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From: Poison Ivan
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 00:59:02 -0400
Very interesting story, Ray. Obviously not a fun read, but I don't suppose it's supposed to be, huh?
I think the part I liked the best is Adam's fear of the "little naked girl." I think this is especially appropriate for a virgin teenage boy. Yuko's sudden sexuality would be intimidating to him, and there would also be the fear of doing something that he had never done before. I would like to see you play that up even more.
To me, the story felt a little out of balance with respect to the point of view. The first three-quarters is all told from the point of view of Adam, and then the rest of the way, the POV switches between Adam and Yuko. Yuko's POV is good and probably necessary to get your story across, but I'd like to see her get some air time earlier in the story.
As for Adam, I think I need more of a chance to get to know him before the story kicks in with Yuko. The shock of seeing a naked girl on the couch is lost a little because we don't know what frame of mind Adam was in before he stumbled across her. Your instincts were good, I think, because you said:
... he was thinking that exam week was unfair ...
But this wasn't enough for me. What else would a 17-year-old boy have on his mind as he stumbled through the door? Exams, sex, annoying parents, sex, the annoying exchange student who is always hanging around, sex, football, sex .... it's a good opportunity to hint a little more about who Adam is.
I thought Adam's side of the sex scene was great. His ignorance comes across loud and clear, but you do it in a way that doesn't sound judgmental. Adam's not a bad guy, he's just poorly informed, and he has no basis for knowing if he's doing it right. What do you expect when he gets his information from stag films and locker-room talk?
A thought-provoking story, Ray. Thanks for sharing it.
From: Shon Richards
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 12:24:19 GMT
Hmmmmmmmm.
Ok, bear with me on this one. My problem with this story is that it lacks a conclusion. You have a woman begging to be devirgined, and then it turns into horror as she gets what she asked for, but not in the way that she wanted. It ends with her sobbing, and the male clueless. I guess you could call that an ending, but to me if lacks a certain something. The last line needs to tie it up, or make a statement. Having Yuko sob is almost redundant. You know it was an awful experience, you don't need to reinforce it at the end. What the end needs is something to compound his cluelessness, like him being proud.
My other problem is with the two things I want to compliment. I like the fact that she pretty much rapes him at the beginning. There is something sexy and exotic about Asian women over-powering their lovers. Or maybe that's just me :) I also like how silly the whole premise is. The young lady is stuck in a house with a teenager who has never hit on her. The idea is almost cartoonish, which works for the beginning. In other words, what I like is the two elements that make this story fun.
Then the horror begins. What started as a silly tryst between two students, turn into a horrible-scarring moment. Through sheer incompetence, the boy brutalizes the girl. Now the story is a morality play. Morality plays is fine, but now I'm scarred because I've been set up by the first half to expect something light. The 180 in tone is a squick in itself.
That's a problem with ASSD. If I was watching the Lifetime channel and I saw this beginning, I would predict the end. Newsgroups don't give us adequate warning about story tones or topics. We have to rely on the codes and more importantly, how these stories start. Most uncoded stories turn me off in the first paragraph by their tone. In this first page, I see light humor and nudity, which makes me want to commit to the end. The end cheats me. I would rather not read a story of this type, but I wouldn't know this until I read it.
Perhaps the non-rom code should have warned me. However, when the beginning set this story up to be a simple de-virgining, I thought that was where the lack of romance kicked in. I demand my squick-misleading refund :)
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: 14 Aug 2001 17:16:06 GMT
Things to work on:
1. proof reading/control of language and grammar
2. POV violations
Things I liked:
1. Yuko's voice and her martial arts move
2. The "stranded" ending
For anyone who is interested, a few details:
Adam's hands were full as he fumbled the front door open and stepped into his home's long narrow living room. Books, notebooks and folders from every one of his high school
[every one--might do better to be specific: all six]
subjects overloaded his arms; he even had a folder held in his teeth. Kicking the door closed, with his heel, he was thinking
[The tone is comic--interesting contrast to later.]
that exam week was unfair when he stopped dead in his tracks. His arms fell limply to his sides and his mouth fell open.
[Again the comic tone.]
Everything he had just been carrying fell to the floor with a crash and a slither as notebooks and papers slid across the
[Slither is a nice word. The sentence should end there. The picture is enough. More is overkill.]
floor in an ever widening pool. Some few coming to rest against the back of the over-stuffed plush couch at the end of the little entry foyer.
[This sentence fragment needs to be fixed. In fact the sentence is not needed except to introduce the couch: A small sheaf of biology notes made it all the way to the foot of the over-stuffed couch at the end of the entry foyer.]
Laying along the top of that couch back, directly in the breeze of the small oscillating fan was Yuko, a Foreign Exchange Student.
[Generally, important words are best put at the beginnings and ends of sentences. Save Foreign Exchange Student for later: Lying atop the back of the couch in the breeze of a small oscillating fan was Yuko.]
His family was hosting Yuko here while his sister Kat was hosted by her family in Japan. What had so shocked him at the scene was that Yuko was practically naked. Well, she *was* naked, except
[Interesting that sister Kat never comes up again in this story. An
opportunity? Anyway, you need to stretch this passage and punch it at the same
time:
Yuko was the foreign exchange student his family was hosting while his sister
Kat was hosted by her family in Japan. Except for a very skimpy pair of
white, french-cut panties, Yuko was naked.]
for a very skimpy pair of white, french-cut panties. With one leg laid along the back of the couch and the other spread to one side, it's foot upon a coffee table against the back of the couch, he had a wide open view. Perhaps it was the angle of
[The structure of your sentence leads us to believe that *his* legs are on the couch. You need to proof-read more carefully.]
[Her legs were spread so that one lay along the back of the couch and the other stretched towards the credenza behind the couch. Sunlight lanced through the window, illuminating her upper legs, her hips, and especially the thin white panties.]
[I notice that the level of detail is greater here in the beginning of the story. To an extent, that's appropriate, but I think there is room for critical detail at the end.]
his vision, or the sun lancing through a window and falling on her upper legs and hips, but the thin white panties appeared so sheer he could almost see the fine individual hairs of her dark muff. He definitely could see the prominence of her pussy and the definitive cleft down it's center.
[Good vision. The diction seems slightly muddled. Does muff go with cleft?
Muff might be the boy's word. Cleft is closer to the tone you've picked up
until now.
The bright light made the panties seem so sheer that he could see the
individual hairs beneath. He definitely could discern the shape of her pussy
and the delicate cleft down its center.]
Forcing himself to avert his gaze, Adam found his eyes travelling across the slight roundness of her lower belly, into the narrowness of her waist her navel playing hide and
[Probably "to" not "into." Punctuation after "waist."]
seek as she breathed, winking at him. His eyes crossed the edge of her breastbone and rested briefly on her small half- handful breasts. There was almost no areole, but the nipples
[Don't pile on adjectives. Either small or half-handful. I'd prefer small.]
appeared thick. Each breast quivered from side to side
["There was" is a weak construction. Don't mince. "Appeared" is also weak as it's used here. Give it to us hard. This might be the place for fragments: ... on her small breasts. Thick nipples. No areolae.]
slightly as her chest heaved and jerked. Forcing himself to
[quivered doesn't seem to go with heaved and jerked. I don't know that you
need "side to side" -- the quivering is probably enough:
Her breasts quivered as her chest heaved and jerked.]
look away from the sight he finally looked into her face. Her eyes were upon and she was looking at him and the mess of his books on the floor. Tears were rolling from her bloodshot eyes, and her breath was coming in gulps . . . she'd been sobbing.
[Do you mean 'upon him' or 'open'? This description is busy. Do you mean to
have her looking everywhere? You don't need to tell us about his eyes, just
show us what he sees:
Her eyes were open and bloodshot, her cheeks were moist from tears, her breath
was coming in gulps. She'd been sobbing.]
[All in all the setup is vivid and interesting. A good opening.]
Forgetting his books, her nudity (well almost), and his concerns
over exams, Adam took two paces forward. "Are you okay, Yuko? What's the trouble?"
[You don't really need to tell us what Adam is forgetting. His engagement is evident enough from what he says and does. So start with: Adam took two paces forward.]
Chest heaving she sobbed once before bursting out, "You are!" She rolled away, down, onto the couch and continued to her feet walking away from him.
[The motion is good until "continued to her feet." Continued is the wrong word.]
"Huh? Wha . . ." Adam was almost stuttering in surprise. Yuko
[The dialogue says it. You don't need the tag.]
was still moving away as he started around the couch to follow her. "Hey, wait a minute. What do you mean . . . Will you STOP?! What do you mean I'm the problem? What have I done? Why . . ."
Yuko turned and looked at him, Her slightly slanted brown eyes seeming to bore deeply into his. Her eyes widened for a moment and narrowed, her nostrils flared then pinched almost closed as her lips pursed tightly together.
"What haven't you done, you mean." She was standing tense, her elbows slightly bent, her hands almost fists; though not quite, almost resting on her hips; though not quite. "I've been here for five months. I'm going home to my family in five weeks. I'm seventeen years old, I'm still a virgin, and it's ALL YOUR FAULT!"
The tears started again as Yuko turned away again, starting for the stairs.
"Wha. . . How. . . Are you Nuts? Are you completely crazy? What the hell are you talking about?"
Yuko stopped and turned slowly around. There was a bright gleam in her eyes that looked dangerous. Her face seemed completely expressionless yet determined. Slowly she started walking towards Adam, speaking as she moved.
[I don't see "completely expressionless."]
"Do you know why I came to your country? Why I volunteered to exchange student? I will tell you why. I came to America to have sex. That's why!" She seemed to be stalking him and Adam backed
[Don't need "She seemed to be stalking him and."]
slowly away from her advance. "In my home, all of the boys are afraid of my family and no one will fuck with me."
[I like Yuko's voice.]
Adam was shocked and nervous. I her five months under his
[In her five months]
family's roof she had never said a curse word. Never been anything but friendly and soft spoken. Yet here she was stalking him like a lioness and using the *F* word too.
"I have read many American romance books, heard many stories of horny American boys. When this exchange was offered me I think I can come here and be virgin no more. But what do I find? You and your father have told all the boys not to touch me! YOU have all your football friends watching to protect me. I am so kakkasouyou . . . What is word, Frustrate, yes. You make me so frustrate . . ."
"Frustrated"
"What?" a puzzled look in her eyes at the correction.
[No tag--or make it a sentence.]
"Frustrated. The word you want is frustrated"
[...frustrated."]
Her eyes seemed to darken and Adam found himself very much
[You use "seem" excessively. It's often weak. Her eyes darkened. Adam found ...]
afraid of this little naked girl at that moment. At six-one,
["at that moment" is implied--omit]
he stood head and shoulders above her small five-two frame, yet he was afraid.
"Frustrate, frustrated. I don't care!" She was advancing again and Adam put out one hand as if to hold her back. With a couple of swift moves, Yuko grasped his wrist and twisted using her leg to sweep his feet from beneath him. Almost before he realized, Adam was flat on his back amongst his fallen books and Yuko, this little slip of a girl was sitting on his chest. The crotch of her white panties was inches from his face and he found he could smell her.
[This is my favorite moment in the story. It needs some slight clean-up:
"Frustrate, frustrated. I don't care!" She was advancing again.
Adam put out one hand as if to hold her back. With a couple
of swift moves, Yuko grasped his wrist and twisted while using her
leg to sweep his feet from beneath him. Before he knew it, Adam was flat on his
back
amongst his fallen books, and
Yuko, this little slip of a girl, was sitting on his chest. The
crotch of her white panties was inches from his face. He
could smell her.]
[I'd be tempted to add: He could smell the excitement of her sex.]
Wrapping her fingers in his coarse black hair she bent over him as she lifted his face towards hers. "You are going to correct your mistake. You are going to make it good, now." Reaching between her own legs she grasped her panty crotch and with a wrenching twist tore the flimsy material, baring herself to his gaze. "Here is the itch. Here is the hurt. You will make it all better for me now and you will start by kissing my hurt." Pulling up on his hair she slid forward until her pussy met his lips.
Adam was at a loss for a moment. The circumstances completely bewildering him. His teen libido was quick to recover though and he found himself beginning to kiss, to tongue and taste this wonderful thing she had presented him with. His body began to react, and reacted even more quickly when she leaned back
[it reacted]
and began squeezing him through his pants.
Yuko found herself getting excited and wet as Adam worked
[The shift to Yuko's POV is a serious breach. You need to show Yuko through the stance you've chosen, essentially through Adam's eyes.]
and her anticipation built. She began fumbling at Adam's belt, unclasping it and straining at the snap on his tight jeans, striving to get at the object of her long unquenched desires. Her interest and intent lasted for all of two minutes. She had just gotten the zipper opened, just pushed her hand inside Adam's boxer shorts to feel him, shin to skin, when it happened.
[skin to skin]
[The work of Adams tongue made Yuko wet. She squirmed and squeezed. Her hand fumbled at Adam's belt. She had it unclasped. She had his tight jeans unsnapped and the zipper opened and her hand inside Adam's boxer shorts, feeling him, when it happened.]
["When it happened" is an interesting pedal point. What I actually expected was that he'd ejaculate.]
Adam's libido and hormones had taken over. At seventeen, he believed himself to be the only virgin in his group of friends. He'd been close many times, getting as far as third base, believing more than once that he was finally to become a man. Then, each time his partner had stopped him, never allowing more than a mutual masturbation session. Now, finally, it was to happen. He was going to become a man today. His partner was not only willing, but she was demanding it from him. He'd seen the pictures, read the books, He was sure he knew what to do. Sucking his index finger into his mouth to wet it, he began sliding it up and down in her slit until he found the gap, the opening at the bottom. Twisting his finger until it started into the opening, Adam stiffened his finger and pushed, burying it to the fist in one move. On top of him, Yuko seemed to freeze in delight her breath catching in her throat.
[punctuation after "delight"]
[A lot of telling all of a sudden. How vital is it for us to know the background? Probably it is important, so then the question becomes: is there a graceful way to embed the history into the 'action' of the story?]
Yuko's secret dreams ended the moment Adam pushed his finger
[POV--you're not telling the story in the same way]
suddenly into her. There was no gentleness to the move. The sudden tearing as the invader ripped through her hymen and the intense pain that accompanied it were enough to immobilize Yuko. The books she read had lied to her. There was no high thrilling sensation, no titillation. There was only the pain. A blinding overwhelming red haze that stopped her breathing and jerked her
[fragment]
head back in it's intensity. Her mouth hung open, her widened
[its]
eyes bulged, and the pain seemed to eat into her very being as Adam slid from beneath her and raised her to her knees.
Getting to his knees behind her and raising Yuko to her knees,
[He's already raised her to her knees once.]
Adam pushed his pants and boxers down his thighs. A few shreds
[The modifying phrase doesn't match the main clause. Kneeling behind Yuko, Adam pushed his pants and boxers down this thighs.]
of Yuko's torn panties had fallen across the bottom of her pussy, hiding it from Adam's view. Taking his hard cock in his
["fallen across the bottom" is awkward. Adam brushed away the shreds of panty which covered part of Yuko's pussy.]
right fist he brushed them away with the fingers of his left hand. So intent was he on his purpose, he did not see the thin trickle of blood on Yuko's pussy. At that point it was doubtful that seeing it would have changed things. Remembering the stag
[Narrator's commentary stands out--if the narrator makes such statements here, we'd expect him to make such statements elsewhere.]
movie he and his friend Billy had *borrowed* from Billy's dad, Adam licked his palm and smeared the saliva over the head of his dick. Then, guiding it to the lips of Yuko's pussy and wriggling it to start entry, Adam pushed suddenly forward and dropped his body across Yuko's back. It seemed abrasive, almost
[dropped his body?]
[What seemed abrasive?]
scratchy like sandpaper, but he did get all the way in as Yuko sank flat to the floor beneath him.
Yuko was just regaining control of her body and was able to
[POV in this passage]
breath again. Tears of pain were streaking her hidden face. Her long dark brown hair hanging to the floor on either side
[fragment]
of her head. Her vision was clearing and she was taking breath to tell Adam they must stop when he jammed his cock into her pain dried pussy. Adam was not over large, but to Yuko it felt
[pain dried?]
as if someone had just forced a telephone pole into her already injured pussy. Adams weight came down on her back, forcing her prone to the floor. Her belly had no more than just touched the
[I thought she already was flat on the floor.]
floor when Adam began to pump in and out of her, very fast and very hard. Each forward thrust seeming to open new avenues of
[fragment]
pain. Each jab causing even more nerves and flesh to scream in protest.
[fragment]
Adam was pumping, humping across the ass of the girl beneath him, driving his hard cock in and out of her pussy. He started to slip out once, but caught himself just in time, the forward stroke driving it back into her depths. It felt rough and dry, not smooth and slippery as the books and his friends had said. Maybe it had something to do with her being Japanese. He'd heard they were different. Eight strokes, nine, ten strokes and he was emptying himself within her. His legs had locked and his body stiffened with the release of his sperm. He found he couldn't move until the spurting was finished, yet as soon as it was his legs and arms would no longer support him and he collapsed across Yuko's back.
Yuko sobbed beneath him.
[The ending leaves me with a stranded feeling. Although part of me yearns for some wrap-up, I think the way you finish has some power. I think you should consider taking out the commentary and taking out Yuko's point of view.]
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: 16 Aug 2001 15:22:07 GMT
Hi! I'm not skipping this, but I'm going to wait to chime in. I've read it a couple of times now, and I'm not at all happy with any response I've written. Let me get some perspective and I'll come in (after the one-week deadline, sorry).
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:12:52 -0600
First, the good stuff. I liked the power of the tale, the expression of secret desires by two people who were too shy or subtle to get them across in other ways. I also 'liked' in the sense of appreciating the quality of the expression, the way that the sad, painful scene came across. Both of them seemed more than sufficiently clueless about what they'd got themselves into. Sex ed (from whatever source) should make it possible for at least *one* of them to handle the situation much better than it happened. Sadly, that doesn't always happen in real life.
I'd like a happy ending, or something a little better from both sides. But that would be an entirely different tale :-) I lack perfect empathy for Adam's situation. I'd like to know more about how he felt about the girl before the situation came up, and why he was (OK, bloodlust in the little head can take over some) totally unaware, and perhaps uninterested, in her reaction. Of course, that might explain why he was still a virgin?
The tale begs for an aftermath. Attempting to force the boy to take her virginity, then finding herself being forced (OK, it was with her consent at the start, and she didn't act to stop it), certainly would make for a complicated "afterglow" situation, but it is one that I'd expect would be interesting. That is part of the limitation of doing a purely short scene as a story, rather than getting more details into a longer piece.
What I'd like to see improved is knowing just a little bit more about the situation. The intro, opening with the naked girl scene, doesn't get far enough into the feelings behind Adam's situation. Did he like the girl? Had he lusted after her, but considered her unavailable because of her dad's rules (which we also don't get to se enough of?) Did he think of her as a sister, and yet, go ahead happily with this new change? It doesn't need to be much, to let us get a better feel for *why* this situation came up as it did.
I also think that when Adam gets lost in his feelings, we need to see him close his eyes and dwell on the sensations, both pleasant and the less than ideal sorts. If it wasn't so pleasant, I'd like to know why he kept on with it, or didn't ask. If he'd had hand jobs, certainly he had some idea of what contact with another person felt like, and the fact that this situation was at odds with expectations would draw his mind off the action.
Unless it was too enjoyable, too demanding, simply too hard to stop once he started. Maybe, he was enjoying taking this chance with the girl who he secretly admired? Perhaps there was some other girl who'd said no, in a rude way, and he imagined getting back with her, and showing her how he really was a man? I don't know, but I feel there is something missing in his desires.
I do think that "It really can hurt if you don't know what you're doing" is very good advice. If it hurts, back off? Adam probably never got that kind of advice from his dad, or friends. We don't know quite enough about that.
Of course, not knowing quite enough about the situation is inherent in a short story. I just feel a need to know just a little more, a sentence or two explaining it.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:23:17 -0600
That's a problem with ASSD. If I was watching the Lifetime channel and I saw this beginning, I would predict the end. Newsgroups don't give us adequate warning about story tones or topics. We have to rely on the codes and more importantly, how these stories start. Most uncoded stories turn me off in the first paragraph by their tone. In this first page, I see light humor and nudity, which makes me want to commit to the end. The end cheats me. I would rather not read a story of this type, but I wouldn't know this until I read it.
The twist is something that bugged me as well. I wanted to have a little more clue about the turn in events, and especially, why Adam felt it was OK for it to go that way. Not just lust; most males have some interest in their sex partners beyond just getting off. At least, I hope they do.
Perhaps the non-rom code should have warned me. However, when the beginning set this story up to be a simple de-virgining, I thought that was where the lack of romance kicked in. I demand my squick-misleading refund :)
The coding, I think, is the issue. It needs a caution code on it, 1st, and maybe even (nc). The ending is semi-consensual at best. Maybe (rough)? But I'd certainly expect a (caution) code on it, if the twist itself is to be kept secret.
Oh, one final comment: the turn-on aspect of the story faded right around the point where her hymen broke. Now, maybe that is intentional, but Adam kept on going, so from his viewpoint it remained a happy situation. Since the story is from his POV, I think we need to see more about how good he felt about it, and maybe even at the end, how he thought it was weird that she'd be sobbing when she'd got what *she* wanted.
Then, we might have a 2nd tale covering how he tried to make it up to her, or she got revenge, or whatever the outcome was.
From: PleaseCain
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: 17 Aug 2001 02:40:28 GMT
Ray,
You've come up with an excellent opening hook, of him dropping his books at the luscious spectacle. It pulls us in right away. You also develop the background further on, without going into a long exposition that stalls the pace of the story -- I constantly try to develop that method, with mixed results, because it's tough to do! Also, I love your insinuation about porno and its effects on ignorant boys. Right on.
For improvements, rethink some of the word usage, things like "in and out of her, very fast and very hard" and "open new avenues of pain" and as well as some other misused words. We all do that. Just keep reading and writing. Pick up a good grammar book. (By the way, has anyone here read "Woe Is I" by Patricia T. O'Conner? The reviews on Amazon sound great.)
The tattered panties being in the way but unobtrusive kind of confused me, for example, but that could all be fixed by editing phrasing and word usage. You probably didn't edit as you would have liked if you only wrote the piece the night before.
Thanks for contributing the story.
Cain
From: Nick
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: 17 Aug 2001 16:01:59 -0700
Well, that doesn't give me much time! Sorry, but I didn't see this til yesterday, and I prefer to let the thing settle for 24 hours before repsonding.
Anyway:
Liked 1) the fact that what started out as a standard sex story which seemed to be based around a fetish for oriental women became a morality tale. This then allowed, even forced, your protagonists to become three dimensional, and gave me something to get my teeth into.
Liked 2)
Everything he had just been carrying fell to the floor with a crash and a slither ....etc.
This whole passage seemed to mark out a style for the story. It could have been a symbolic representation of the rest of the story (though thats stretching it a bit!), or the narrative might have carried on in that style. Unfortunately, standing on its own, it failed to fulfil the potential it could have.
Improvement 1)
I felt the switch was a bit sudden. It happened here:
Yuko's secret dreams ended the moment Adam pushed his finger suddenly into her. There was no gentleness to the move. The sudden tearing as the invader ripped through her hymen and the intense pain that accompanied it were enough to immobilize Yuko.
Apart from the fact that I don't think most women experience quite that level of pain, I think it might have been more effective if her disillusionment had been gradual. If the pain had been portrayed as unexpected rather than severe, you then had the scope to build up to the experiences which were more severe. As it was, I had to go back and reread it because the switch in direction was too sudden for e.
Improvement 2) I felt you described the girl in too much detail. It's always a good idea to let the reader build up their own image. For one thing, if they don't like the one you're trying to present it allows them to come to terms with the rest of the story more easily. (I like big areoles! Why couldnt I have them?)
Nick
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 06:49:40 GMT
It's Friday? Already?
It's damn near Saturday.
I'm not going to try to avoid repetition on this one. Because what was good was very, very, good. The story idea.
I also liked the big football player being set upon by little Yuko and her martial-arts skills.
1 Instead of "work on," I'm going to suggest a more radical change. Why don't you tell the whole thing from Yuko's perspective?
She is frustrated.
Time's running out.
She ambushes Adam.
He takes over.
It hurts.
2 The other suggestion is more in the line of working on. That is the order of presentation of information. It would be nice to know that he is a huge football player before we need to know it.
And a THIRD person observer might see the books go flying before he notices the nude girl; clearly Adam would see Yuko first. Else the books wouldn't go flying. So the description of Adam's progress and state of mind needs to be followed by Yuko, and then the books.
What happens is that:
1 Yuko is naked on the couch.
2 Adam sees her.
3 His books go flying.
What we are told is:
1 His books go flying.
2 Adam sees Yuko.
3 Yuko is an exchange student (NIT: a foreign exchange
student would be studying economics).
4 Yuko is naked.
[I blame this on the movies. I blame too much on the movies.]
Now, if one wishes to keep Adam as the POV character, it could be done his way, among many: before he opens the door he could be worrying about getting his studies done while the distracting Yuko is in the house.
From: Ray
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:00:47 -0400
Let me start this by agreeing with everyone, that as submitted, I felt the story sucked. I failed to do any type of prrofreading or editing before the submission, and your comments illustrated exactly how silly such a thing was.
Second, You are all correct, the name does not fit the story, but as I mentioned at the top of the post, the story submitted was NOT what I started writing. A little over halfway through, the characters seemed to take over writing their own story, acting and reacting on their own, granted, it was all in my head . . . but you all know it happens when you are doing this type of thing.
Third, Yuko's extreme reaction to the pain involved, was a conscious choice on my part. Although the vast majority of women do not find the experience nearly as intense as described, there are those who do. In some ways this was written for them . . . though they and most women out there will not enjoy the story as written. They will hate any thought of identifying with the results.
I have finished 90% of the rewrite, and after restarting it half-a-dozen times and being totally dissatisfied with the results, I decided to redo it with a shifting POV, though I began it earlier and continued it throughout. It seems to flow a little better now and does better cover both sides of the experience. Whether it works, each will need to decide for themselves.
I still need to add to the ending, give it a more final scene. Though I have absolutely no desire to ever continue this story or do anything similar in the future, I refuse to try making excessively major revisions. It seems to make it's own statement, even if it is one that most people won't like.
Thanks for all your input, as I said I've read every posting I've seen (except for the belated reaction from Alexis, of course.) I reconginse the sense in most of what was said, and actually used a couple of the more minor suggestions. As is our want, as authors, I did choose to ignore some entirely . . . the story had developed it's own essence and I opted to remain true to it . . . however disgusting that is.
I'll submit again, down the road, hopefully something not quite as offensive to all.
From: Nick
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: 18 Aug 2001 17:33:59 -0700
Third, Yuko's extreme reaction to the pain involved, was a conscious choice on my part. Although the vast majority of women do not find the experience nearly as intense as described, there are those who do. In some ways this was written for them . . . though they and most women out there will not enjoy the story as written. They will hate any thought of identifying with the results.
I disagree, though the enjoyment in this context probably wont be sexual. I suspect many women will identify with the experience of losing their virginity as described (though not being female I am hardly an authority!) and as such will enjoy the story on a different level.
I'll submit again, down the road, hopefully something not quite as offensive to all.
Well, Ill be happy to look and comment.
Nick
From: Poison Ivan
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 01:22:15 -0400
I would definitely *not* say the story sucked! It's funny, because it reads very much like you explain how it was written. A little meandering at first, and then the story found a direction about half way through, and then it got where it was going.
The story is a good one. Good characters, a good plot. In my mind, the problems are pretty minor. All it needs is a refocussing, a good rewrite now that you know where you're going with it.
Personally, I liked the ending of this story. I wouldn't want to see it change much.
And I am eager to see what you come up with!
Thanks for giving us the chance to dissect your story, Ray!
From: Poison Ivan
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 12:07:48 -0400
Incidentally, I write my own stories this way, too. I always start out flailing randomly at the keyboard until something starts moving somewhere, and eventually I stumble across an ending. Then I have to go back and fix the beginning.
The worst part is getting rid of stuff at the start that you really like, but doesn't fit the story any more :-(
From: Desdmona
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: 19 Aug 2001 16:22:36 GMT
Just wanted to let you know that I didn't find your story offensive. Provacative, yes. Sad, yes. As you stated some stories just write themselves. Not all stories are happy, but they still demand to be told.
I look forward to seeing your finished project.
Suggestions, and let me restate-that's exactly what our comments are, they are suggestions-they are meant as food for thought. If they've provided that, then we've succeeded.
Our inclination as writers is to say, "if this was my story, I would ...!"
Well, of course it isn't our story. But because we've taken the time to read *your* story, think about what we'd do differently, it allows us to re-examine *our* stories as we write them.
And that is another one of our goals in this Fish Tank project.
Thanks Ray for giving us this chance.
Desdmona
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:53:22 -0600
I disagree, though the enjoyment in this context probably wont be sexual. I suspect many women will identify with the experience of losing their virginity as described (though not being female I am hardly an authority!) and as such will enjoy the story on a different level.
A lot of women heard horror tales about very bad first times, and I suspect that imagining that kind of thing, or sympathizing with those who have such experiences, is natural.
Truthful things are sometimes offensive, but not always unappreciated. It isn't the sort of tale I'd read for pure pleasure, but as part of a larger story (with a happy ending, I'd hope) it could fit in. The contrast between the very bad times and the good ones can make life seem even better.
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:32:52 GMT
I failed to do any type of prrofreading or editing before the submission, and your comments illustrated exactly how silly such a thing was.
Inappropriate, rather than "silly." That was just what we wanted in EWW, raw stuff with which we could play. A fish in the tank -- on the other hand --is a story which the author has taken as far as he can.
A little over halfway through, the characters seemed to take over writing their own story, acting and reacting on their own, granted, it was all in my head . . . but you all know it happens when you are doing this type of thing.
Characters *are* insubordinate snots; aren't they?
Third, Yuko's extreme reaction to the pain involved, was a conscious choice on my part. Although the vast majority of women do not find the experience nearly as intense as described, there are those who do. In some ways this was written for them . . . though they and most women out there will not enjoy the story as written. They will hate any thought of identifying with the results.
Well there are three sources of pain here. Tearing the actual hymen, which doesn't seem to be a serious problem most of the time in the modern USA. Stretching the vaginal passage, which can be a problem despite a total lack of hymen. And the dry vaginal passage.
The last seems to me the most painful part of this story, and the least likely. Yuko is lying there nearly nude plotting her rape of Adam; this doesn't generate *any* lube?
I'll submit again, down the road, hopefully something not quite as offensive to all.
I didn't find the story particularly offensive. Yuko plans something; she tries it out; she gets hurt but not seriously damaged. People get hurt from ill-planned maneuvers every day. Real people.
I'm much more offended by the opposite tendency, the (reluc) story[1]. Because those propound that if you just force the girl it will come out all right at the end.
[1] I've been resisting suggesting the code (culer) for this story. I shan't make that suggestion, since people would think I was seriously speaking from my position as FAQ maintainer. Note that I did *not* make any sort of suggestion along that line.
From: Ray
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 17:10:05 -0400
Uther,
I did 'describe' the situation as "her pain dried pussy . . ." and although it may not be much spoken of, most women can vouch for the fact that sudden reversals in emotion, unexpected intense pain and even unexpected mood changes can result in a halt to the production of natural lubricants, so that the sensation (even if only momentary) can suddenly be that of a 'dry fuck'.
Something that can be unpleasant for both parties involved. Though potentially even more so for the woman. Especially if their partner is really doing nothing to properly stimulate them.
Ray
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From: Desdmona
Re: Saving Her Honor, by Ray
Date: 13 Aug 2001 21:45:39 GMT
Hmm.. What to say. In my Winter Wonderland of existence I want every story to have a happy ending. Of course, they don't, and in fact, some of the best stories end sadly.
This is a very touching and enlightening story that kind of reminds us to be careful what we wish for.
I think a glance after a couple of days have gone by might catch things like missing letter. eg
I'm sure the "I" is suppose to be In. I think these are the kind of mistakes we all make and exactly why I like to have a proofreader.
I think you did a good job, Ray, with Yuko's language-making her English broken. You possibly could do it in a couple of more places. Especially since she's only been in the US for 5 months.
All in all, a compelling story that makes you think about some of the unpleasant things that can happen when sex is for sex alone and not for committing to a relationship.
Thanks Again Ray for submitting!