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From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Hell Hath No Fury, by Alexis Siefert and Shon Richards
Date: 15 Apr 2003 02:31:17 GMT
Thank you, all, for the responses. Give me a few days to mull them over again, and I'll have a semi-literate response!
Alexis.
"You must have a key made!"
"It won't do any good, I just lose them all"
- - - Holly Golightly, "Breakfast at Tiffany's"
http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: PleaseCain
Re: Hell Hath No Fury, by Alexis Siefert and Shon Richards
Date: 07 Apr 2003 20:24:33 GMT
Not much to fix here, it's such a sensual piece of writing to savor. I particularly like your foreshadowing - the foreboding in her stomach as she reaches for the flower, her daydream about the kidnapped princess, Demeter's saying "let her enjoy ... the comfort of not knowing the dark in the world." There are other clever touches, like your imagining the starving masses arriving in the underworld, and Persephone's wisely forgoing the pomegranate seed but being tripped up by an entirely different kind of seed.
I suppose that if I had to suggest improvements, one might be to cut a few of the more indulgent phrases like "she let her legs carry her through the grass" and "or perhaps molten lava" (right after you compare to molten gold - which is it?). But there aren't many of these missteps: you connect a whole lot more than you miss. Maybe the conclusion resolves too quickly. I'm trying really hard to find something here.
This is great stuff, a real pleasure to read. Thanks!
Cain
From: Bradley Stoke
Re: Hell Hath No Fury, by Alexis Siefert and Shon Richards
Date: 8 Apr 2003 00:41:29 -0700
Alexis and Shon
An interesting and entertaining reworking of the myth of Persephone and her sojourn in the kingdom of Hades. Took me right back to my distant memories of the Greek myths and legends, giving an interesting but plausible twist to the events which kept Persephone in Hades for half of every year.
It was a difficult trick to pull off and it's also difficult to know how well it succeeded. It is hard to know exactly how one can capture the human nature of the Gods, especially when the dialogue supporting it is contemporary American vernacular, but attempts at a more timeless, culture-independent speech would have sounded stilted and awkward. It is also quite a trick to capture the nature of Gods, something which suited the heroic narrative styles of the Hellenic age (and recaptured in more recent epics like "Paradise Lost"), but not really suited to the more democratic narrative style of our age. We no longer take for granted the accepted values and commonplaces of Ancient Greece, but perhaps it's the very attempt to recreate perfect males, perfect females and conflicts of olympean dimensions that attracted Shon and Alexis to collaborate on this venture.
There were no obvious faults with this piece and not a single typo or syntactical error got in the way of the story flow. At the end of the story, I felt curiously disengaged from the events and the characters, but that is only to be expected in fiction of this kind which deals with supernormal beings. I liked the portrayals of the landscape and my favourite passages were definitely those which described the owls and trees. I felt no warmth for Hades, but he is a familiar figure from fiction I've read which describes the "dominant" male of sub-dom fantasy. Personally I'm glad that he expressed his dominance in a relatively conventional manner.
So, all in all, a brave and accomplished work. Not really involving, but certainly interesting. Well-paced, scattered with some gorgeous descriptive prose and let down only slightly by a dialogue that was not really wholly timeless.
Bradley Stoke
www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke
From: Katie McN
Re: Hell Hath No Fury, by Alexis Siefert and Shon Richards
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 08:25:58 GMT
Hi bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley Stoke),
On 8 Apr 2003 00:41:29 -0700 I noticed your interesting post:
[ ... ]
I felt no warmth for Hades,
Ahem, I can believe I missed this opportunity.
[ ... ]
It's Me! Katie McN
<katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: Conjugate
Re: Hell Hath No Fury, by Alexis Siefert and Shon Richards
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 01:05:28 -0600
It was a good one. I did not notice the repetition of the names of the characters, and I thought the pace was smooth and even. I thought the characters were well-drawn.
I would change the following phrase:
the cry of the bird had laid like a nest egg in her belly.
Make "nest egg" into "egg," and I'll stop thinking about 401K and Keogh plans. Perhaps just "egg" would suffice. Also, the word "laid" might better be "placed" or "lodged" since I first read that sentence as "laid an egg in her belly," or something like that.
The only other quibble is not really worth making; but you might consider showing a few more signs of Demeter's pique besides the large number of new "clients" for Hades. For instance, as Demeter is fuming:
Demeter could feel the anger begin to boil within as she slowly became certain of her daughter's location. There was only one realm in which she had no hold, in which she had no control. Her one and only daughter, her reason, her inspiration was with Demeter' brother, Hades.
In her anger and fear, Demeter paid no notice to the sudden chilling of the air.
You might add something along the lines of, "Around her, brown blossoms were falling unnoticed to the chill Earth," or, I don't know, a description of empty fields and a failed harvest, or something like that. This is just an impulse because I needed two things to improve.
Thanks for the story; I'm glad you wrote it.
Conjugate
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:v92sm1qro4vcac@news.supernews.com ...
The following story is a joint effort by two well-known authors. It's a complete story at 5,972 words. It was written two years ago. Both authors feel they've made major growth in their writing ability since then. Before conquering some editing, or major rewrite of their own, they'd like to get our objective perspective on what this story needs to be better.
FishTank Guidelines Apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
Complete Guidelines may be found at:
http://www.asstr.org/~Desdmona/FishTank/base/storyguide.html
Questions? Comments? Submissions? Suggestions? Direct them to me@desdmona.com or Desdmona22@aol.com.
***************************************** Hell Hath No Fury (Myth, MF) By Alexis Siefert alexisinalaska@aol.communicate And Shon Richards shonrichardshsd@earthlink.net
From: oosh
Re: Hell Hath No Fury, by Alexis Siefert and Shon Richards
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 00:25:55 +0000 (UTC)
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in
news:v92sm1qro4vcac@news.supernews.com:
I thought the build-up was effective: Persephone feeling stirrings within her, Demeter sensing that something was afoot, Hades's brooding presence.
I also thought the sex scene was nicely done. I particularly liked "parted the gates of her underworld". I found it a very effective scene. I also noticed the use of sequences of short sentences to describe the mayhem that resulted from Demeter's anger. That was effective too.
I have to say that this really does need a good proof-read. From memory, "lead" was repeatedly used for "led" (the past tense of "to lead"); "loose" for "lose"; "gate" for "gait", and "Cerebus" for "Cerberus".
At times it did feel too colloquial, and I don't feel that that fits the subject. Several sentences ended " ...as well." I wanted to sieze on one colloquialism that causes me to stumble whenever I see it, and it occurs here and elsewhere in this story:
As much as the
world held temptations for her, she was too terrified to reap them herself.
The use of "as much as" to mean "although" is strange to me. I've heard "much as ..." in conversation, e.g. "much as I like you ..." but more usually it's "much though ..." But whenever I hear or read "AS much as" I start off reading it as "to the same extent that ..."
O.
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Hell Hath No Fury, by Alexis Siefert and Shon Richards
Date: 11 Apr 2003 03:05:55 GMT
Hell Hath No Fury (Myth, MF)
Clever title.
I like a lot of the language, the flow, the sex.
Some suggestions:
The presentation of characters first as pronouns hints of affectation. Why do it? The narrator knows the names. What reason can there be for hiding them, even for a few moments? To delay our entry into the world of myth?
Generally I enjoy the language and the sentences. There are some exceptions. In the paragraph that follows there are a couple of loose conjunctions. The first sentence below contains at least three significant errors. The second sentence, among its rough spots, also contains a loose conjunction. The final clause of the final sentence might be missing a critical comma; in its present state, I find it almost unreadable.
He stepped away from the tree, and had any casual onlooker been present it would appear that he seemed more to pull out of the bark rather than move from behind it. Such was his nature. The rough covering of the trunk matched the deep bronze of his skin, and it was difficult to discern from a distance where one stopped and the other began. But as formidable as his presence was, as overpowering as he appeared in the flesh, he moved with a grace known only to the gods. The fluidity of his motions brought to mind the flowing of melting gold, or perhaps molten lava; the empty space he left behind, the feeling of absence that was palpable when he moved betrayed his divine origins. <<
Persephone felt, rather than saw, the presence behind her. Whipping her head around, her hair flying around her face like the wind, she knew that she 'almost' saw whatever it was watching her. She could feel the renewed presence of dread deep in her stomach, as though the owl had again passed over her on silent wings, temporarily blocking the protective warmth of the sun; leaving her with the unpleasant knowledge that all was not well in the world. <<
These "arounds" do make me dizzy. Is that the idea? I think I'd put "it" in quotes, not "almost." Or I'd leave "it" out altogether. As it is, I can't read the sentence. I don't understand the semi-colon after sun.
In other words, there are lots and lots of little things to fix.
More serious, I think, is that this story becomes, with the appearance of Hecate, something of an exercise, a proof. The fullness of scene disappears and the pace becomes that of mathematics or a stint on the treadmill.
This seed was Hades' and Persephone wanted to consume it all.<<
Yes, the story should have ended with those words. We know enough now. Strike everything after and the story is to my taste vastly improved.
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Altan
Re: Hell Hath No Fury, by Alexis Siefert and Shon Richards
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 00:36:43 GMT
On Mon, 7 Apr 2003 08:44:39 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote:
Hell Hath No Fury (Myth, MF)
By Alexis Siefert alexisinalaska@aol.communicate And Shon Richards shonrichardshsd@earthlink.net
Positive comments are easy for this one. First, the re-telling of a myth as a modern told story, gives it much more depth. The texture that is added in this way makes the tale come alive.
Second, duh, it is simply well written and a pleasure to read. Even if Alexis and Shon feel they could and should improve it, I found the story as it is a good one.
As far as improvement suggestions are concerned, better authors than myself have commented already, so my ideas may be more of a matter of personal preference, but I felt confused as to what the actual core of the story was. Obviously one aspect is the interpretation of the seed that Hades gives Persephone - the common version uses a different form of seed to bind Persephone to the underworld. But this is not all the story is about, is it? The myth of Persephone is one of deception, seduction, and in the end compromise. At least, that is what I understood when I did a Google search - I don't know that much about Greek mythology. And I didn't "get" it from this story. So, rather than ending the story earlier as I believe Bradley suggested, I wonder if it wouldn't be more appropriate to expand the second part, to really draw a picture of what happened AFTER Persephone gives in to Hades. And if the second part is expanded, maybe cut from the first part. The description of Persephone before she is abducted by Hades sets the atmosphere, but at least for my personal feelings goes on for too long. Not being familiar with the myth to start with, I kept wondering what this was all about.
The second suggestion for improvement is a very specific one:
Persephone knew that she could not be more unable to pass him had he been standing in the middle of the path,
Remove the double negation "not .. unable". I had to read it twice, then apply software developer's logic, to make sure I was correctly understanding what was intended.
Anyway, thanks for sharing this and making me think about it :-)
A.
http://www.asstr.org/~altan/
From: Tesseract
Re: Hell Hath No Fury, by Alexis Siefert and Shon Richards
Date: 12 Apr 2003 01:08:34 -0700
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:<v92sm1qro4vcac@news.supernews.com> ...
***************************************** Hell Hath No Fury (Myth, MF) By Alexis Siefert alexisinalaska@aol.communicate And Shon Richards shonrichardshsd@earthlink.net
The Greek Myths - the real story. This is a wonderful version and you do it justice.
On the first reading I noticed some slightly archaic, formal language reminiscent of the King James Bible. Those phrases fit the subject, which demands grand language. But I can't find an example right now. You need more language like that.
Mat said the story got rushed about half way through. I agree with that observation but not his solution. You can't stop the story there as you are retelling a classic tale and most carry through to the end. Some of us may not know the original; if I ever did I've long forgotten it. As Altan suggested, you should expand the second half.
Back to language with a specific item. I'm not sure that 'cock' fits the style you want. A more poetic phrase would be better. You may also want to change 'clitoris', though it does fit a bit better.
As you expand the story you may want to bring up that Zeus is also Demeter's brother, and also Persephone's father.
Are you planning to retell other myths?
Tesseract
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Hell Hath No Fury, by Alexis Siefert and Shon Richards
Date: 19 Apr 2003 02:39:12 GMT
Tesseract writes:
Mat said the story got rushed about half way through. I agree with that observation but not his solution. You can't stop the story there as you are retelling a classic tale and most carry through to the end. Some of us may not know the original; if I ever did I've long forgotten it. As Altan suggested, you should expand the second half.
Expanding the ending might work. I'm not sure I agree that just because the story is based on a myth, the author is required to tell the whole thing. Why? That the author seemingly felt it mandatory to "complete" the story this way was part of what made me call it an exercise. But more important, it seems to me, the story ends naturally and brilliantly at that "midpoint."
Many beginning writers' stories start too early and end too late. I know how hard it is for any writer to cut off the end (or the beginning), but I also know it's a good thing to consider.
And after the cut, if things still seem wrong, just put in: And they lived happily ever after.
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Hell Hath No Fury, by Alexis Siefert and Shon Richards
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 13:35:43 -0500
On Mon, 7 Apr 2003 08:44:39 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote:
I'd like to make better comments. I may do so later, but for now, all I have to say is that it is a great reworking of the myth. Fun to read. Nothing obvious stands out as a negative.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
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From: Katie McN
Re: Hell Hath No Fury, by Alexis Siefert and Shon Richards
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 15:01:54 GMT
Hi Alexis, Shon and "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com>,
On Mon, 7 Apr 2003 08:44:39 -0400 I noticed your interesting post:
There are many things to like. Here are the two that I notice first:
o You did a nice job telling a myth in a way that caused me to feel that the story really came from days gone by. The story and the way you told it has a realistic feeling which made for an enjoyable read, thought provoking and well thought out, but not overdone or cliched as is so often the case when modern writers pay homage to the past.
o I was quite impressed with your ability to collaborate. I've tried to do this twice. It worked fine when I wrote with Anna T, but my attempt with Michael D38 resulted in a failure when there was so much promise for the story we planned. You were able to write the story in one voice and I was not able to say this part came from one author and that from the other even though I'm familiar with both of you writing styles.
Here are some suggestions for your consideration:
o Your repeated use of character names seems overdone to the point that it became irritating to me. You use the name Persephone 56 times including various paragraphs where it shows up two or three times. It almost seems like you're calling attention to your use of this name and some of the other names. This detracts from my enjoyment of the story.
o I feel the opening paragraph can use some work.
"It wasn't a loud sound, the distinctive screech of the owl in the distance, but it sent a slight chill through her shoulders as she reached to pick the white blossom from the tree. She tucked the flower behind her ear, burying it in the gentle folds of her hair. As its fragrance surrounded her she tried to shake off the small feeling of foreboding that the cry of the bird had laid like a nest egg in her belly. She turned and scanned the field behind her, looking for her mother."
It strikes me as overly complex and some of the wording is convoluted and confusing.
You might consider starting with "An owl screeched in the distance." The fact that the narrator knows it's an owl suggests that the word distinctive is unneeded. This could be followed by "It wasn't a loud sound, but it sent a chill through her body." Chill through her shoulders seems odd, why just there? According to the writing books in my library, events in fiction should be presented serially even when it's obvious that they could occur at the same time. This provides the reader with the opportunity to digest each action individually which is how most published stories are presented. Combining a chill in her shoulders and her picking a blossom is a problem for me. First, because the events are reported as happening at the same time which violates the one event at a time fiction tradition. Second, even if one wanted to combine story events for some literary reason, it would seem that the chill would in fact momentarily stop the person from picking the flower while she reflected on the screech and so these should be reported as two events in any case.
I have a problem with the image "folds of her hair" which causes me to see hair folded like a sheet. This odd image makes a confusing reference in the next sentence stand out even more. The use of 'its' suggests that the fragrance is related to the hair yet I get the feeling it might relate to the blossom. I think the sentence starting with "As its fragrance" needs to be completely rewritten. Once again we see two events merged into one causing a confusing sentence. The second part of the sentence was a challenge for me to read and it would seem that it might be better to delete the second part of the sentence and add a new sentence to cover this information.
I normally don't like stories where the author tries to tell a story as if it was an ancient myth. Very often the story seems pompous and stilted, almost a poor satire of the original. You didn't fall into this trap and ended up with a story that I found interesting. Thanks for sharing it with the rest of us as Fishtank entry #83.
It's Me! Katie McN
<katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com