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From: Bradley Stoke
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 13 Aug 2002 10:48:32 -0700
csmsix
Along with Smilodon and Al Steiner, you rank as one of the top writers
on Stories OnLine. "NanoVirus" is really doing the business and
scoring numbers that us lesser mortals can only envy. So, it was with
some trepidation that I started reading your story. What can I learn
from you?
Well. What I mostly learnt is that the readers who liked your stories
would hate mine. That's just a fact. I also learnt how many people
must be attracted to a world from what seems to me a fairly
chauvinistic, American view of things. Long necked beers, flouncy
girls in bars, arrogant and unattractive men who make it big in
technology and screw the rest of them, talky oddball aliens who
haven't changed in four billion years, jokey asides about democracy,
religion and eugenics that are guaranteed to annoy the shit out of
people like me. But none of these are reasons for the story not to be
enjoyed. It just means that I'm immediately prejudiced and therefore
an unreliable critic.
But I'll try.
I think the reason for the success of the story may well be the
concept of a virus that clears out a load of people. So, a plus must
be the device. There are a lot of stories like that. I rather liked
"Day of the Triffids". And like "NanoVirus" it was also set in an
unrepresentative corner of the world. You never see a story of this
kind set in Afghanistan or Mali, though if the chips were down the
toughest people in the world almost certainly don't live in South East
England or Texas.
Another plus is probably the shift of focus, from interstellar
cruisers just beyond Jupiter to a pre-apocalypse America. I guess a
story told wholly from the perspective of portentous aliens would soon
get dull, so we have the chance to see a more microcosmic view of
things. Perhaps Jack becomes more of an everyman (rather than an
insufferable arse) as the story progresses?
What I think needs improvement? Well, I haven't read the other
reviews, but I guess I won't be the only one to point out the curious
shift from third to first person perspective: Jack moves from being
the third person protagonist to being the narrator.
Another thing that needs improvement is repetition. We get a reprise
of how come Jack is wealthy in his conversation with Karen (who has
just had the "best fuck" of her life. No surprises there.) However,
this won't be the first science fiction story I've read which repeats
itself unnecessarily. I once read one of the Gor novels, and Norman
(whose writing style, politics and view of women are all rather
appalling) can't help reprising almost word for word one of his
incredibly juvenile arguments for male superiority (the women nodding
in awe-struck agreement). So set against Norman and Gor, csmsix and
"NanoVirus" is Tolstoy. Or Emile Zola. Or Dostoevsky.
So, well done!
Bradley Stoke
http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:27:48 GMT
"Bradley Stoke" <bradley_stoke@hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:aaacc8d6.0208130948.70963835@posting.google.com ...
What I think needs improvement? Well, I haven't read the other
reviews, but I guess I won't be the only one to point out the curious
shift from third to first person perspective: Jack moves from being
the third person protagonist to being the narrator.
The plot device constructed by the alien scene is the basis for the whole
story and I thought putting it first and getting it out of the way would be
simplest. I still think so. I didn't want to write the whole thing as a
detached narrator. Jack couldn't see the aliens. So I narrated the aliens,
moved to earth with a little narration and then slipped the change of
perspective in using dialog, which I think is always tantamount to a change
of perspective, to camouflage my evil deed.
Another thing that needs improvement is repetition. We get a reprise
of how come Jack is wealthy in his conversation with Karen
Karen certainly had no expectation of leaving the Broken Spoke with a cowboy
and ending up in his six bedroom ranch house. I would have felt it strange
if she hadn't remarked on it. You probably noticed but were too kind to
mention that I'm not really a technically talented writer; at best I'm a
storyteller that is typing. Repetition is bound to crop up.
I once read one of the Gor novels, and Norman
(whose writing style, politics and view of women are all rather
appalling) can't help reprising almost word for word one of his
incredibly juvenile arguments for male superiority (the women nodding
in awe-struck agreement). So set against Norman and Gor, csmsix and
"NanoVirus" is Tolstoy. Or Emile Zola. Or Dostoevsky.
A little like saying Saddam Hussein wasn't nearly so bad compared to Hitler.
I do thank you for the thought.
I also thank you for taking your time to read this chapter of NanoVirus and
for being generous enough to give me your comments on what you read.
cmsix
"Bradley Stoke" <bradley_stoke@hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:aaacc8d6.0208130948.70963835@posting.google.com ...
csmsix
Along with Smilodon and Al Steiner, you rank as one of the top writers
on Stories OnLine. "NanoVirus" is really doing the business and
scoring numbers that us lesser mortals can only envy. So, it was with
some trepidation that I started reading your story. What can I learn
from you?
Well. What I mostly learnt is that the readers who liked your stories
would hate mine. That's just a fact. I also learnt how many people
must be attracted to a world from what seems to me a fairly
chauvinistic, American view of things. Long necked beers, flouncy
girls in bars, arrogant and unattractive men who make it big in
technology and screw the rest of them, talky oddball aliens who
haven't changed in four billion years, jokey asides about democracy,
religion and eugenics that are guaranteed to annoy the shit out of
people like me. But none of these are reasons for the story not to be
enjoyed. It just means that I'm immediately prejudiced and therefore
an unreliable critic.
But I'll try.
I think the reason for the success of the story may well be the
concept of a virus that clears out a load of people. So, a plus must
be the device. There are a lot of stories like that. I rather liked
"Day of the Triffids". And like "NanoVirus" it was also set in an
unrepresentative corner of the world. You never see a story of this
kind set in Afghanistan or Mali, though if the chips were down the
toughest people in the world almost certainly don't live in South East
England or Texas.
Another plus is probably the shift of focus, from interstellar
cruisers just beyond Jupiter to a pre-apocalypse America. I guess a
story told wholly from the perspective of portentous aliens would soon
get dull, so we have the chance to see a more microcosmic view of
things. Perhaps Jack becomes more of an everyman (rather than an
insufferable arse) as the story progresses?
What I think needs improvement? Well, I haven't read the other
reviews, but I guess I won't be the only one to point out the curious
shift from third to first person perspective: Jack moves from being
the third person protagonist to being the narrator.
Another thing that needs improvement is repetition. We get a reprise
of how come Jack is wealthy in his conversation with Karen (who has
just had the "best fuck" of her life. No surprises there.) However,
this won't be the first science fiction story I've read which repeats
itself unnecessarily. I once read one of the Gor novels, and Norman
(whose writing style, politics and view of women are all rather
appalling) can't help reprising almost word for word one of his
incredibly juvenile arguments for male superiority (the women nodding
in awe-struck agreement). So set against Norman and Gor, csmsix and
"NanoVirus" is Tolstoy. Or Emile Zola. Or Dostoevsky.
From: celia batau
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:49:10 -0700
hi cmsix and Des!
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message
news:ulfdn4e7o5k74@news.supernews.com ...
1) 2 positive suggestions
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
pozzie one: the idea is good. :) kind of like Douglas Adam's earth. :)
pozzie two: focusing on one character's experience is good. we got a sense
that something was coming and it gave us time to get used to the character.
:)
neggie one: kind of too much exposition stretched out over too much time. we
think maybe it might be stronger if the whole beginning were condensed and
the details of the experiment became visible during the actual
sterilization.
neggie two: the dialogue was unlike what we're used to, so maybe it's just
our experience. but it felt carnivorous, if that makes sense?
yay cmsix! :)
-cb
NanoVirus ( MF oral)
By cmsix
cmsix@hotmail.com
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:53:47 GMT
"celia batau" <pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
news:1029268176.190891@news1.bigplanet.com ...
pozzie one: the idea is good. :) kind of like Douglas Adam's earth. :)
Having someone with your talent say that I even made her recall Douglas
Adam's for a second made my day.
neggie one: kind of too much exposition stretched out over too much time.
we think maybe it might be stronger if the whole beginning were condensed
and
the details of the experiment became visible during the actual
sterilization.
I know that the aliens were a strange beginning to a sex story. They did get
a little wordy but I just couldn't shut them up. Thankfully that was the
last of them for a few hundred years. They're off to be "somebody else's
problem".
neggie two: the dialogue was unlike what we're used to, so maybe it's just
our experience. but it felt carnivorous, if that makes sense?
I love this comment and I just wish I could understand it better. I'm
begging you to give me just one more hint. I'm off my chair and am typing
this on my knees, I promise. Do you mean the dialog of the aliens or all the
dialog, including Jack, Nancy and Karen? Please don't tell me that the
answer is 42.
I can't tell you how happy I was when I saw that you had read my chapter and
commented on it. I appreciate it.
cmsix
"celia batau" <pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
news:1029268176.190891@news1.bigplanet.com ...
hi cmsix and Des!
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message
news:ulfdn4e7o5k74@news.supernews.com ...
1) 2 positive suggestions
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
pozzie one: the idea is good. :) kind of like Douglas Adam's earth. :)
pozzie two: focusing on one character's experience is good. we got a sense
that something was coming and it gave us time to get used to the
character.
:)
neggie one: kind of too much exposition stretched out over too much time.
we
think maybe it might be stronger if the whole beginning were condensed and
the details of the experiment became visible during the actual
sterilization.
neggie two: the dialogue was unlike what we're used to, so maybe it's just
our experience. but it felt carnivorous, if that makes sense?
yay cmsix! :)
-cb
NanoVirus ( MF oral)
By cmsix
cmsix@hotmail.com
From: celia batau
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:25:26 -0700
hi cmsix!
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LBz79.9511$LO1.743609@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
"celia batau" <pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
news:1029268176.190891@news1.bigplanet.com ...
neggie two: the dialogue was unlike what we're used to, so maybe it's
just
our experience. but it felt carnivorous, if that makes sense?
I love this comment and I just wish I could understand it better. I'm
begging you to give me just one more hint. I'm off my chair and am typing
this on my knees, I promise. Do you mean the dialog of the aliens or all
the
dialog, including Jack, Nancy and Karen? Please don't tell me that the
answer is 42.
um, it's just that in our experience, guys will come on, say stuff, but it's
all in this playing inuendo. if a guy comes on and just says "i wanna f'ck,"
then there's just a flat turn-down.
so reading the straight-forward dialogue between the characters was kind of
like the lions coming over to prey on the gazelles, but the gazelles were
also hip-hopping over to sit with the lions. :)
hope that made sense. :)
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
Everybody jumping jumping
Everybody dancing now
Ay Mama
Que sabrosa tu estás
-Rabanes
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:02:17 GMT
Thank you again, it makes perfect sense now.
cmsix
"celia batau" <pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
news:1029695154.70867@news1.bigplanet.com ...
hi cmsix!
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LBz79.9511$LO1.743609@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
"celia batau" <pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
news:1029268176.190891@news1.bigplanet.com ...
neggie two: the dialogue was unlike what we're used to, so maybe it's
just
our experience. but it felt carnivorous, if that makes sense?
I love this comment and I just wish I could understand it better. I'm
begging you to give me just one more hint. I'm off my chair and am
typing
this on my knees, I promise. Do you mean the dialog of the aliens or all
the
dialog, including Jack, Nancy and Karen? Please don't tell me that the
answer is 42.
um, it's just that in our experience, guys will come on, say stuff, but
it's
all in this playing inuendo. if a guy comes on and just says "i wanna
f'ck,"
then there's just a flat turn-down.
so reading the straight-forward dialogue between the characters was kind
of
like the lions coming over to prey on the gazelles, but the gazelles were
also hip-hopping over to sit with the lions. :)
hope that made sense. :)
-cb
-
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
Everybody jumping jumping
Everybody dancing now
Ay Mama
Que sabrosa tu estás
-Rabanes
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:16:58 -0600
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:25:26 -0700, "celia batau"
<pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote:
hi cmsix!
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LBz79.9511$LO1.743609@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
"celia batau" <pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
news:1029268176.190891@news1.bigplanet.com ...
neggie two: the dialogue was unlike what we're used to, so maybe it's
just
our experience. but it felt carnivorous, if that makes sense?
I love this comment and I just wish I could understand it better. I'm
begging you to give me just one more hint. I'm off my chair and am typing
this on my knees, I promise. Do you mean the dialog of the aliens or all
the
dialog, including Jack, Nancy and Karen? Please don't tell me that the
answer is 42.
um, it's just that in our experience, guys will come on, say stuff, but it's
all in this playing inuendo. if a guy comes on and just says "i wanna f'ck,"
then there's just a flat turn-down.
Unless you're at a party or someplace where you're planning to do
that. But most bars and clubs don't seem to be quite that open.
If a girl comes on to a guy and says the same thing, the response
might not be so flat a turn down. But it may not be yes, either. I
know, that might be strange, but I've seen it happen. Too open a
request can feel threatening, demanding, and scary.
so reading the straight-forward dialogue between the characters was kind of
like the lions coming over to prey on the gazelles, but the gazelles were
also hip-hopping over to sit with the lions. :)
hope that made sense. :)
It does to me. While loosing inhibitions via intoxication can help
bring out the hunting instints in the "gazelles," the interaction
tends to be more subtle. There are exceptions, and maybe this place
is one of those where it is OK for both sexes to play hunter.
Now, I think it is OK for both to do it. A lady doesn't want to be
stuck going home empty-handed just because no guy was brave enough to
make an offer.
In this story, that wasn't likely to happen. So it is a change
perhaps from the places that celia hangs out, and maybe lots of the
rest of us too?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:11:20 -0600
On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:10:59 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com>
wrote:
Number one thing, and this is a repeat but I think it is worth it:
the long introduction needs to get moved later in the story. You want
a few paragraphs to set up the situation, but not much detail. Just
that the use of a nanovirus has been approved, the situation is
unusual, and the scientists find it both interesting and sad.
Then, when the deaths from the prisons are reported on TV, stick in
a commentary from the alien observers, commenting on the reaction and
progress.
But don't foreshadow the result. The story is told, once you get
past this opening, from Jack's POV, directly. As a reader of the
story, I don't need to know all about what bad things are coming. The
"omens" from the intro should be enough, no details yet needed.
Once it gets past the opening stages, explaining things can be done.
It changes the tense, you have them reporting on the results going "as
expected" rather than projecting them.
I don't want to overdo repeats, but the switch from 3rd person to
1st is confusing. Of the two, 1st is better for all of Jack's story
if you want to tell it strongly from his POV. But 3rd is better if
you want to show more. Whichever you pick, I just can't get into the
switch midway.
Jack's life and relationships are a bit grating. A bit of "mirror"
in it, but frankly though he seems interesting he also seems to have a
somewhat shallow life, for all the money and success. Now, if you
present it from his POV purely, then he can give his own
justifications strongly. Not sure if you can pull that off so well if
you stick with 3rd person, which might be why you changed it during
the sex parts.
Jack's Broken Spoke seems like a nice country music meeting place,
though I found it odd that he'd think he wouldn't pick up a "chick"
there. I know a local place of similar name and nature, and I'd
figure that the pick-up rate would be rather decent. Especially given
how things work out when he goes in there; it seems set up to be the
sort of place where singles meet for casual flings.
Still, where are the friends trying to get him out of his single guy
playboy rut? Where are the obsessed ex-girlfriends and golddiggers
who got really close to him, and aren't at all unhappy with his
drop-em-dead policy? But that is probably outside the scope, though I
think he'd have something to say about those who just didn't go away
when he kicked 'em loose.
On other things, though ... maybe, open with the 3rd person
background of Jack, then go to space (still for just a little bit, not
all the gory details), then back on earth in first person - switching
POV then changes from the start as off-camera narrator, the 2nd as the
omniscient "space citizen," the last as a very personal, direct first
person POV of Jack himself.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:03:45 GMT
Jeff
Thank you for taking the time to read this chapter of NanoVirus and for your
detailed descriptions of the things you think might imporve it.
"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d599245$0$1421$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...
On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:10:59 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com>
wrote:
Number one thing, and this is a repeat but I think it is worth it:
the long introduction needs to get moved later in the story. You want
a few paragraphs to set up the situation, but not much detail. Just
that the use of a nanovirus has been approved, the situation is
unusual, and the scientists find it both interesting and sad.
Then, when the deaths from the prisons are reported on TV, stick in
a commentary from the alien observers, commenting on the reaction and
progress.
But don't foreshadow the result. The story is told, once you get
past this opening, from Jack's POV, directly. As a reader of the
story, I don't need to know all about what bad things are coming. The
"omens" from the intro should be enough, no details yet needed.
Once it gets past the opening stages, explaining things can be done.
It changes the tense, you have them reporting on the results going "as
expected" rather than projecting them.
I don't want to overdo repeats, but the switch from 3rd person to
1st is confusing. Of the two, 1st is better for all of Jack's story
if you want to tell it strongly from his POV. But 3rd is better if
you want to show more. Whichever you pick, I just can't get into the
switch midway.
I guess I just don't understand your thinking here. As it is the aliens are
over and done with for the next five hundred years. You suggest that I break
them up and have them slip back in later. Later you bring up the switch of
perspective again. How would I bring the aliens back without switching
again?
One of the points of the aliens appearing once, having their say, and
leaving
is to let the readers know that this is not just a stroker. This also
establishes
the plot device in terms that are as believable as possible considering its
revelations. Those that aren't interested in a little plot with their
titillation will find out fast and can leave without having wasted much of
their time. Those that read on must swallow some of the premise and are soon
prepared for the leap of faith that they must take to continue.
Jack's life and relationships are a bit grating. A bit of "mirror"
in it, but frankly though he seems interesting he also seems to have a
somewhat shallow life, for all the money and success.
And I am so glad to see that this point is noticeable.
Now, if you present it from his POV purely, then he can give his own
justifications strongly. Not sure if you can pull that off so well if
you stick with 3rd person, which might be why you changed it during
the sex parts.
Exactly. And I have pulled it off. Anyone that keeps reading for their own
reasons after this part is not bothered by the change of perspective if they
even notice it. The perspective changed exactly after Nancy gave Jack a
rundown on Karen. She had some dialog, Jack had some, then she had her
little "synchronizing our watches" speech. When Jack left to ask Karen to
dance he was in command of the narrative. It is probably my inexperience as
a storyteller that I just can't fathom the taboo against changing
perspective.
Jack's Broken Spoke seems like a nice country music meeting place,
though I found it odd that he'd think he wouldn't pick up a "chick"
there. I know a local place of similar name and nature, and I'd
figure that the pick-up rate would be rather decent. Especially given
how things work out when he goes in there; it seems set up to be the
sort of place where singles meet for casual flings.
Jack didn't go there expecting to find a woman because it wasn't the type of
baited field he usually hunted over. In my experience drunken cowgirls
aren't nearly as impressed by financial well being as the type of women that
Jack generally preyed on. I apparently failed to leave enough clues of
Jack's feelings of insecurity, about his attractiveness to women, which he
was using his nouveaux riches status to alleviate.
Still, where are the friends trying to get him out of his single guy
playboy rut? Where are the obsessed ex-girlfriends and golddiggers
who got really close to him, and aren't at all unhappy with his
drop-em-dead policy? But that is probably outside the scope, though I
think he'd have something to say about those who just didn't go away
when he kicked 'em loose.
Jack will never have any male friends; a moderately trusted acquaintance is
the best you can ever hope for on this front. I'm afraid that is directly
traceable to my influence. Jack doesn't like men. He's never had any real
pals and he doesn't want any.
On other things, though ... maybe, open with the 3rd person
background of Jack, then go to space (still for just a little bit, not
all the gory details), then back on earth in first person - switching
POV then changes from the start as off-camera narrator, the 2nd as the
omniscient "space citizen," the last as a very personal, direct first
person POV of Jack himself.
In my view the aliens have to come first. They are needed to establish the
plot device and they are an additional help to warn off readers that aren't
interested in any plot. I am considering toning them down a little but the
gist of what they have to say has to stay.
Thank you again for taking your time to go over this chapter and for
pointing out
things that need improvement.
cmsix
-
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:24:30 -0600
On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:03:45 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote:
Jeff
Thank you for taking the time to read this chapter of NanoVirus and for your
detailed descriptions of the things you think might imporve it.
"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d599245$0$1421$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...
On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:10:59 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com>
wrote:
I don't want to overdo repeats, but the switch from 3rd person to
1st is confusing. Of the two, 1st is better for all of Jack's story
if you want to tell it strongly from his POV. But 3rd is better if
you want to show more. Whichever you pick, I just can't get into the
switch midway.
I guess I just don't understand your thinking here. As it is the aliens are
over and done with for the next five hundred years. You suggest that I break
them up and have them slip back in later. Later you bring up the switch of
perspective again. How would I bring the aliens back without switching
again?
The aliens' discussion seems parallel in time with Jack's day. As
for switch of perspective, it isn't a problem when there is some
transition between them which lets the reader know about the change,
and maybe suggests why it happens. So, if there are interludes
between scenes, there is plenty of space there for a scene change. As
the lovers sleep, go back to the alien discussion.
One of the points of the aliens appearing once, having their say, and
leaving
is to let the readers know that this is not just a stroker. This also
establishes
the plot device in terms that are as believable as possible considering its
revelations. Those that aren't interested in a little plot with their
titillation will find out fast and can leave without having wasted much of
their time. Those that read on must swallow some of the premise and are soon
prepared for the leap of faith that they must take to continue.
I like having a story open with action, or at least not go on
forever before getting some. On the other hand, I'm as likely to go
on a bit in the introduction too. So the question is, is the story
more effective with a chapter's worth of alien activity with no human
reference? Sure, the aliens go away. But they do talk on a lot about
things which aren't especially relevant to the story as shown, not
until the next chapter or later.
Now, if you present it from his POV purely, then he can give his own
justifications strongly. Not sure if you can pull that off so well if
you stick with 3rd person, which might be why you changed it during
the sex parts.
Exactly. And I have pulled it off. Anyone that keeps reading for their own
reasons after this part is not bothered by the change of perspective if they
even notice it. The perspective changed exactly after Nancy gave Jack a
rundown on Karen. She had some dialog, Jack had some, then she had her
little "synchronizing our watches" speech. When Jack left to ask Karen to
dance he was in command of the narrative. It is probably my inexperience as
a storyteller that I just can't fathom the taboo against changing
perspective.
Ok, think of it like this: You're watching a movie, and you see the
room, the people talking. The camera maybe moves from looking at one
or another, back and forth.
Suddenly, it shifts, showing you what one character sees. No longer
are you watching the entire scene. You're attached to their eyes,
look where they look, go where they go.
The change jars. It isn't that you cannot change perspective, it is
that you need something to separate the two POVs. I don't think it is
fatal, it is just that "frequent readers" are likely to notice it,
even if they don't mention it.
Part of the "secret" of writing is making the writing style part of
the background. Now, one way to think of a story for those familiar
with TV and movies (or even stage plays) is to look at the situation
as a sequence of scenes. With, in long stories, breaks for
"commercials," or just spots to give the reader/viewer a chance to
breathe.
When the situation changes, when time passes quickly, when one
character has a sudden blazing change of heart or whatever, you get
some clues to cue you about that. the POV changes need cues,
something to let the reader know that things are changing.
Jack's Broken Spoke seems like a nice country music meeting place,
though I found it odd that he'd think he wouldn't pick up a "chick"
there. I know a local place of similar name and nature, and I'd
figure that the pick-up rate would be rather decent. Especially given
how things work out when he goes in there; it seems set up to be the
sort of place where singles meet for casual flings.
Jack didn't go there expecting to find a woman because it wasn't the type of
baited field he usually hunted over. In my experience drunken cowgirls
aren't nearly as impressed by financial well being as the type of women that
Jack generally preyed on. I apparently failed to leave enough clues of
Jack's feelings of insecurity, about his attractiveness to women, which he
was using his nouveaux riches status to alleviate.
Still, where are the friends trying to get him out of his single guy
playboy rut? Where are the obsessed ex-girlfriends and golddiggers
who got really close to him, and aren't at all unhappy with his
drop-em-dead policy? But that is probably outside the scope, though I
think he'd have something to say about those who just didn't go away
when he kicked 'em loose.
Jack will never have any male friends; a moderately trusted acquaintance is
the best you can ever hope for on this front. I'm afraid that is directly
traceable to my influence. Jack doesn't like men. He's never had any real
pals and he doesn't want any.
I suppose, I just have a hard time getting into him like that. OK,
maybe, it just seems sad that he's avoided friendship and love up
until now.
On other things, though ... maybe, open with the 3rd person
background of Jack, then go to space (still for just a little bit, not
all the gory details), then back on earth in first person - switching
POV then changes from the start as off-camera narrator, the 2nd as the
omniscient "space citizen," the last as a very personal, direct first
person POV of Jack himself.
In my view the aliens have to come first. They are needed to establish the
plot device and they are an additional help to warn off readers that aren't
interested in any plot. I am considering toning them down a little but the
gist of what they have to say has to stay.
Thank you again for taking your time to go over this chapter and for
pointing out
things that need improvement.
Well, people like the story, which is a good thing. I think I'd
break up the intro segment, but if you think it works better as a
solid block intro, I can see that. I've a tendency to put background
stuff in the beginning of long stories. My estimate is that only
about a third of this first chapter is filled with aliens, the rest of
it is all on Earth. The aliens do kind of talk like political
commentators, and I don't know if that is intentional. Once you get
passed them, and into the action, things move along nicely.
Still, my feeling is more a "what I'd do" maybe than what works
best. I looked at a couple of my long pieces, and figure I spent
maybe three pages on intro out of about sixty pages. That felt long to
me, though I was setting up character info, not global background,
and not really a separate story scene without a direct relationship to
the rest.
The other thing is that, for most of the rest of the tale, the intro
isn't so relevant. The effects on the characters is, and from their
POV it doesn't matter why it happened. Because of that, the single
block intro might not matter so much. Those bored with it can just
skip ahead to the 'good stuff' :-)
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Tesseract
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 18 Aug 2002 04:53:09 -0700
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<lDA79.9596$LO1.751028@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> ...
...
Now, if you present it from his POV purely, then he can give his own
justifications strongly. Not sure if you can pull that off so well if
you stick with 3rd person, which might be why you changed it during
the sex parts.
Exactly. And I have pulled it off. Anyone that keeps reading for their own
reasons after this part is not bothered by the change of perspective if they
even notice it. The perspective changed exactly after Nancy gave Jack a
rundown on Karen. She had some dialog, Jack had some, then she had her
little "synchronizing our watches" speech. When Jack left to ask Karen to
dance he was in command of the narrative. It is probably my inexperience as
a storyteller that I just can't fathom the taboo against changing
perspective.
I noticed the change. That you meant it is a good thing. These kinds
of things often show up as accidents that should be fixed in a later
edit.
There is nothing wrong with changing perspective as you did, if there
is a good reason for it. But the reader needs to know that it was
deliberate. Some kind of a break would be nice. Say, start a new
chapter when you change perspective. I can't think of any good reason
that the change had to happen exactly where it did - in mid stride.
If you think it necessary then do it a bit earlier or a bit later. Or
start Jack's story in the first person.
You could also put the alien stuff in a separate chapter. What's that?
You say the chapters would be too small? I've read some good novels
that had both chapters of about thirty pages and chapters of one page.
A chapter is as big as it has to be. Since you want to keep the alien
stuff as a prologue it would fit in a separate chapter. And you may
want to expand it with some of the suggestions other people have made.
Tesseract
From: Iconoclast
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:12:55 GMT
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote on Mon 12 Aug 2002 06:10:59a
This is our second submission for this week. It is the first
chapter of an already successful story on StoriesOnline. It's
been the recipient of a Silver Clitoride. But the author would
like us to take a look and give him our opinions. It is 6,194
words in length. FishTank Guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive suggestions
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
I read it. I must have liked it, because I want to read the other
chapters. But. I find it difficult to review a segment, a chapter
of a longer work, because I know that some of my questions may be
answered. I deliberately avoided reading the other parts so as not
to influence me. A story, as a story, posted in the Fish Tank or
anywhere has to stand by itself. Otherwise why bother? A fragment
is just that - a part of a whole. As well, I saw that this story in
its entirety garnered the number one spot in StoriesOnline. Since I
can no longer access StoriesOnline because I didn't go there often
enough to keep my membership valid (I think I read one story when I
joined and didn't go back for six months. I really hate html.) I
couldn't have read the rest if I wanted to.
Anyhow, let's review this part as a complete story.
I liked the change of view from the aliens to the story of the
humans. There was a definite shift in style and concept from the
alien story, which read like a dry bureaucratic report, to the
point of view of our protagonist, which was far more human
sounding.
The sex was hot, and well described though it didn't go over the
top. A very definite plus in this setting.
So, I liked the sex description, I even liked the protagonist
somewhat, and I liked the POV change from the aliens to Jack. I
found no grammar or spelling errors worth mentioning.
What I didn't like. The polemics. When the aliens are discussing
who goes and who stays we get: out - "all incarcerated criminals",
"all other criminals", "all political decision makers" as well as
"all members of militaries" and "all policing personnel". "All
religious leaders and religious teachers will be terminated." This
all sounded more like an Ayn Rand discussion group than a story. I
just wasn't convinced that an alien species would care.
Even more critical, the linchpin of all that happens next, is the
reason for the sterilization of the planet. We are given no reason.
These guys have a geological time horizon. We find out that this
particular experiment has been going on for 4 billion years. We are
told that one of their passing ships sent in a report. What sort of
report? We don't find out. Anyway, without any clue as to what the
report said (did they conclude the humans were a threat? A pain in
the ass? They picked their noses?) the decision to wipe out the
human race is made. Abruptly, with no further discussion of the
topic at hand, we find out that:
"I assume that if no progress has been made we will sterilize
the planet and it will be reseeded later." Ergit said.
Harsh. Progress in what? Consequently we have no idea why Jack
would survive (I presume he does) or the criteria other than those
automatically terminated because they don't meet some unknown alien
standard.
I liked the characters (other than the aliens) enough to want to
read more, so that makes the story successful. I approach the 1:4
male to female ratio with some trepidation. Sounds like too much
wish fulfillment. Good job, cmsix.
Iconoclast
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:57:39 GMT
Iconoclast
Thank you for reading NanoVirus. I know it is long for the Fish Tank and I
appreciate you taking the time to comment on it.
"Iconoclast" <kreisthornNOSPAM@shaw.caNADA> wrote in message
news:Xns926A3F7F9F5kreisthornNOSPAMshaw@24.69.255.211 ...
This is our second submission for this week. It is the first
chapter of an already successful story on StoriesOnline. It's
been the recipient of a Silver Clitoride. But the author would
like us to take a look and give him our opinions. It is 6,194
words in length. FishTank Guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive suggestions
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
I read it. I must have liked it, because I want to read the other
chapters. But. I find it difficult to review a segment, a chapter
of a longer work, because I know that some of my questions may be
answered. I deliberately avoided reading the other parts so as not
to influence me. A story, as a story, posted in the Fish Tank or
anywhere has to stand by itself. Otherwise why bother? A fragment
is just that - a part of a whole. As well, I saw that this story in
its entirety garnered the number one spot in StoriesOnline. Since I
can no longer access StoriesOnline because I didn't go there often
enough to keep my membership valid (I think I read one story when I
joined and didn't go back for six months. I really hate html.) I
couldn't have read the rest if I wanted to.
Anyhow, let's review this part as a complete story.
I liked the change of view from the aliens to the story of the
humans. There was a definite shift in style and concept from the
alien story, which read like a dry bureaucratic report, to the
point of view of our protagonist, which was far more human
sounding.
The sex was hot, and well described though it didn't go over the
top. A very definite plus in this setting.
So, I liked the sex description, I even liked the protagonist
somewhat, and I liked the POV change from the aliens to Jack. I
found no grammar or spelling errors worth mentioning.
What I didn't like. The polemics. When the aliens are discussing
who goes and who stays we get: out - "all incarcerated criminals",
"all other criminals", "all political decision makers" as well as
"all members of militaries" and "all policing personnel". "All
religious leaders and religious teachers will be terminated." This
all sounded more like an Ayn Rand discussion group than a story. I
just wasn't convinced that an alien species would care.
The aliens didn't care. The details of who is right or who is wrong are
below their consideration. The whole civilization is to be destroyed. Anyone
that they think will bring back the old or help bring it back will be
terminated.
Even more critical, the linchpin of all that happens next, is the
reason for the sterilization of the planet. We are given no reason.
These guys have a geological time horizon. We find out that this
particular experiment has been going on for 4 billion years. We are
told that one of their passing ships sent in a report. What sort of
report? We don't find out. Anyway, without any clue as to what the
report said (did they conclude the humans were a threat? A pain in
the ass? They picked their noses?) the decision to wipe out the
human race is made. Abruptly, with no further discussion of the
topic at hand, we find out that:
"I assume that if no progress has been made we will sterilize
the planet and it will be reseeded later." Ergit said.
"Unfortunately it is also projected that their political systems will have
effectively strangled hope for out of system exploration."
What else could aliens want from us. The aliens obviously have the power to
do
with us as they want. They have started life on one of their planets. The
life they started has mired itself in its own concerns and is not
progressing as a species to join its creators.
The aliens don't care about political or religious systems. They hope for an
organized political system that uses most of its resources to advance the
specis. They are ambivalent about religion and assume that at some point in
time facts will rear their ugly head and deal with religion.
They kill the criminals since they are by definition nonproductive. They
kill not some of the political, business and religious leasers, but all of
them, giving the survivors tabula rasa for the new civilization that they
must produce. The military and police must go to make sure that the old
order is not simply restored. They want a sentient species that is advancing
toward off world exploration. They don't want to direct them or micro manage
them. They want the monkeys to type out their own masterpiece.
I wanted the readers to gather this for themselves. I assume I haven't given
enough clues and will be going over it again.
Harsh. Progress in what? Consequently we have no idea why Jack
would survive (I presume he does) or the criteria other than those
automatically terminated because they don't meet some unknown alien
standard.
I know it isn't explained in detail. The only real criteria for
survivors, excepting anomalies, are intelligent physically robust breeding
age humans. If they have been previously apolitical, all the better.
I liked the characters (other than the aliens) enough to want to
read more, so that makes the story successful. I approach the 1:4
male to female ratio with some trepidation. Sounds like too much
wish fulfillment. Good job, cmsix.
If you do happen to read any more of it you will find that 1:4 men to women
doesn't begin to describe Jack's trials.
Thanks again for taking your time to read and comment on NanoVirus and for
helping me locate things that I should explain more thoroughly.
cmsix
From: Iconoclast
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:50:43 GMT
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote on Sat 17 Aug 2002 04:57:39p
The aliens didn't care. The details of who is right or who is
wrong are below their consideration. The whole civilization is
to be destroyed. Anyone that they think will bring back the
old or help bring it back will be terminated.
Even more critical, the linchpin of all that happens next, is
the reason for the sterilization of the planet. We are given
no reason. These guys have a geological time horizon. We find
out that this particular experiment has been going on for 4
billion years. We are told that one of their passing ships
sent in a report. What sort of report? We don't find out.
Anyway, without any clue as to what the report said (did they
conclude the humans were a threat? A pain in the ass? They
picked their noses?) the decision to wipe out the human race
is made. Abruptly, with no further discussion of the topic at
hand, we find out that:
"I assume that if no progress has been made we will
sterilize the planet and it will be reseeded later." Ergit
said.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Unfortunately it is also projected that their political
systems will have effectively strangled hope for out of system
exploration."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Aha, I skipped over that. A little more emphasis in the story on
this pivotal reason would make a world of difference. It would
provide a logical objective. I'm not sure (hell, I'm for sure not
sure) that this would provide sufficient reason for me, but it
would be a plausible reason that I could accept for an alien
mindset.
What else could aliens want from us. The aliens obviously have
the power to do
with us as they want. They have started life on one of their
planets. The life they started has mired itself in its own
concerns and is not progressing as a species to join its
creators.
The aliens don't care about political or religious systems.
They hope for an organized political system that uses most of
its resources to advance the specis. They are ambivalent about
religion and assume that at some point in time facts will rear
their ugly head and deal with religion.
They kill the criminals since they are by definition
nonproductive. They kill not some of the political, business
and religious leasers, but all of them, giving the survivors
tabula rasa for the new civilization that they must produce.
The military and police must go to make sure that the old
order is not simply restored. They want a sentient species
that is advancing toward off world exploration. They don't
want to direct them or micro manage them. They want the
monkeys to type out their own masterpiece.
I wanted the readers to gather this for themselves. I assume I
haven't given enough clues and will be going over it again.
I think that would be good. On the other hand, I saw the movie
"Signs" the other day. Your reasons given above are miles ahead of
a movie company that spent millions on writers and stars and
directing to achieve nothing. At its base is a cheezy script that
comes right out of 1950s paranoia, with aliens that have all the
ferocity and ultimate power of the villains in a Beach Blanket
movie. I still think that we should hold ourselves to a higher
standard, but there seems to be a powerful lack of writing
standards these days, and discrimination on the part of viewers.
Iconoclast
From: john
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 14 Aug 2002 23:10:35 -0700
I got into the scifi bit which is an accomplishment for me. About
the only science fiction I've seriously read is a somewhat beaten up
copy of a Kilgore Trout novella. This author is no Trout. Trout
would have killed off all the lawyers and tele-marketers and used-car
salesmen way before the criminals. Nevertheless, it worked for me.
Someone who reads or writes this genre should tell me why it works?
By rights, 1600 words of stilted dialogue ought to put one right to
sleep. It didn't. In the end I was sorry to see their starship
thingy cleared for takeoff.
I liked the premise though. (The older that one gets, the easier it
is to smile about the extermination of the human race. <g>) The
seeding and sterilization ploy twigged my fancy. Dumb question
though. If it's a 2, 000,000,000 year process (in the streamlined
version) what kind of "promise" could be shown in a mere 500 years?
It led me to believe this part just might be fiction.
I reckon chapter 2 or 3 will hog tie the rich man to the aliens. It
took my breath away a bit to actually "drawl" after listening to Ergit
and Inglan roboticaly converse. The list of lovely redneck comments
too long to list. But ...
My dick was harder than times in twenty-nine.
should win a prize. (Ok, Brad. Fursure an American Prize.) No matter
that the comparison is antithetical, the accent is pure molasses and
grits.
Whahooo.
John
From: Gary Jordan
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 15 Aug 2002 07:39:10 GMT
Up scope in the Fish Tank. :)
Disclaimer: I have read all thirty (30) chapters published so far at Stories
Online. I can't address this chapter alone, out of context, knowing how the
story progresses. That said:
Two positives.
I like the overall theme of an alien race being disappointed with their attempt
to play god and rather than just taking a do-over, trying to salvage the best
of the batch.
I like the protagonist, Jack. He does his best to care for everyone that comes
within his sphere.
Two recommendations for improvements:
The aliens just don't seem ... real. (Well, duh, somebody is saying - they're
aliens.) They have the technology, the drive to "seed" planets and then kick
back to watch them grow. But they don't have the means nor the desire to check
them any more often than once in 2 billion years? Even the worst Star Trek
episode wasn't that strange. Lose the time references, and/or put in an
auto-monitoring facility (maybe a stealthy drone out by Uranus) that signals
them the yeast is getting moldy.
The selection process is just bizarre. If there was some way of identifying a
mutation to their original seeding that caused one to become a criminal (or a
particular type of criminal), say for example a "greed gene," I could see it.
But as it stands, if Jack had gotten arrested for speeding home to get laid,
he'd be dead now. You kill off all active duty military, but leave the
recently discharged alive, absent other factors. It doesn't seem to be
mentioned, but IIRC you terminated all children of less than child-bearing
years.
There just didn't seem to be any allowance for people exactly like Jack, but
who happened to be policemen or soldiers at the time of the virus. The
selection was TOO arbitrary.
My biggest complaint is proofreading. This may well be the best of the 30
chapters in that regard. Still, things like "forth planet" snuck in. (So much
for super-intelligent aliens.)
Since this is the only chapter under consideration, I won't bring up that only
big-breasted tight-pussied women survive (I didn't notice those in the aliens'
selection criteria) or all the hymens located 3" deep ...
That's beyond the
Down scope.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often."
<I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary
effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon,
Essays </I>
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:10:37 -0700
On 15 Aug 2002 07:39:10 GMT, pjcocoa@aol.come.to.bed (Gary Jordan)
held forth, saying:
Still, things like "forth planet" snuck in.
What other planet would use Forth?
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it."
- G.B. Shaw
On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:46:49 -0700,
dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.invalid
<dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:05:20 GMT, "David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)"
<dformosa@dformosa.zeta.org.au> held forth, saying:
[ ...]
A planet full of polish people in reverse?
Platypus must have used Forth once upon a time. <g>
Just a little from playing with the ok prompt on Sun hardware.
7 44 3 + *
329
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
Free the Memes.
From: celia batau
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:18:04 -0700
hi Gary!
"Gary Jordan" <pjcocoa@aol.come.to.bed> wrote in message
news:20020815033910.18305.00000529@mb-mk.aol.com ...
(maybe a stealthy drone out by Uranus)
that really would be a sex story. ;)
groan.
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
utsukushii hoshi ni sumu
utsukushii hitobito
utsukushikute tooi hoshi no
natsukashii hitobito
itsuka boku o
omoidashite.
-Pizzicato Five
From: Gary Jordan
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 16 Aug 2002 11:17:26 GMT
hi Gary!
Hi, celia!
"Gary Jordan" <pjcocoa@aol.come.to.bed> wrote in message
news:20020815033910.18305.00000529@mb-mk.aol.com ...
(maybe a stealthy drone out by Uranus)
that really would be a sex story. ;)
groan.
groan!
Still, they did use a number of probes ...
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often."
<I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary
effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon,
Essays </I>
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:45:08 GMT
Gary Jordan
Thank you for taking your time to read and comment on NanoVirus. I know that
it is longer than the usual "Fish Tank" entry and I appreciate your
endurance.
"Gary Jordan" <pjcocoa@aol.come.to.bed> wrote in message
news:20020815033910.18305.00000529@mb-mk.aol.com ...
Up scope in the Fish Tank. :)
Disclaimer: I have read all thirty (30) chapters published so far at
Stories
Online. I can't address this chapter alone, out of context, knowing how
the
story progresses. That said:
Two positives.
I like the overall theme of an alien race being disappointed with their
attempt
to play god and rather than just taking a do-over, trying to salvage the
best
of the batch.
I like the protagonist, Jack. He does his best to care for everyone that
comes
within his sphere.
Two recommendations for improvements:
The aliens just don't seem ... real. (Well, duh, somebody is saying -
they're
aliens.) They have the technology, the drive to "seed" planets and then
kick
back to watch them grow. But they don't have the means nor the desire to
check
them any more often than once in 2 billion years? Even the worst Star
Trek
episode wasn't that strange. Lose the time references, and/or put in an
auto-monitoring facility (maybe a stealthy drone out by Uranus) that
signals
them the yeast is getting moldy.
Since this isn't their first rodeo, the aliens already know that nothing
meaningful will happen for about four billion years. Civilization only
sprang up in the last five thousand or so. They weren't interested in
checking out the dinosaurs. I also hoped to leave the impression that this
wasn't their only project.
The selection process is just bizarre. If there was some way of
identifying a
mutation to their original seeding that caused one to become a criminal
(or a
particular type of criminal), say for example a "greed gene," I could see
it.
But as it stands, if Jack had gotten arrested for speeding home to get
laid,
he'd be dead now. You kill off all active duty military, but leave the
recently discharged alive, absent other factors. It doesn't seem to be
mentioned, but IIRC you terminated all children of less than child-bearing
years.
Here somehow I have let you go astray. The selection process was only
interested in finding the best intelligent physically robust humans for
breeding. The criminals, politicians, business leaders, military and police
were never considered for survival. They constitute the civilization, which
is the main culprit. The aliens found nothing significantly wrong with the
species that evolved.
There just didn't seem to be any allowance for people exactly like Jack,
but
who happened to be policemen or soldiers at the time of the virus. The
selection was TOO arbitrary.
Of course there was no allowance for them. It wasn't arbitrary at all.
Policemen or Soldiers would have tended to help restore the old civilization
and they all died. They weren't killed arbitrarily, they were killed by
design. The only reason they weren't killed first was so they could direct
traffic and bury the dead.
My biggest complaint is proofreading. This may well be the best of the 30
chapters in that regard. Still, things like "forth planet" snuck in. (So
much
for super-intelligent aliens.)
I will try to do better.
Since this is the only chapter under consideration, I won't bring up that
only
big-breasted tight-pussied women survive (I didn't notice those in the
aliens'
selection criteria) or all the hymens located 3" deep ...
This is a sex story. Large breasts and tight pussies are popular in this
type of story and I didn't see any need to resist that trend. As far as the
hymens and their locations are concerned, I was making that up out of whole
cloth, having never encountered one in real life.
That's beyond the
Down scope.
Thanks again for reading this chapter of NanoVirus and for commenting on it.
cmsix
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:59:09 -0600
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:45:08 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote:
Gary Jordan
Thank you for taking your time to read and comment on NanoVirus. I know that
it is longer than the usual "Fish Tank" entry and I appreciate your
endurance.
It is only slightly longer, and I think they tend to the 5000 word
limit.
Since this is the only chapter under consideration, I won't bring up that
only
big-breasted tight-pussied women survive (I didn't notice those in the
aliens'
selection criteria) or all the hymens located 3" deep ...
This is a sex story. Large breasts and tight pussies are popular in this
type of story and I didn't see any need to resist that trend. As far as the
hymens and their locations are concerned, I was making that up out of whole
cloth, having never encountered one in real life.
Though I can't complain about tight pussies, I do like variety in
other body parts. But everyone has different tastes; I just happen to
find variety more interesting than clone-like similarity.
On the hymen thing, maybe it needs to be in a sex story writer's
FAQ?
Anyway, it is the sort of thing that those who have encountered them
in RL notice. It is rather hard not to notice where it is when you're
touching it. While it seems like a popular story theme, the actual
results can vary a lot (just like the body types), but AFAIK nothing
is going to let the hymen grow that deep.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 04:44:00 GMT
"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d5f0db3$0$1428$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:45:08 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote:
Gary Jordan
Thank you for taking your time to read and comment on NanoVirus. I know
that
it is longer than the usual "Fish Tank" entry and I appreciate your
endurance.
It is only slightly longer, and I think they tend to the 5000 word
limit.
Since this is the only chapter under consideration, I won't bring up
that
only
big-breasted tight-pussied women survive (I didn't notice those in the
aliens'
selection criteria) or all the hymens located 3" deep ...
This is a sex story. Large breasts and tight pussies are popular in this
type of story and I didn't see any need to resist that trend. As far as
the
hymens and their locations are concerned, I was making that up out of
whole
cloth, having never encountered one in real life.
Though I can't complain about tight pussies, I do like variety in
other body parts. But everyone has different tastes; I just happen to
find variety more interesting than clone-like similarity.
In honor of your enlightening me on anatomy I will put one woman of any
breasts size you choose in the next chapter. You may select her name if you
like.
cmsix
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:15:36 -0600
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 04:44:00 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d5f0db3$0$1428$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:45:08 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote:
Gary Jordan
Thank you for taking your time to read and comment on NanoVirus. I know
that
it is longer than the usual "Fish Tank" entry and I appreciate your
endurance.
It is only slightly longer, and I think they tend to the 5000 word
limit.
Since this is the only chapter under consideration, I won't bring up
that
only
big-breasted tight-pussied women survive (I didn't notice those in the
aliens'
selection criteria) or all the hymens located 3" deep ...
This is a sex story. Large breasts and tight pussies are popular in this
type of story and I didn't see any need to resist that trend. As far as
the
hymens and their locations are concerned, I was making that up out of
whole
cloth, having never encountered one in real life.
Though I can't complain about tight pussies, I do like variety in
other body parts. But everyone has different tastes; I just happen to
find variety more interesting than clone-like similarity.
In honor of your enlightening me on anatomy I will put one woman of any
breasts size you choose in the next chapter. You may select her name if you
like.
Thanks. Not sure what name to pick, but as for type, a nice skinny
girl with a Twiggy sort of chest would be fun. Lots of energy, a
tight hard body, what's not to like? The breasts still work just
fine, fun to play with, nice to kiss ...
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 05:12:54 GMT
Jeff:
Thanks. Not sure what name to pick, but as for type, a nice skinny
girl with a Twiggy sort of chest would be fun. Lots of energy, a
tight hard body, what's not to like? The breasts still work just
fine, fun to play with, nice to kiss ...
Seven took me down to the meeting room and I did my thing, shaking hands and
trying to seem like a regular guy. The only thing remarkable about this
iteration was a small, slightly skinny cutie pie with Twiggy type breast
named Sparkle. An evidently permanent grin was stamped into her pixie like
face and her boundless energy seemed to bubble up out of her.
How's that? I used the name of a stripper I knew once in Dallas who had a
similar body style, maybe more muscular than what I picture here. The
stripper got a little too familiar with crack and had to move deeper into
the sex entertainment industry to afford it. I came back through with a
coast-to-coast load one week and she was dead, apparently at the hands of
her pimp.
cmsix
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:23:46 -0600
On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 05:12:54 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote:
Jeff:
Thanks. Not sure what name to pick, but as for type, a nice skinny
girl with a Twiggy sort of chest would be fun. Lots of energy, a
tight hard body, what's not to like? The breasts still work just
fine, fun to play with, nice to kiss ...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Seven took me down to the meeting room and I did my thing, shaking hands and
trying to seem like a regular guy. The only thing remarkable about this
iteration was a small, slightly skinny cutie pie with Twiggy type breast
named Sparkle. An evidently permanent grin was stamped into her pixie like
face and her boundless energy seemed to bubble up out of her.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
How's that? I used the name of a stripper I knew once in Dallas who had a
similar body style, maybe more muscular than what I picture here. The
stripper got a little too familiar with crack and had to move deeper into
the sex entertainment industry to afford it. I came back through with a
coast-to-coast load one week and she was dead, apparently at the hands of
her pimp.
That will work fine. I've known more than a few energetic skinny
sorts of girls, including one of my first girlfriends. I didn't want
to use her name, though (I've called her Annie in my JZL story).
Sparkle sounds like a fun name. Strippers often seem to pick
interesting names, though their real names are often even more
interesting.
I don't find the sad life story endings to be fun from that life at
all. But a lot of the women who get into that sort of work don't
end up that badly.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:10:20 GMT
john
Thank you for taking your time to read and comment on NanoVirus. It means a
lot to me to get this kind of feedback.
"john" <johndear@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:d828919b.0208142210.3dbdadad@posting.google.com ...
I got into the scifi bit which is an accomplishment for me. About
the only science fiction I've seriously read is a somewhat beaten up
copy of a Kilgore Trout novella. This author is no Trout. Trout
would have killed off all the lawyers and tele-marketers and used-car
salesmen way before the criminals. Nevertheless, it worked for me.
Someone who reads or writes this genre should tell me why it works?
By rights, 1600 words of stilted dialogue ought to put one right to
sleep. It didn't. In the end I was sorry to see their starship
thingy cleared for takeoff.
I liked the premise though. (The older that one gets, the easier it
is to smile about the extermination of the human race. <g>) The
seeding and sterilization ploy twigged my fancy. Dumb question
though. If it's a 2, 000,000,000 year process (in the streamlined
version) what kind of "promise" could be shown in a mere 500 years?
It led me to believe this part just might be fiction.
That is the point of the new procedure. They want to see if they can skip
the first four billion or so years of bringing life up from single cells to
humans. It is only an experiment for them. If the survivors haven't gotten
their asses off earth and begun poking around the solar system in five
hundred more years they will all be toast.
I reckon chapter 2 or 3 will hog tie the rich man to the aliens.
The aliens aren't even revealed to Jack for another twenty-eight chapters.
He will be running around Texas drawling for another 1200k of text, at
least. As for his wealth, it will be useless in a few weeks.
It took my breath away a bit to actually "drawl" after listening to Ergit
and Inglan roboticaly converse. The list of lovely redneck comments
too long to list. But ...
My dick was harder than times in twenty-nine.
should win a prize. (Ok, Brad. Fursure an American Prize.) No matter
that the comparison is antithetical, the accent is pure molasses and
grits.
Whahooo.
John
Thanks again for taking the time to read and comment on NanoVirus.
This is our second submission for this week. It is the first chapter of an
already successful story on StoriesOnline. It's been the recipient of a
Silver Clitoride. But the author would like us to take a look and give him
our opinions. It is 6,194 words in length. FishTank Guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive suggestions
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
Stories and their comments are being stored at:
http://www.asstr.org/~Desdmona/FishTank/base
Questions? Concerns? Suggestions? Submissions? Direct them to:
me@desdmona.com or Desdmona22@aol.com
*******************************************
NanoVirus ( MF oral)
By cmsix
cmsix@hotmail.com
Chapter 1
Positives. 1. This, despite the interjection of all the unbelievable alien
stuff at the beginning, is a stroke story to end all stroke stories. Even the
woman that the hero isn't sleeping with lets him know that she will, when they
can "synchronize their watches" and the one that does doesn't want a
relationship, she just wants a good time. And the chapter ends with her
insisting he perform anal sex, so we know it only gets better, from a stroke
perspective.
2. We can be certain that humanity will triumph in the end, because these
improbable aliens are so backwards despite their billions of years head start
that all we need is a boost in technology and we'll replace them.
Suggestions for improvement.
1. Make the aliens believable.
The commanding officer of the vessel sent a
crewman to fetch the population scientist, whose presence was the main
reason for the mission.
Highly evolved/technologically advanced aliens don't own an intercom? A
general announcing system?
"I was under the impression that the reports were the main purpose for this
assignment." Ergit admitted.
"They were initially; however a StarCruiser was diverted near this system
during a pursuit while we were in hyperspace. The pursued vessel was
terminated less than a parsec from this system. They probed the planet at
that time and I received the report fifty hours ago. The data is less than
fifty of the target's years old. It is unlikely any significant changes have
occurred in that time
They have enemies. Any reasonable race would be colonizing and building bases,
not running experiments that take billions of years to bear fruit.
Also, data that was gathered 50 years ago was delivered to the head geek and
poof, here they are in the system. Was it sent 4th class mail, or what?
They can put together an expedition to check out earth and travel there in
under 50 hours, but they can't deliver data for 50 years?
This is hard to reconcile. If the data were such low priority, then why is the
nanovirus mission such high priority?
"This planet was seeded over four billion of their years ago. We have made
many improvements in our seeding technology in that time; but a good current
seeding still takes at least half that amount of time to give meaningful
results.
Fertilizer! Bullshit, in other words. Use some realistic time frames! Check
some references WRT the age of the solar system. Did they seed a nebular cloud
to cause a star to form?
"I will go dispatch the probes now. We should know our course of action
within twenty of the target's hours." Inglan declared.
It takes 22 hours to gather and correlate data on which to form a course of
action for a planet of 6 billion people, properly identifying which to cull,
etc .... But it takes 4 billion years to check the progress of their experiment
to begin with. Unbelievable!
The ratio of males to females for the
survivors should be approximately four females to one male. This ratio is
projected to give the maximum quality to quantity for repopulation.
My, how convenient for the stroke aspects of the story ...
All incarcerated criminals will be terminated. This
will be slightly problematic as many of the governments make criminals of
political enemies. This cannot be rectified in the limited time frame for
the mission.
They can gather and analyze data about the entire planet in 22 hours, but
separating the criminals from the wrongfully imprisoned will take too long ...
"All political decision makers, down to the lowliest, will be terminated and
also all members of all militaries and all policing personnel.
Now, there's a logical criteria for elimination. Granted, a lot of politicians
are on a power trip, but can't this intelligent virus determine those who serve
and protect? Arbitrary and silly.
"We are striving to retain the best ratio of intelligence to physical
characteristics
Unless of course a physically perfect intelligent person is receiving a
government paycheck, for whatever reason.
for instance, they have several power generation units that
use atomic fuel, which would surely go critical without attention.
Just a pet peeve - a nuclear reactor has to be critical in order to work at
all. The terminology for a reactor that is out of control is supercritical,
and even that isn't a major concern for an untended reactor - it'll eventually
shut down on its own. The concern is damage that releases radioactive
materials to the environment.
Seventeen Days Later
"All virus and drone activity that requires our presence is completed
Commander Ergit." Inglan announced.
"Helm set course for Station three-thirty-six." Ergit ordered.
"Course set sir." the helmsman replied.
They trust their artificial intelligences to oversee the progress of the human
race for 500 years but need a helmsman to lay in a course, following verbal
orders. There must be a powerful helmsman union, like the fireman's union on
diesel engine trains.
2. The next recommendation is for what's missing. You have a separately
titled story (somebody and red?) that parallels this chapter and some that
follow. WTH is it separate? Weave it in here, switching back and forth
between the aliens and earth, You kill off that story's protagonist with the
nanovirus anyway, totally anticlimactic for an independant read. It should be
blended in, starting here in chapter 1. It introduces plot elements that are
vital to this story. It should be here. Hell, it's just as strokeworthy as
this one, so that won't hurt.
They need to be combined. The other really isn't a stand-alone story.
Des, please forgive me for using this method to make more than my share of
comments in the tank. I just hadda doit.
Gary's Muse's Sockpuppet
Cry "Hammock!"
And let slip the fogs of snore.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:48:00 -0600
On 15 Aug 2002 16:20:11 GMT, romancesfool@aol.complainer (Garys Muses
Sockpuppet) wrote:
This is our second submission for this week. It is the first chapter of an
already successful story on StoriesOnline. It's been the recipient of a
Silver Clitoride. But the author would like us to take a look and give him
our opinions. It is 6,194 words in length. FishTank Guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive suggestions
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
Stories and their comments are being stored at:
http://www.asstr.org/~Desdmona/FishTank/base
Questions? Concerns? Suggestions? Submissions? Direct them to:
me@desdmona.com or Desdmona22@aol.com
*******************************************
1. Make the aliens believable.
The commanding officer of the vessel sent a
crewman to fetch the population scientist, whose presence was the main
reason for the mission.
Highly evolved/technologically advanced aliens don't own an intercom? A
general announcing system?
Advanced tech doesn't mean they won't impose cultural rules which
slow things down.
Now, the trick is to figure out which things are part of their
culture, which are features of the species (instincts can overrule
intelligence too), and which need to be fixed to make them believable.
As aliens, they can be quite strange, and culturally they should be
different from humans.
"I was under the impression that the reports were the main purpose for this
assignment." Ergit admitted.
"They were initially; however a StarCruiser was diverted near this system
during a pursuit while we were in hyperspace. The pursued vessel was
terminated less than a parsec from this system. They probed the planet at
that time and I received the report fifty hours ago. The data is less than
fifty of the target's years old. It is unlikely any significant changes have
occurred in that time
They have enemies. Any reasonable race would be colonizing and building bases,
not running experiments that take billions of years to bear fruit.
We don't know what the pursuit was about, do we? Might have been
the equivalent of a police chase - the enemy is part of their
society. You don't need to build new bases against internal problems
- the new bases might make some.
Billion year time cycles means a race which isn't much like humans
anyway. Once you allow them to be so slow in planning, you have to
allow them to be slow in other ways.
Also, data that was gathered 50 years ago was delivered to the head geek and
poof, here they are in the system. Was it sent 4th class mail, or what?
They can put together an expedition to check out earth and travel there in
under 50 hours, but they can't deliver data for 50 years?
They were already in the neighborhood? So it wasn't much of a
diversion? But the data collection and transmission, that was sent
elsewhere nominally, and it takes longer to get there.
We don't need to know how far away the aliens are. But if they were
close, then it doesn't make sense not to monitor more often. Ergo,
write up the aliens as being from far away, no bases near, and of
course no enemies near either (else they need bases).
This is hard to reconcile. If the data were such low priority, then why is the
nanovirus mission such high priority?
Because the ship was on a schedule. Maybe it might slow it down on
its mission, which probably takes a millennium or so to complete on
schedule as it is?
Maybe the aliens do things "by the book." It is easier to see the
action being part of a programmed bureaucracy than individual decision
making. We don't need to see the rule book, they just have to make
some small mention of doing things according to the code or whatever.
"This planet was seeded over four billion of their years ago. We have made
many improvements in our seeding technology in that time; but a good current
seeding still takes at least half that amount of time to give meaningful
results.
Fertilizer! Bullshit, in other words. Use some realistic time frames! Check
some references WRT the age of the solar system. Did they seed a nebular cloud
to cause a star to form?
That puts it right on the threshold for start of life, not the
entire solar system. Though maybe they can do that part too?
Precision doesn't matter, so much as the idea that they are pretty
arrogant but unbelievably slow acting.
Or maybe they lied? Are they still doing seeding, or is it
something out of the legendary past? Even a really long lived
civilization might have some blurriness in its records of 4 billion
years ago.
"I will go dispatch the probes now. We should know our course of action
within twenty of the target's hours." Inglan declared.
It takes 22 hours to gather and correlate data on which to form a course of
action for a planet of 6 billion people, properly identifying which to cull,
etc .... But it takes 4 billion years to check the progress of their experiment
to begin with. Unbelievable!
Onsite, they can decide things quickly, because they are following a
preset program.
As for the other part, maybe it isn't true? I do find the 4 billion
year delay odd, making them very strange and not at all human. Yet
they act and react, though in an odd way, something like humans.
Maybe the actual planning department is something else?
All incarcerated criminals will be terminated. This
will be slightly problematic as many of the governments make criminals of
political enemies. This cannot be rectified in the limited time frame for
the mission.
They can gather and analyze data about the entire planet in 22 hours, but
separating the criminals from the wrongfully imprisoned will take too long ...
"All political decision makers, down to the lowliest, will be terminated and
also all members of all militaries and all policing personnel.
Now, there's a logical criteria for elimination. Granted, a lot of politicians
are on a power trip, but can't this intelligent virus determine those who serve
and protect? Arbitrary and silly.
"We are striving to retain the best ratio of intelligence to physical
characteristics
Unless of course a physically perfect intelligent person is receiving a
government paycheck, for whatever reason.
This description sounds like doublespeak. The thing achieved
differs from the stated goal. Why the alien says this, we don't know.
Maybe it gets explained later.
Arbitrary actions aren't out of line, really, if the aliens are
diffferent from humans. The goals may seem odd, maybe mistranslated.
The effects, though, are what matter.
Maybe the explanation for who gets culled needs to be smoother. But
if the rules for culling the species requires arbitrary eliminations
as the most effective solution, it doesn't matter if the reasons are
spurious.
Maybe some student asks why they can't do better, and gets shot down
by an elder? That could clear things up a lot, just a bit of insight
into the apparent illogic of the aliens.
Since we aren't likely to get a good explanation from them, unless
humans interact with them (and even then it might be strange), doing
stuff to keep it clear that they aren't acting in a sensible human
fashion is a good idea.
for instance, they have several power generation units that
use atomic fuel, which would surely go critical without attention.
Just a pet peeve - a nuclear reactor has to be critical in order to work at
all. The terminology for a reactor that is out of control is supercritical,
and even that isn't a major concern for an untended reactor - it'll eventually
shut down on its own. The concern is damage that releases radioactive
materials to the environment.
Yeah, that one doesn't work. The reactor can't fail
catastrophically from ordinary operation; it will slow down eventually
on its own. The ordinary automation could handle that, plus the
operators could pull it offline simply due to lack of personnel.
OTOH, there are no end of other operations which involve hazardous
materials, which the nanovirus tech could help out with. Such as
simply cleaning up all polluting toxins, and sealing/recycling all
hazardous materials in other situations.
I haven't read the rest of the series, so I can't say what all the
aliens might want to program for.
It still, though, feels like a sham. The alien commander is lying
about the reasons for the action, and the basis. Of course, they may
not know any better; we don't know enough about them.
Seventeen Days Later
"All virus and drone activity that requires our presence is completed
Commander Ergit." Inglan announced.
"Helm set course for Station three-thirty-six." Ergit ordered.
"Course set sir." the helmsman replied.
They trust their artificial intelligences to oversee the progress of the human
race for 500 years but need a helmsman to lay in a course, following verbal
orders. There must be a powerful helmsman union, like the fireman's union on
diesel engine trains.
AI can't run their own ships ;-)
But it can decide where they go and what they must do on their
missions :-)
In essence, it makes sense if the culture plays out working
relationship roles, and doesn't (in essence) delegate authority among
themselves to machines.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
Jeff Zephyr jeffzeph@hotmail.com on 8/15/02 5:48 PM Central Daylight Time said:
On 15 Aug 2002 16:20:11 GMT, romancesfool@aol.complainer (Garys Muses
Sockpuppet) wrote:
<snip>
1. Make the aliens believable.
The commanding officer of the vessel sent a
crewman to fetch the population scientist, whose presence was the main
reason for the mission.
Highly evolved/technologically advanced aliens don't own an intercom? A
general announcing system?
Advanced tech doesn't mean they won't impose cultural rules which
slow things down.
Now, the trick is to figure out which things are part of their
culture, which are features of the species (instincts can overrule
intelligence too), and which need to be fixed to make them believable.
As aliens, they can be quite strange, and culturally they should be
different from humans.
The point, as you pointed out in your own post, is that the alien culture is
irrelevant, and including little snippets which make them less believable JAR.
The means of summoning the scientist are unimportant. Telepathy would work as
well. We only need "Commander Ergit summoned Chief Population Scientist Inglan
(whose presence, after all, was the main
reason for the mission)."
As several people have said, everything the aliens do is background, and should
be minimized.
"I was under the impression that the reports were the main purpose for this
assignment." Ergit admitted.
"They were initially; however a StarCruiser was diverted near this system
during a pursuit while we were in hyperspace. The pursued vessel was
terminated less than a parsec from this system. They probed the planet at
that time and I received the report fifty hours ago. The data is less than
fifty of the target's years old. It is unlikely any significant changes
have
occurred in that time
They have enemies. Any reasonable race would be colonizing and building
bases,
not running experiments that take billions of years to bear fruit.
We don't know what the pursuit was about, do we? Might have been
the equivalent of a police chase - the enemy is part of their
society. You don't need to build new bases against internal problems
- the new bases might make some.
Billion year time cycles means a race which isn't much like humans
anyway. Once you allow them to be so slow in planning, you have to
allow them to be slow in other ways.
A (dis)advantage of reading all 30+ chapters (so far, and including the side
chapters from "and Red") is that we DO know there are unfriendly aliens besides
these.
As far as letting them be slow, that's what jars worse. They take an
incredibly long view? Then why the rash, hasty, breakneck speed of their
intervention. 50 hours after finally receiving 50 yo info, they are taking
action! Inconsistent and jarring.
Also, data that was gathered 50 years ago was delivered to the head geek and
poof, here they are in the system. Was it sent 4th class mail, or what?
They can put together an expedition to check out earth and travel there in
under 50 hours, but they can't deliver data for 50 years?
They were already in the neighborhood? So it wasn't much of a
diversion? But the data collection and transmission, that was sent
elsewhere nominally, and it takes longer to get there.
That's just apologistic. The inconsistencies between identifying them as a
methodical, plodding, long-thinking species and the speed of these actions is
incredible and jarring.
We don't need to know how far away the aliens are. But if they were
close, then it doesn't make sense not to monitor more often. Ergo,
write up the aliens as being from far away, no bases near, and of
course no enemies near either (else they need bases).
Again, it's enemies run too ground that result in the report. Or so it will
eventually (29-30 chapters later) be revealed.
This is hard to reconcile. If the data were such low priority, then why is
the
nanovirus mission such high priority?
Because the ship was on a schedule. Maybe it might slow it down on
its mission, which probably takes a millennium or so to complete on
schedule as it is?
Maybe the aliens do things "by the book." It is easier to see the
action being part of a programmed bureaucracy than individual decision
making. We don't need to see the rule book, they just have to make
some small mention of doing things according to the code or whatever.
Yes, it could be a "programmed response." But specific mention of the times of
the seeding, the gathering of the data, and response time just don't make
sense.
"This planet was seeded over four billion of their years ago. We have made
many improvements in our seeding technology in that time; but a good
current
seeding still takes at least half that amount of time to give meaningful
results.
Fertilizer! Bullshit, in other words. Use some realistic time frames!
Check
some references WRT the age of the solar system. Did they seed a nebular
cloud
to cause a star to form?
That puts it right on the threshold for start of life, not the
entire solar system. Though maybe they can do that part too?
Precision doesn't matter, so much as the idea that they are pretty
arrogant but unbelievably slow acting.
Slow acting? 50 hours? Do we not see the inconsistancy?
Or maybe they lied? Are they still doing seeding, or is it
something out of the legendary past? Even a really long lived
civilization might have some blurriness in its records of 4 billion
years ago.
Relegating the information to mis-information serves no purpose. Who are they
lying to?
"I will go dispatch the probes now. We should know our course of action
within twenty of the target's hours." Inglan declared.
It takes 22 hours to gather and correlate data on which to form a course of
action for a planet of 6 billion people, properly identifying which to cull,
etc .... But it takes 4 billion years to check the progress of their
experiment
to begin with. Unbelievable!
Onsite, they can decide things quickly, because they are following a
preset program.
This is identified as a radical departure from presets, something new.
As for the other part, maybe it isn't true? I do find the 4 billion
year delay odd, making them very strange and not at all human. Yet
they act and react, though in an odd way, something like humans.
Maybe the actual planning department is something else?
Mat's suggestion to move alien involvement further into the background might
make the speculation irrelevent.
All incarcerated criminals will be terminated. This
will be slightly problematic as many of the governments make criminals of
political enemies. This cannot be rectified in the limited time frame for
the mission.
They can gather and analyze data about the entire planet in 22 hours, but
separating the criminals from the wrongfully imprisoned will take too
long ...
"All political decision makers, down to the lowliest, will be terminated
and
also all members of all militaries and all policing personnel.
Now, there's a logical criteria for elimination. Granted, a lot of
politicians
are on a power trip, but can't this intelligent virus determine those who
serve
and protect? Arbitrary and silly.
"We are striving to retain the best ratio of intelligence to physical
characteristics
Unless of course a physically perfect intelligent person is receiving a
government paycheck, for whatever reason.
This description sounds like doublespeak. The thing achieved
differs from the stated goal. Why the alien says this, we don't know.
Maybe it gets explained later.
It doesn't get explained, it gets reported. I'd like to see all the alien
discussion of specific target groups removed. Vague talk of criteria that
would improve the race is one thing. Targeting specific groups (criminals)
without defining in alien terms what is considered a crime (e.g. "placing
personal benefit over that of the species") is silly.
Arbitrary actions aren't out of line, really, if the aliens are
diffferent from humans. The goals may seem odd, maybe mistranslated.
The effects, though, are what matter.
Maybe the explanation for who gets culled needs to be smoother. But
if the rules for culling the species requires arbitrary eliminations
as the most effective solution, it doesn't matter if the reasons are
spurious.
Maybe some student asks why they can't do better, and gets shot down
by an elder? That could clear things up a lot, just a bit of insight
into the apparent illogic of the aliens.
Since we aren't likely to get a good explanation from them, unless
humans interact with them (and even then it might be strange), doing
stuff to keep it clear that they aren't acting in a sensible human
fashion is a good idea.
I would expect their criteria to seem arbitrary from our perspective. But it
is expressed in human terms. All incarcerated criminals, followed by all loose
criminals. They use human definitions of criminals. All their discussion
seems to point to anti-evolutionary behaviour. So have them define it that
way.
<snip lesson in nuclear power plant operation>
Seventeen Days Later
"All virus and drone activity that requires our presence is completed
Commander Ergit." Inglan announced.
"Helm set course for Station three-thirty-six." Ergit ordered.
"Course set sir." the helmsman replied.
They trust their artificial intelligences to oversee the progress of the
human
race for 500 years but need a helmsman to lay in a course, following verbal
orders. There must be a powerful helmsman union, like the fireman's union
on
diesel engine trains.
AI can't run their own ships ;-)
But it can decide where they go and what they must do on their
missions :-)
In essence, it makes sense if the culture plays out working
relationship roles, and doesn't (in essence) delegate authority among
themselves to machines.
The point is, specifics aren't needed, and detract rather than enhance.
The probe is in place. No further oversight is needed. They depart.
Gary's Muse's Sockpuppet
Cry "Hammock!"
And let slip the fogs of snore.
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:50:19 -0700
On 16 Aug 2002 11:02:23 GMT, romancesfool@aol.complainer (Garys Muses
Sockpuppet) held forth, saying:
It doesn't get explained, it gets reported. I'd like to see all the alien
discussion of specific target groups removed. Vague talk of criteria that
would improve the race is one thing. Targeting specific groups (criminals)
without defining in alien terms what is considered a crime (e.g. "placing
personal benefit over that of the species") is silly.
Maybe the aliens should just hire Mickey Finn.
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it."
- G.B. Shaw
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:49:52 -0600
On 16 Aug 2002 11:02:23 GMT, romancesfool@aol.complainer (Garys Muses
Sockpuppet) wrote:
Jeff Zephyr jeffzeph@hotmail.com on 8/15/02 5:48 PM Central Daylight Time said:
On 15 Aug 2002 16:20:11 GMT, romancesfool@aol.complainer (Garys Muses
Sockpuppet) wrote:
<snip>
1. Make the aliens believable.
The commanding officer of the vessel sent a
crewman to fetch the population scientist, whose presence was the main
reason for the mission.
Highly evolved/technologically advanced aliens don't own an intercom? A
general announcing system?
Advanced tech doesn't mean they won't impose cultural rules which
slow things down.
Now, the trick is to figure out which things are part of their
culture, which are features of the species (instincts can overrule
intelligence too), and which need to be fixed to make them believable.
As aliens, they can be quite strange, and culturally they should be
different from humans.
The point, as you pointed out in your own post, is that the alien culture is
irrelevant, and including little snippets which make them less believable JAR.
Right. I haven't read the rest of the series, but the opener makes
a bad impression as soon as you apply any logic to it. SF fans are
all to apt to do it. Plot holes are sometimes hard to avoid, premises
can be weak, but you can only go so far out on a limb before it
breaks.
The means of summoning the scientist are unimportant. Telepathy would work as
well. We only need "Commander Ergit summoned Chief Population Scientist Inglan
(whose presence, after all, was the main
reason for the mission)."
As several people have said, everything the aliens do is background, and should
be minimized.
I think that makes the most sense. I don't know if the humans ever
find out. But from the perspective of the humans, the alien info
isn't known at all. While as a writer I can see putting together some
synopsis of that action, I think it is something which can safely be
minimized in the story itself.
We don't know what the pursuit was about, do we? Might have been
the equivalent of a police chase - the enemy is part of their
society. You don't need to build new bases against internal problems
- the new bases might make some.
Billion year time cycles means a race which isn't much like humans
anyway. Once you allow them to be so slow in planning, you have to
allow them to be slow in other ways.
A (dis)advantage of reading all 30+ chapters (so far, and including the side
chapters from "and Red") is that we DO know there are unfriendly aliens besides
these.
As far as letting them be slow, that's what jars worse. They take an
incredibly long view? Then why the rash, hasty, breakneck speed of their
intervention. 50 hours after finally receiving 50 yo info, they are taking
action! Inconsistent and jarring.
True. It makes as much sense to say that the data was collected 50
years ago, and they've finally come to a conclusion about what to do.
The plot point of the aliens is to cause massive deaths, and the
reasons for it aren't as critical.
In practice, do they give reasons? Do they need to give reasons?
Someone analyzed the situation, and decided after a "brief"
deliberation to "crash" the society in order to fix it (I think that
50 years would be brief; unless humans are somehow one of the
super-fast evolving species, but if these aliens have made a lot of
worlds, wouldn't they have hit some others which have rapid social
change).
From the reader's POV, I don't think that knowing the details in
advance helps.
Also, data that was gathered 50 years ago was delivered to the head geek and
poof, here they are in the system. Was it sent 4th class mail, or what?
They can put together an expedition to check out earth and travel there in
under 50 hours, but they can't deliver data for 50 years?
They were already in the neighborhood? So it wasn't much of a
diversion? But the data collection and transmission, that was sent
elsewhere nominally, and it takes longer to get there.
That's just apologistic. The inconsistencies between identifying them as a
methodical, plodding, long-thinking species and the speed of these actions is
incredible and jarring.
It is, I agree. A fast reaction could make sense if some outside
force was accelerating their plodding responses - like when Earth is
demolished in Hitchhikers's Guide To the Galaxy. Though in practice,
that entire plot point is just to set up the trip that Arthur Dent
goes on. The explanation is a lot weaker in impact (and not given at
the start of the story) than the event itself, and the followup
entertainment.
This story isn't exactly parallel to that, but the scale of
operation is similar.
We don't need to know how far away the aliens are. But if they were
close, then it doesn't make sense not to monitor more often. Ergo,
write up the aliens as being from far away, no bases near, and of
course no enemies near either (else they need bases).
Again, it's enemies run too ground that result in the report. Or so it will
eventually (29-30 chapters later) be revealed.
Hmm, which makes us wonder what sorts of dangerous aliens there are,
and why this billions of years old species hasn't done more to
eliminate such threats.
They could be incompetent, but that only makes sense if their
universe is rather benign for them.
This is hard to reconcile. If the data were such low priority, then why is
the
nanovirus mission such high priority?
Because the ship was on a schedule. Maybe it might slow it down on
its mission, which probably takes a millennium or so to complete on
schedule as it is?
Maybe the aliens do things "by the book." It is easier to see the
action being part of a programmed bureaucracy than individual decision
making. We don't need to see the rule book, they just have to make
some small mention of doing things according to the code or whatever.
Yes, it could be a "programmed response." But specific mention of the times of
the seeding, the gathering of the data, and response time just don't make
sense.
Which is why a lot of that could be left out until later. And maybe
not given at all. It is necessary that the author know the timetable
and effects. The reader can learn about the effects when they happen.
The why of it might be safely left a mystery. Otherwise, you risk
making an explanation which is weak, hurting the feel of the story.
Or maybe they lied? Are they still doing seeding, or is it
something out of the legendary past? Even a really long lived
civilization might have some blurriness in its records of 4 billion
years ago.
Relegating the information to mis-information serves no purpose. Who are they
lying to?
Themselves. One group within them knows more, but maybe no one
really knows what they're doing now? If they've used AIs for a long
time, they might have lost track of just how and why things work. The
scientist types talk like they know what they are doing, but in fact
perhaps all they are doing is reading the instruction lists off a
computer-generated report?
"I will go dispatch the probes now. We should know our course of action
within twenty of the target's hours." Inglan declared.
It takes 22 hours to gather and correlate data on which to form a course of
action for a planet of 6 billion people, properly identifying which to cull,
etc .... But it takes 4 billion years to check the progress of their
experiment
to begin with. Unbelievable!
Onsite, they can decide things quickly, because they are following a
preset program.
This is identified as a radical departure from presets, something new.
Which is a plot problem, as you say.
As for the other part, maybe it isn't true? I do find the 4 billion
year delay odd, making them very strange and not at all human. Yet
they act and react, though in an odd way, something like humans.
Maybe the actual planning department is something else?
Mat's suggestion to move alien involvement further into the background might
make the speculation irrelevent.
I think that that is right, this is a case of too much information
- and not about the sexual participants and actions, which doesn't
revolve around that info.
This description sounds like doublespeak. The thing achieved
differs from the stated goal. Why the alien says this, we don't know.
Maybe it gets explained later.
It doesn't get explained, it gets reported. I'd like to see all the alien
discussion of specific target groups removed. Vague talk of criteria that
would improve the race is one thing. Targeting specific groups (criminals)
without defining in alien terms what is considered a crime (e.g. "placing
personal benefit over that of the species") is silly.
Right, this all is stuff which I think might be read off the report,
without much explanation. I do think that if they are zapping all
incarcerated criminals, there is no need to have a limitation on the
operation. It is what they wanted to do, and given their means there
is no reason that they shouldn't simply be said to be carrying out
their plan as intended.
If the plan is broken, then if I were an alien scientist I'd want
to know more. As it is, the whole thing makes more sense as a sort of
"science project" operation, an experiment, an artistic endeavor, or
something where being arbitrary and unfair can be justified. If the
chief scientist wants to do X, that is what we do. The why of it is
simply to see what will happen. There is an expectation, but
experiments are how you learn new things.
Arbitrary actions aren't out of line, really, if the aliens are
diffferent from humans. The goals may seem odd, maybe mistranslated.
The effects, though, are what matter.
Maybe the explanation for who gets culled needs to be smoother. But
if the rules for culling the species requires arbitrary eliminations
as the most effective solution, it doesn't matter if the reasons are
spurious.
Maybe some student asks why they can't do better, and gets shot down
by an elder? That could clear things up a lot, just a bit of insight
into the apparent illogic of the aliens.
Since we aren't likely to get a good explanation from them, unless
humans interact with them (and even then it might be strange), doing
stuff to keep it clear that they aren't acting in a sensible human
fashion is a good idea.
I would expect their criteria to seem arbitrary from our perspective. But it
is expressed in human terms. All incarcerated criminals, followed by all loose
criminals. They use human definitions of criminals. All their discussion
seems to point to anti-evolutionary behaviour. So have them define it that
way.
Makes sense to me. They don't explain what the problem is, or why
their changes fix it. They want to rebuild the society, and are using
brute force culling to change the social order. They've analyzed the
existing order (and that may have taken some time even for them), and
decided that their solution is to eliminate it.
They made a list, checked it two billion times, then decided who was
naughty or nice. The NV is just the means of "shooting" the
particular victims selected off the list. If they used human terms to
pick out some people to terminate, that is OK - that is the source
material for the database of targets.
OTOH, all the effects can be reported, without much explanation. As
each new group is killed off, the news reports may come to some
conclusion. Without reading the next chapter, though, I'd think that
the CDC and similar medical groups would deduce that the deaths are
artificially induced, if not the source. The pattern is non-random,
and non-random tends not to be natural.
AI can't run their own ships ;-)
But it can decide where they go and what they must do on their
missions :-)
In essence, it makes sense if the culture plays out working
relationship roles, and doesn't (in essence) delegate authority among
themselves to machines.
The point is, specifics aren't needed, and detract rather than enhance.
The probe is in place. No further oversight is needed. They depart.
True. It is a space TV show convention, and fits in that regard,
but I don't think it is applicable to these aliens. Q from Trek would
just say his last words and be gone, no explanation about how or why.
Now, really long lived slow acting aliens are present in some SF
stories. Trying to incorporate them as models of thought for these
aliens might help. The age of them, coupled with their ability to act
decisively, poses problems. The simplest solution is that they are a
damaged species. They record history over billions of years, but they
have no direct experience, no education, and no technology which has
survived those eons. Something went really wrong. Maybe they
stagnated, forced into a very slow, glacial, maybe even backsliding
tech model (a nasty ruling entity which suppresses development?).
Maybe they've zapped themselves a few million times, but always
recovered eventually? Whatever, they simply aren't as timelessly
all-powerful and eternal as they act. They may believe, almost
religiously, that they are. But in practice, they just aren't all
that tough or capable.
Of course, you don't need to be supremely advanced to pull off the
"simple" species culling that is employed in the story. As a plot
point, the billions of years background isn't necessary at all.
Putting it in raises those nasty questions about just what these
aliens are like, and why they act so stupid :-) Younger alien races
are more believable at making stupid decisions, limited in power.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 05:06:58 GMT
"Garys Muses Sockpuppet" <romancesfool@aol.complainer> wrote in message
news:20020815122011.18294.00000538@mb-mk.aol.com ...
Positives. 1. This, despite the interjection of all the unbelievable
alien
stuff at the beginning, is a stroke story to end all stroke stories. Even
the
woman that the hero isn't sleeping with lets him know that she will, when
they
can "synchronize their watches" and the one that does doesn't want a
relationship, she just wants a good time. And the chapter ends with her
insisting he perform anal sex, so we know it only gets better, from a
stroke
perspective.
2. We can be certain that humanity will triumph in the end, because these
improbable aliens are so backwards despite their billions of years head
start
that all we need is a boost in technology and we'll replace them.
Suggestions for improvement.
1. Make the aliens believable.
The commanding officer of the vessel sent a
crewman to fetch the population scientist, whose presence was the main
reason for the mission.
Highly evolved/technologically advanced aliens don't own an intercom? A
general announcing system?
The population scientist was much too important a dignitary to be summoned
by a lowly commanding officer over the intercom.
"I was under the impression that the reports were the main purpose for
this
assignment." Ergit admitted.
"They were initially; however a StarCruiser was diverted near this system
during a pursuit while we were in hyperspace. The pursued vessel was
terminated less than a parsec from this system. They probed the planet at
that time and I received the report fifty hours ago. The data is less
than
fifty of the target's years old. It is unlikely any significant changes
have
occurred in that time
They have enemies. Any reasonable race would be colonizing and building
bases,
not running experiments that take billions of years to bear fruit.
This did not necessarily imply that they had significant enemies. They could
have merely been dealing with a pirate or a smuggler. There was no battle
mentioned, just a pursuit and a termination.
Also, data that was gathered 50 years ago was delivered to the head geek
and
poof, here they are in the system. Was it sent 4th class mail, or what?
They can put together an expedition to check out earth and travel there in
under 50 hours, but they can't deliver data for 50 years?
The text specifically states that they were in hyperspace when the data was
received. They were already in route to the planet and the fifty hours
refers to the time that the population scientist had been in possession of
the data, not to how long they had been traveling. I'm sorry but my limited
understanding of the general and special theories of relativity aren't what
they should be. I do understand that when a 'starship' in a science fiction
scene is said to be in hyperspace it is usually understood that the vessel
is traveling faster than light. Naturally this implies that the normal rules
of the space-time continuum, as we understand them are skewed. We have no
way of knowing where or how far away the ship was when it started for earth,
nor do we know how long it was traveling. All we know is that fifty-year-old
data was received fifty hours ago.
This is hard to reconcile. If the data were such low priority, then why
is the
nanovirus mission such high priority?
If I indicated that the mission was high priority I certainly didn't intend
to and I can't seem to find it. I will add a word or two to clarify.
"This planet was seeded over four billion of their years ago. We have
made
many improvements in our seeding technology in that time; but a good
current
seeding still takes at least half that amount of time to give meaningful
results.
Fertilizer! Bullshit, in other words. Use some realistic time frames!
Check
some references WRT the age of the solar system. Did they seed a nebular
cloud
to cause a star to form?
The first site that I checked after googling for "age of earth" said. - The
generally accepted age for the Earth and the rest of the solar system is
about 4.55 billion years (plus or minus about 1%) - I googled for the
'beginning of life on earth' and found a common estimate was between 3.9 -
3.5 billion years ago. I think that my time frame is certainly within those
parameters. If these dates are incorrect I would appreciate you telling me
exactly when earth was formed and when life began. I will change the dates
in the story to match. For obvious reasons I was not using the timeframe of
creationist theory.
"I will go dispatch the probes now. We should know our course of action
within twenty of the target's hours." Inglan declared.
It takes 22 hours to gather and correlate data on which to form a course
of
action for a planet of 6 billion people, properly identifying which to
cull,
etc ....
It took 22 hours to decide that the new procedure would be used. It took
twenty days to infect the population and select the survivors.
But it takes 4 billion years to check the progress of their experiment
to begin with. Unbelievable!
This is specious for two reasons:
1. This wasn't their first project. They already had a handle on how long it
would take. They certainly didn't need to come by and peek at the dinosaurs.
2. Nothing was mentioned about this being the only visit to the experiment,
it was just the last so far.
The ratio of males to females for the
survivors should be approximately four females to one male. This ratio is
projected to give the maximum quality to quantity for repopulation.
My, how convenient for the stroke aspects of the story ...
What did you expect sweetie, an ice cream cone. This is ASSD. I don't think
the D is for Disney. Even though Bradly Stoke was kind enough to mention me
in the same sentence with Tolstoy, Emile Zola, and Dostoevsky, you did
realize that he was just fucking with me didn't you?
All incarcerated criminals will be terminated. This
will be slightly problematic as many of the governments make criminals of
political enemies. This cannot be rectified in the limited time frame for
the mission.
They can gather and analyze data about the entire planet in 22 hours, but
separating the criminals from the wrongfully imprisoned will take too
long ...
I've already pointed out that you misread the time frame for decision and
selection. They are going to terminate 98% of the population. Why should
they bother with sorting out the right and wrong of who is imprisoned by
civilizations that are going to be destroyed anyway? The numbers are simply
not significant. They aren't some bunch of super referees that came to make
things right. They've come to make things dead, as an experiment some few
are going to be left alive.
"All political decision makers, down to the lowliest, will be terminated
and
also all members of all militaries and all policing personnel.
Now, there's a logical criteria for elimination. Granted, a lot of
politicians
are on a power trip, but can't this intelligent virus determine those who
serve
and protect? Arbitrary and silly.
What is silly is thinking that they would care who did what in a system that
they are going to get rid of. Power tripping politicians don't mean shit to
them. No one that presided over or organized or protected the civilization
will even be considered for survival. It isn't arbitrary at all. All
policemen, all military men, all politicians, all religious leaders and all
business leaders will die. Nothing arbitrary about it, they are all toast.
"We are striving to retain the best ratio of intelligence to physical
characteristics
Unless of course a physically perfect intelligent person is receiving a
government paycheck, for whatever reason.
for instance, they have several power generation units that
use atomic fuel, which would surely go critical without attention.
Just a pet peeve - a nuclear reactor has to be critical in order to work
at
all. The terminology for a reactor that is out of control is
supercritical,
and even that isn't a major concern for an untended reactor - it'll
eventually
shut down on its own. The concern is damage that releases radioactive
materials to the environment.
Then what was the term for what happened at Chornobyl? I'll switch to that
one.
Seventeen Days Later
"All virus and drone activity that requires our presence is completed
Commander Ergit." Inglan announced.
"Helm set course for Station three-thirty-six." Ergit ordered.
"Course set sir." the helmsman replied.
They trust their artificial intelligences to oversee the progress of the
human
race for 500 years but need a helmsman to lay in a course, following
verbal
orders. There must be a powerful helmsman union, like the fireman's union
on
diesel engine trains.
They don't trust anything to the drone. For this chapter it is there only to
schedule the terminations and then to gather data that until the aliens
signal it for a report later. No oversight is needed, if the survivors
aren't up to speed in five hundred years they are dead too.
The helmsman set the course after verbal orders because I wanted Ergit to
have the opportunity to say "Engage". That is not negotiable.
2. The next recommendation is for what's missing. You have a separately
titled story (somebody and red?) that parallels this chapter and some that
follow. WTH is it separate? Weave it in here, switching back and forth
between the aliens and earth, You kill off that story's protagonist with
the
nanovirus anyway, totally anticlimactic for an independant read. It
should be
blended in, starting here in chapter 1. It introduces plot elements that
are
vital to this story. It should be here. Hell, it's just as strokeworthy
as
this one, so that won't hurt.
They need to be combined. The other really isn't a stand-alone story.
Need in one hand, shit in the other. "Red and Victor" was posted for the
first time on 27 Jan 1998. It was just the first chapter then and I expanded
it later. When Jack reached east Texas and found the first house I realized
that the perfect house for him was outside Ft Worth. I let the virus kill
Bill and Jackie and I let Jack find Shelly and Sarah and the rest is the
rest of NanoVirus so far. This is all far from the scope of the chapter that
we are discussing.
Des, please forgive me for using this method to make more than my share of
comments in the tank. I just hadda doit.
Interesting.
Thanks for taking your time to read and comment on NanoVirus. And thank you
for your diligent effort in trying to make it seem as childish and trivial
as possible. I only regret that you resorted to some type of subterfuge to
do it and that you didn't have the balls to post as yourself.
cmsix
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:00:21 -0700
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 05:06:58 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> held
forth, saying:
"Garys Muses Sockpuppet" <romancesfool@aol.complainer> wrote in message
news:20020815122011.18294.00000538@mb-mk.aol.com ...
<the vorpal blade and the snicker-snack thing, yes?>
Interesting.
Thanks for taking your time to read and comment on NanoVirus. And thank you
for your diligent effort in trying to make it seem as childish and trivial
as possible.
I only regret that you resorted to some type of subterfuge to
do it and that you didn't have the balls to post as yourself.
??????????????????????????
Subterfuge? "Garys Muses Sockpuppet" is subterfuge???
Is someone here truly that big a naif? Yikes.
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it."
- G.B. Shaw
In article <SXF79.10302$LO1.802942@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "cmsix"
<cmsix@hotmail.com> writes:
And thank you
for your diligent effort in trying to make it seem as childish and trivial
as possible. I only regret that you resorted to some type of subterfuge to
do it and that you didn't have the balls to post as yourself.
cmsix
Okay. I've not responded in this Tank for a couple of reasons (primarily time
constraints - gads, I hate moving, and summer school started this week, excuse,
excuse, excuse), but I'm going to step in for a moment here. There were some
good things about this story. I happen to like the idea of wiping out 98% of
the population. Where exactly do I pick up the application to be on that
selection committee? I also sort of like the idea of the human race being an
alien-race experiment. It explains one of my cow-workers a bit <g> (doesn't
make me like her any more, but it explains her).
The author has said somewhere earlier in the FT thread that he fully intended
this to be a stroke story. A fantasy. After all, this is alt.SEX.stories.d,
right? Many readers look to assm for the "story" part of that, but more
probably look to it for the Sex part. And, as the author has pointed out, most
of his fans are from Stories Online, not from assm/assd. Lazeez has repeatedly
pointed out that the average SO reader seems to mostly want inc/nc/mc/stroke
stories. I think that perhaps it's important to keep that audience in mind when
responding to this story. This story is geared towards that audience that
reads sex stories solely for the sex. They want trivial stories. That's
what stroke is about. Screw motivation. Screw heavy science. Screw timelines
and details and background and resolution. Those things fog up the mental
images. Screw. Just screw. A lot.
However, it IS being posted to ASSD and the ASSD community as part of a
writer's workshop. The Fish Tank has always been about helping to make better
stories. And it has succeeded (IMHO) in every single instance. The readers
and participants of the FT have, across the board, found something good to say
about the stories, and something that could make the story better. Not once
has someone said, "Nope. Sorry. There's no hope at all for this one.
Disconnect the hoses, turn off the machines, and let it die, please." That
doesn't mean that an author has to accept ALL of the suggestions. Goodness no,
of course not. But if a writer isn't interested in taking suggestions beyond,
"here's a missed comma," the story doesn't belong in the tank. Q.E.D.
First of all, "subterfuge" is a bit strong. Gary's name is on this post. He
could have posted it with his normal e-mail address in the response line, but
he quite often posts from "Muse's Sockpuppet." I can't for the briefest of
moments honestly think that he was trying to trick anyone at all. The "two and
two" guidelines for the Tank (iirc, of course) are suggestions to keep one
person from 'hogging' all of the more obvious suggestions. The points that
Gary was bringing up are very valid. Cmsix does have another story out there
that seems to relate to this one. Gary felt that it would enhance the plot to
this story. So he suggested that it be incorporated. Yes, "Red and Victor"
itself wasn't in the Tank, but Gary was aware of it and made an honest
suggestion.
Cmsix has spent quite a bit of this thread "explaining" the aliens. The
readers of the Tank aren't idiots. If it needs that much explaining, then
perhaps explaining it to readers won't hurt. Who knows, it might even pick up
a few extra readers. Those people who said to themselves, "the timelines here
are distracting and don't make sense," might stay and read more if it DOES make
sense.
Now, let me see if I understand this correctly. This story (as I've read it so
far) involves an alien civilization which has decided that the earth's
population no longer merits continued existence. So they introduce a 'virus'
to wipe out 98% of the population, leaving a male to female ratio of 1:4 and
keeping only the females who have huge breasts, tight pussies, softly rounded
hips (because, of course, those are the only ones who are "robustly healthy"),
and are undeniably, unbearably sexually attracted to the men (well, to Jack at
least) left on earth, regardless of the looks or personality or intelligence or
conversational skills that those men possess. None of these women look at the
remaining men and say, "hmmm, no. I'll just stick with the women, TYVM."
They're all bisexual, right? ALL of them. And the few holdouts are 'converted'
to bisexuality by the sheer force of Jack's sexual abilities. They just hadn't
met the right man, right?
Are you sure that it's Gary who was making it seem childish?
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/
http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
Celebrating the Events of ASSD/ASSM/ASSTR:
http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/HIA_Events.htm
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:32:17 GMT
Thank your for taking your time to read this chapter of NanoVirus and for
commenting on it and commenting on the comments about it.
"Alexis Siefert" <alexisinalaska@aol.communicate> wrote in message
news:20020818052608.03599.00000067@mb-fk.aol.com ...
In article <SXF79.10302$LO1.802942@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"cmsix"
<cmsix@hotmail.com> writes:
And thank you
for your diligent effort in trying to make it seem as childish and
trivial
as possible. I only regret that you resorted to some type of subterfuge
to
do it and that you didn't have the balls to post as yourself.
cmsix
Okay. I've not responded in this Tank for a couple of reasons (primarily
time
constraints - gads, I hate moving, and summer school started this week,
excuse,
excuse, excuse), but I'm going to step in for a moment here. There were
some
good things about this story. I happen to like the idea of wiping out 98%
of
the population. Where exactly do I pick up the application to be on that
selection committee? I also sort of like the idea of the human race being
an
alien-race experiment. It explains one of my cow-workers a bit <g>
(doesn't
make me like her any more, but it explains her).
The author has said somewhere earlier in the FT thread that he fully
intended
this to be a stroke story. A fantasy. After all, this is
alt.SEX.stories.d,
right? Many readers look to assm for the "story" part of that, but more
probably look to it for the Sex part. And, as the author has pointed out,
most
of his fans are from Stories Online, not from assm/assd. Lazeez has
repeatedly
pointed out that the average SO reader seems to mostly want
inc/nc/mc/stroke
stories. I think that perhaps it's important to keep that audience in mind
when
responding to this story. This story is geared towards that audience that
reads sex stories solely for the sex. They want trivial stories.
That's
what stroke is about. Screw motivation. Screw heavy science. Screw
timelines
and details and background and resolution. Those things fog up the mental
images. Screw. Just screw. A lot.
However, it IS being posted to ASSD and the ASSD community as part of a
writer's workshop. The Fish Tank has always been about helping to make
better
stories. And it has succeeded (IMHO) in every single instance. The
readers
and participants of the FT have, across the board, found something good to
say
about the stories, and something that could make the story better. Not
once
has someone said, "Nope. Sorry. There's no hope at all for this one.
Disconnect the hoses, turn off the machines, and let it die, please."
That
doesn't mean that an author has to accept ALL of the suggestions.
Goodness no,
of course not. But if a writer isn't interested in taking suggestions
beyond,
"here's a missed comma," the story doesn't belong in the tank. Q.E.D.
First of all, "subterfuge" is a bit strong. Gary's name is on this post.
He
could have posted it with his normal e-mail address in the response line,
but
he quite often posts from "Muse's Sockpuppet." I can't for the briefest
of
moments honestly think that he was trying to trick anyone at all.
Then why do it? He'd already made a comment with the name I recognized. I
haven't been here long and using "find" for his Sockpuppet name revealed two
post out of the 2500 non spam messages that my newsreader shows for this
group found only two post with it and both were to this thread. Searching
Google for Garys, Muses, or Sockpuppets messages revealed no other messages
using this name in 2002. What was I to think? That the benevolent Garys
Muses Sockpuppte wanted to help me so bad that he appeared from nowhere to
comment on portions of the story that weren't even in the chapter that
everyone could read. Suggesting that I had written another 360k of text and
tried to disguise it since it clearly went nowhere without this story, which
began fully four years after it began. It doesn't even appear in NanoVirus
until chapter twelve.
The "two and
two" guidelines for the Tank (iirc, of course) are suggestions to keep one
person from 'hogging' all of the more obvious suggestions. The points
that
Gary was bringing up are very valid. Cmsix does have another story out
there
that seems to relate to this one. Gary felt that it would enhance the
plot to
this story. So he suggested that it be incorporated. Yes, "Red and
Victor"
itself wasn't in the Tank, but Gary was aware of it and made an honest
suggestion.
Honest suggestions are hard to take from a dishonest quarter.
Cmsix has spent quite a bit of this thread "explaining" the aliens. The
readers of the Tank aren't idiots. If it needs that much explaining, then
perhaps explaining it to readers won't hurt.
Most of the explanation was required for Gary and for Garys Muses
Sockpuppet. Both of whom complained about the timeline, which as I pointed
out is perfectly acceptable unless you are a creationist.
Gary Jordan said:
The aliens just don't seem ... real.
Garys Muses Sockpuppet said:
1. Make the aliens believable.
Gary Jordan said:
There just didn't seem to be any allowance for people exactly like Jack, but
who happened to be policemen or soldiers at the time of the virus. The
selection was TOO arbitrary.
Garys Muses Sockpuppet said:
Now, there's a logical criteria for elimination. Granted, a lot of
politicians
are on a power trip, but can't this intelligent virus determine those who
serve
and protect? Arbitrary and silly.
He not only took an extra turn under a different name, he repeated the same
suggestion. What am I missing here?
I'm missing the fact that Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet have the
same complaints with the story and don't even bother to mention that they're
repeating at all, much less mention that one is repeating the other, even
though they are both the same person.
No one else mentioned difficulty with the timeline. Maybe they felt it would
be repeating Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet.
Who knows, it might even pick up
a few extra readers. Those people who said to themselves, "the timelines
here
are distracting and don't make sense," might stay and read more if it DOES
make
sense.
That's just the point. The timeline does make sense, but since you have seen
both Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet complain about it, and since you
already know Gary Jordan, and Garys Muses Sockpuppet, and since I called his
hand on it, and since you were too tired to bother with me until I did, you
automatically assume that Gary is right and that I'm wrong, so you'll just
jump in here and take up for Gary and his Muses Sockpuppet. Now you get the
added advantage of sounding right whether you took the time to investigate
the timeline or not, and Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet get your
opinion to back up their claim.
Now, let me see if I understand this correctly. This story (as I've read
it so
far) involves an alien civilization which has decided that the earth's
population no longer merits continued existence. So they introduce a
'virus'
to wipe out 98% of the population, leaving a male to female ratio of 1:4
and
keeping only the females who have huge breasts, tight pussies, softly
rounded
hips (because, of course, those are the only ones who are "robustly
healthy"),
and are undeniably, unbearably sexually attracted to the men (well, to
Jack at
least) left on earth, regardless of the looks or personality or
intelligence or
conversational skills that those men possess. None of these women look at
the
remaining men and say, "hmmm, no. I'll just stick with the women, TYVM."
They're all bisexual, right? ALL of them. And the few holdouts are
'converted'
to bisexuality by the sheer force of Jack's sexual abilities. They just
hadn't
met the right man, right?
And how do you know this? Karen is the only woman that is described in the
chapter that I submitted to the "Fish Tank". Sexual preferences aren't
discussed in it. Bisexuality is not mentioned. Did you break out of your
justifiable fatigue and go read the other 1400k of the story so you could
make your own decision? Or did you take Gary Jordan's and Garys Muses
Sockpuppet's judgment for your own. I guess when you read it you also didn't
notice that it just might have been poking fun at itself and at most stories
like it without putting in the non-existent parody code that has become all
the rage lately. But of course I couldn't be good enough to do something
like that could I. After all I didn't even know that Gary Jordan and Garys
Muses Sockpuppet were one and the same. I was so stupid that I thought you
weren't suppoesed to repeat the comments you had just finished making
yourself. I'm obviously too stupid to even be posting on ASSD since Gary and
his Muses Sockpuppet don't approve.
And now, of course I've offended Alexis Siefert, who didn't have time to
read and comment on my submission until I tread on Gary Jordan and Garys
Muses Sockpuppet.
Are you sure that it's Gary who was making it seem childish?
You're right of course, it was childish of me to think that an outsider
would get the same respect that a regular member of this group would get. I
knew better than to comment on Garys Muses Sockpuppets duplicity. I knew
what to expect and you didn't disappoint me. Rally round the periscope and
let's all take up for Gary and his Muses Sockpuppet. How dare that cmsix
expect equal treatment or any treatment at all. I wouldn't even have given
his submission a cursory glance if he hadn't whined about Gary Jordan and
Garys Muses Sockpuppet taking both their rightful turns to complain about
the same things and make fun of his characters that couldn't possibly mean a
thing him. Why he's just writing stroke stories and he doesn't even post
them on ASSM.
Sorry to cut this short but I see that denny has jumped to Gary Jordan's and
Garys Muses Sockpuppet's defense.
Thank you again for taking your time, especially considering you time
restraints, to read this chapter of NanoVirus and to give me your opinion on
how I could improve it.
cmsix
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/
http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
Celebrating the Events of ASSD/ASSM/ASSTR:
http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/HIA_Events.htm
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Shon Richards
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:16:37 GMT
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5BL79.10287$I6.874286@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
You're right of course, it was childish of me to think that an outsider
would get the same respect that a regular member of this group would get.
The respect that a regular member would get is kind of a small value
around here. :) Really, some days I think its safer to be a new person
than a regular.
I
knew better than to comment on Garys Muses Sockpuppets duplicity.
Well, it did seem a bit odd. I mean, I didn't think you could possibly
be confused on his identity but there was always that chance. A good rule
of thumb in newsgroups is to not use sarcasm. Yes, its funny but sometimes
people aren't sure if you re being serious or not.
I knew
what to expect and you didn't disappoint me. Rally round the periscope and
let's all take up for Gary and his Muses Sockpuppet. How dare that cmsix
expect equal treatment or any treatment at all. I wouldn't even have given
his submission a cursory glance if he hadn't whined about Gary Jordan and
Garys Muses Sockpuppet taking both their rightful turns to complain about
the same things and make fun of his characters that couldn't possibly mean
a
thing him. Why he's just writing stroke stories and he doesn't even post
them on ASSM.
Okay, is this a feud-thing? See, sometimes people aren't aware of the
feuds that may boil around the group and people just comment on the part of
the feud they see. If you and Gary are having a feud, then go out to the
playground and settle it.
Sorry to cut this short but I see that denny has jumped to Gary Jordan's
and
Garys Muses Sockpuppet's defense.
Yeah, friends are bastards that way. They tend to rush in when the
naughty language goes flying.
I am greatly intrigued by your parody statement on Nanovirus. I was
under the impression it was a stroke-story on a Grand Scale. I didn't think
it was a parody. I'll feel stupid if it was.
I am also curious how many women have written in to say they liked it.
So far it seems to be mostly male-centric and I think it might have inspired
the more harsher statements from Alexis. I told my wife the plot to this
story and the frown on her face was priceless. Maybe women get offended
when they are told they will be spared from death and doom so their chests
can get bigger and they can be breeding partners for a new race.
Shon Richards
A good portion of my stories can be found at my never-finished website at
http://www.asstr.org/~ShonRichards/
All of them can be found through ftp at
http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/ShonRichards/
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:52:07 GMT
Shon
Jack has by now acquired over two hundred women to screw and impregnate. He
has a mind control technique that only requires him to penetrate the
victim's cervix and wiggle her clit rapidly to make her: orgasm to
unconsciousness and wake up madly in love with him and completely under his
control, not be a bit jealous of any of the other two hundred regular women
and the four or five thousand spares that are at his disposal, and willing
to kill and die for him. They all arrive for breakfast dressed only in a
long T-shirt and wait anxiously for their good morning kiss and inspection,
(that's a grin and an elbow to your ribs there about the inspections Shon,
get it, know what I mean). Don't you think that it might be poking just a
little fun at itself and others like it? Probably not, it's all perfectly
believable that some dumbass hick down in Texas would think people would
believe this kind of thing. Hell Shon, I didn't even have to start it out
with "You ain't gonna believe this shit."
It was just a coincidence that every woman had big titties, a tight pussy
and was startlingly beautiful. Everyone knows how much fun and what a turn
on it is to sit at the typewriter for hours trying to think of another way
to say "I put this there and she kissed that and nibbled this."
I don't know if Gary Jordan or Garys Muses Sockpuppet wanted a feud or not.
It doesn't really matter anymore does it? He managed to nit pick the aliens
for his own reasons until people are suggesting I read up on Nano Technology
(which is not even mentioned in the story anywhere except for the Nano in
the name of the virus) and they want me to figure out how to get the
spacemen to learn to use an intercom to call the main man so they won't have
to send a crewman. I can tell you Shon that it just wasn't that much trouble
for the crewman to go get the main man. It didn't make him feel used at all.
They didn't ask him to get them a cup of coffee or anything.
Thanks for actually believing, if only for a second or two, that I might not
have spent three months and typed in 1450k of strictly stroke. I couldn't
have been poking fun though Shon, Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Stockpuppet
have read the whole thing and they would have noticed.
cmsix
"Shon" <shonrichardshsd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:FeM79.10567$LO1.842935@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5BL79.10287$I6.874286@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
You're right of course, it was childish of me to think that an outsider
would get the same respect that a regular member of this group would
get.
The respect that a regular member would get is kind of a small value
around here. :) Really, some days I think its safer to be a new person
than a regular.
I
knew better than to comment on Garys Muses Sockpuppets duplicity.
Well, it did seem a bit odd. I mean, I didn't think you could
possibly
be confused on his identity but there was always that chance. A good rule
of thumb in newsgroups is to not use sarcasm. Yes, its funny but
sometimes
people aren't sure if you re being serious or not.
I knew
what to expect and you didn't disappoint me. Rally round the periscope
and
let's all take up for Gary and his Muses Sockpuppet. How dare that cmsix
expect equal treatment or any treatment at all. I wouldn't even have
given
his submission a cursory glance if he hadn't whined about Gary Jordan
and
Garys Muses Sockpuppet taking both their rightful turns to complain
about
the same things and make fun of his characters that couldn't possibly
mean
a
thing him. Why he's just writing stroke stories and he doesn't even post
them on ASSM.
Okay, is this a feud-thing? See, sometimes people aren't aware of the
feuds that may boil around the group and people just comment on the part
of
the feud they see. If you and Gary are having a feud, then go out to the
playground and settle it.
Sorry to cut this short but I see that denny has jumped to Gary Jordan's
and
Garys Muses Sockpuppet's defense.
Yeah, friends are bastards that way. They tend to rush in when the
naughty language goes flying.
I am greatly intrigued by your parody statement on Nanovirus. I was
under the impression it was a stroke-story on a Grand Scale. I didn't
think
it was a parody. I'll feel stupid if it was.
I am also curious how many women have written in to say they liked it.
So far it seems to be mostly male-centric and I think it might have
inspired
the more harsher statements from Alexis. I told my wife the plot to this
story and the frown on her face was priceless. Maybe women get offended
when they are told they will be spared from death and doom so their chests
can get bigger and they can be breeding partners for a new race.
-
Shon Richards
A good portion of my stories can be found at my never-finished website at
http://www.asstr.org/~ShonRichards/
All of them can be found through ftp at
http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/ShonRichards/
From: Shon Richards
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 01:42:10 GMT
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XLM79.10352$I6.882882@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
Shon
Probably not, it's all perfectly
believable that some dumbass hick down in Texas would think people would
believe this kind of thing. Hell Shon, I didn't even have to start it out
with "You ain't gonna believe this shit."
Your hostility is cute. I notice in your response to other people's
posts that you keep bringing up that you're from Texas and we think you are
a hick. Since you don't include as a signature that you are "cmsix, a dumb
hick from texas", I would stop being paranoid about it. I'm from North
Carolina and when people think I suck, I don't blame my state even though no
one would blame me :)
It was just a coincidence that every woman had big titties, a tight pussy
and was startlingly beautiful. Everyone knows how much fun and what a turn
on it is to sit at the typewriter for hours trying to think of another way
to say "I put this there and she kissed that and nibbled this."
Ohhhhhhhhh. See, this is where we have confusion. I write stories that
I find fun. I couldn't imagine writing stories that are not fun for me to
write. Why do you do it?
Shon Richards
A good portion of my stories can be found at my never-finished website at
http://www.asstr.org/~ShonRichards/
All of them can be found through ftp at
http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/ShonRichards/
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:41:10 -0600
On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 01:42:10 GMT, "Shon"
<shonrichardshsd@earthlink.net> wrote:
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XLM79.10352$I6.882882@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
Shon
Probably not, it's all perfectly
believable that some dumbass hick down in Texas would think people would
believe this kind of thing. Hell Shon, I didn't even have to start it out
with "You ain't gonna believe this shit."
Your hostility is cute. I notice in your response to other people's
posts that you keep bringing up that you're from Texas and we think you are
a hick. Since you don't include as a signature that you are "cmsix, a dumb
hick from texas", I would stop being paranoid about it. I'm from North
Carolina and when people think I suck, I don't blame my state even though no
one would blame me :)
Or wherever else we're from. Hicks live all over ;-)
As for believability, part of what makes a story good can be the
ability to believe in it, even if the events are unlikely. When there
are inconsistencies within its own structure and big holes left for
questions, people can wonder.
It may not affect the sexual enjoyment of the reading. But
intellectually it can be rather important. And I do think that Fish
Tank pays more attention to the thinking sides of things.
Maybe it may seem odd too, but when I write that is where my effort
tends to be at. The sensual, sexual elements come when thinking up
the story, dreaming about it, figuring out what I want to write about.
When I go to put words on the screen or paper, I am more aware of the
sytle and structure, less of the feel. I hope that I get the emotions
across, the details right, and don't confuse the reader too much.
Having an editor helps with that, but the writer still needs to get
the basic elements down right.
It was just a coincidence that every woman had big titties, a tight pussy
and was startlingly beautiful. Everyone knows how much fun and what a turn
on it is to sit at the typewriter for hours trying to think of another way
to say "I put this there and she kissed that and nibbled this."
Ohhhhhhhhh. See, this is where we have confusion. I write stories that
I find fun. I couldn't imagine writing stories that are not fun for me to
write. Why do you do it?
cmsix may have been joking, I don't know. I find writing about the
details of sex interesting, and in RL practice find the various ways
things aren't the same each time exciting. Maybe some people have
more boring sex lives, and I do think it is all too easy to go on
and on about the sex. But if it is interesting, why not?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Tenyari
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:44:11 GMT
It was just a coincidence that every woman had big titties, a tight pussy
and was startlingly beautiful. Everyone knows how much fun and what a turn
on it is to sit at the typewriter for hours trying to think of another way
to say "I put this there and she kissed that and nibbled this."
Yeah, It's a blast.
A close friend of mine who's been a published Lesbian Erotica writer
since the 80's says she can't stop breaking down into giggles whenever
she gets to that point.
I half agree, though I try for a more serious approach. I still find
it quite fun.
Haven't put up any of my graphic sex yet, but it was fun writing it
anyway.
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ).
If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it was about a girl and a half.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 21:48:20 -0600
On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:44:11 GMT, tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
It was just a coincidence that every woman had big titties, a tight pussy
and was startlingly beautiful. Everyone knows how much fun and what a turn
on it is to sit at the typewriter for hours trying to think of another way
to say "I put this there and she kissed that and nibbled this."
Yeah, It's a blast.
A close friend of mine who's been a published Lesbian Erotica writer
since the 80's says she can't stop breaking down into giggles whenever
she gets to that point.
I half agree, though I try for a more serious approach. I still find
it quite fun.
I don't know. If you're trying for the outrageous purple porn prose
sex, then yes, trying to do that is funny. If you take it more
seriously, I think that the lust-driven writing tends not to provoke
giggles. Something alone the lines of it being OK to laugh with your
lover in bed, but not AT your lover ;-)
Haven't put up any of my graphic sex yet, but it was fun writing it
anyway.
I think I've written some of that :-) How graphic does it have to
be in order to count?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: celia batau
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:33:53 -0700
hi cmsix!
we think that what you say is just as important as anyone else says. but
assd, and esp the fishtank, seem more geared toward building stories, and
maybe in this case, your story was maybe misunderstood maybe?
we think you were right about the timeline. the sun is five billion years
old. the earth is four and a half. one billion of those years involved the
cooling of the planet and the long space where only single-celled organisms
thrived.
we liked the story and hope that we or anyone else didn't sound too harsh.
we're just rtrying to help. :)
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
Everybody jumping jumping
Everybody dancing now
Ay Mama
Que sabrosa tu estás
-Rabanes
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5BL79.10287$I6.874286@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
Thank your for taking your time to read this chapter of NanoVirus and for
commenting on it and commenting on the comments about it.
"Alexis Siefert" <alexisinalaska@aol.communicate> wrote in message
news:20020818052608.03599.00000067@mb-fk.aol.com ...
In article <SXF79.10302$LO1.802942@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"cmsix"
<cmsix@hotmail.com> writes:
And thank you
for your diligent effort in trying to make it seem as childish and
trivial
as possible. I only regret that you resorted to some type of subterfuge
to
do it and that you didn't have the balls to post as yourself.
cmsix
Okay. I've not responded in this Tank for a couple of reasons
(primarily
time
constraints - gads, I hate moving, and summer school started this week,
excuse,
excuse, excuse), but I'm going to step in for a moment here. There were
some
good things about this story. I happen to like the idea of wiping out
98%
of
the population. Where exactly do I pick up the application to be on
that
selection committee? I also sort of like the idea of the human race
being
an
alien-race experiment. It explains one of my cow-workers a bit <g>
(doesn't
make me like her any more, but it explains her).
The author has said somewhere earlier in the FT thread that he fully
intended
this to be a stroke story. A fantasy. After all, this is
alt.SEX.stories.d,
right? Many readers look to assm for the "story" part of that, but more
probably look to it for the Sex part. And, as the author has pointed
out,
most
of his fans are from Stories Online, not from assm/assd. Lazeez has
repeatedly
pointed out that the average SO reader seems to mostly want
inc/nc/mc/stroke
stories. I think that perhaps it's important to keep that audience in
mind
when
responding to this story. This story is geared towards that audience
that
reads sex stories solely for the sex. They want trivial stories.
That's
what stroke is about. Screw motivation. Screw heavy science. Screw
timelines
and details and background and resolution. Those things fog up the
mental
images. Screw. Just screw. A lot.
However, it IS being posted to ASSD and the ASSD community as part of a
writer's workshop. The Fish Tank has always been about helping to make
better
stories. And it has succeeded (IMHO) in every single instance. The
readers
and participants of the FT have, across the board, found something good
to
say
about the stories, and something that could make the story better.
Not
once
has someone said, "Nope. Sorry. There's no hope at all for this one.
Disconnect the hoses, turn off the machines, and let it die, please."
That
doesn't mean that an author has to accept ALL of the suggestions.
Goodness no,
of course not. But if a writer isn't interested in taking suggestions
beyond,
"here's a missed comma," the story doesn't belong in the tank. Q.E.D.
First of all, "subterfuge" is a bit strong. Gary's name is on this
post.
He
could have posted it with his normal e-mail address in the response
line,
but
he quite often posts from "Muse's Sockpuppet." I can't for the briefest
of
moments honestly think that he was trying to trick anyone at all.
Then why do it? He'd already made a comment with the name I recognized. I
haven't been here long and using "find" for his Sockpuppet name revealed
two
post out of the 2500 non spam messages that my newsreader shows for this
group found only two post with it and both were to this thread. Searching
Google for Garys, Muses, or Sockpuppets messages revealed no other
messages
using this name in 2002. What was I to think? That the benevolent Garys
Muses Sockpuppte wanted to help me so bad that he appeared from nowhere to
comment on portions of the story that weren't even in the chapter that
everyone could read. Suggesting that I had written another 360k of text
and
tried to disguise it since it clearly went nowhere without this story,
which
began fully four years after it began. It doesn't even appear in NanoVirus
until chapter twelve.
The "two and
two" guidelines for the Tank (iirc, of course) are suggestions to keep
one
person from 'hogging' all of the more obvious suggestions. The points
that
Gary was bringing up are very valid. Cmsix does have another story out
there
that seems to relate to this one. Gary felt that it would enhance the
plot to
this story. So he suggested that it be incorporated. Yes, "Red and
Victor"
itself wasn't in the Tank, but Gary was aware of it and made an honest
suggestion.
Honest suggestions are hard to take from a dishonest quarter.
Cmsix has spent quite a bit of this thread "explaining" the aliens. The
readers of the Tank aren't idiots. If it needs that much explaining,
then
perhaps explaining it to readers won't hurt.
Most of the explanation was required for Gary and for Garys Muses
Sockpuppet. Both of whom complained about the timeline, which as I pointed
out is perfectly acceptable unless you are a creationist.
Gary Jordan said:
The aliens just don't seem ... real.
Garys Muses Sockpuppet said:
1. Make the aliens believable.
Gary Jordan said:
There just didn't seem to be any allowance for people exactly like Jack,
but
who happened to be policemen or soldiers at the time of the virus. The
selection was TOO arbitrary.
Garys Muses Sockpuppet said:
Now, there's a logical criteria for elimination. Granted, a lot of
politicians
are on a power trip, but can't this intelligent virus determine those who
serve
and protect? Arbitrary and silly.
He not only took an extra turn under a different name, he repeated the
same
suggestion. What am I missing here?
I'm missing the fact that Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet have the
same complaints with the story and don't even bother to mention that
they're
repeating at all, much less mention that one is repeating the other, even
though they are both the same person.
No one else mentioned difficulty with the timeline. Maybe they felt it
would
be repeating Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet.
Who knows, it might even pick up
a few extra readers. Those people who said to themselves, "the
timelines
here
are distracting and don't make sense," might stay and read more if it
DOES
make
sense.
That's just the point. The timeline does make sense, but since you have
seen
both Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet complain about it, and since
you
already know Gary Jordan, and Garys Muses Sockpuppet, and since I called
his
hand on it, and since you were too tired to bother with me until I did,
you
automatically assume that Gary is right and that I'm wrong, so you'll just
jump in here and take up for Gary and his Muses Sockpuppet. Now you get
the
added advantage of sounding right whether you took the time to investigate
the timeline or not, and Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet get your
opinion to back up their claim.
Now, let me see if I understand this correctly. This story (as I've
read
it so
far) involves an alien civilization which has decided that the earth's
population no longer merits continued existence. So they introduce a
'virus'
to wipe out 98% of the population, leaving a male to female ratio of 1:4
and
keeping only the females who have huge breasts, tight pussies, softly
rounded
hips (because, of course, those are the only ones who are "robustly
healthy"),
and are undeniably, unbearably sexually attracted to the men (well, to
Jack at
least) left on earth, regardless of the looks or personality or
intelligence or
conversational skills that those men possess. None of these women look
at
the
remaining men and say, "hmmm, no. I'll just stick with the women,
TYVM."
They're all bisexual, right? ALL of them. And the few holdouts are
'converted'
to bisexuality by the sheer force of Jack's sexual abilities. They just
hadn't
met the right man, right?
And how do you know this? Karen is the only woman that is described in the
chapter that I submitted to the "Fish Tank". Sexual preferences aren't
discussed in it. Bisexuality is not mentioned. Did you break out of your
justifiable fatigue and go read the other 1400k of the story so you could
make your own decision? Or did you take Gary Jordan's and Garys Muses
Sockpuppet's judgment for your own. I guess when you read it you also
didn't
notice that it just might have been poking fun at itself and at most
stories
like it without putting in the non-existent parody code that has become
all
the rage lately. But of course I couldn't be good enough to do something
like that could I. After all I didn't even know that Gary Jordan and Garys
Muses Sockpuppet were one and the same. I was so stupid that I thought you
weren't suppoesed to repeat the comments you had just finished making
yourself. I'm obviously too stupid to even be posting on ASSD since Gary
and
his Muses Sockpuppet don't approve.
And now, of course I've offended Alexis Siefert, who didn't have time to
read and comment on my submission until I tread on Gary Jordan and Garys
Muses Sockpuppet.
Are you sure that it's Gary who was making it seem childish?
You're right of course, it was childish of me to think that an outsider
would get the same respect that a regular member of this group would get.
I
knew better than to comment on Garys Muses Sockpuppets duplicity. I knew
what to expect and you didn't disappoint me. Rally round the periscope and
let's all take up for Gary and his Muses Sockpuppet. How dare that cmsix
expect equal treatment or any treatment at all. I wouldn't even have given
his submission a cursory glance if he hadn't whined about Gary Jordan and
Garys Muses Sockpuppet taking both their rightful turns to complain about
the same things and make fun of his characters that couldn't possibly mean
a
thing him. Why he's just writing stroke stories and he doesn't even post
them on ASSM.
Sorry to cut this short but I see that denny has jumped to Gary Jordan's
and
Garys Muses Sockpuppet's defense.
Thank you again for taking your time, especially considering you time
restraints, to read this chapter of NanoVirus and to give me your opinion
on
how I could improve it.
cmsix
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:52:04 -0700
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:32:17 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> held
forth, saying:
Sorry to cut this short but I see that denny has jumped to Gary Jordan's and
Garys Muses Sockpuppet's defense.
Nope. denny is well aware that Gary, his muse, and the muse's
sockpuppet don't require my help.
Several things struck me, though, and I condensed them into one very
short post. I'll expand here.
(1) YOU sent the story to Desdmona for FishTank critiquing, yes?
You're not the first FT participant who has received the type of
critique Gary gave through his "Muse's Sockpuppet" nym - you're just
the first to react as you've done.
(2) "Garys Muses Sockpuppet" is pretty damn transparent - especially as
there is Google available. Gary's never pretended that the Muse's
sockpuppet wasn't him; you're comparatively new to ASSD, so hadn't
seen any of those posts before. So? Is it 'subterfuge' if I change
my 'from' field to call myself "Denny on Sunday"?
(3) Evidently - based on Lazeez's 'Top Twenty' list - "Nanovirus" is
very popular with the readership at StoriesOnline. How nice for you.
May I respectfully remind you that 'popular' and 'well-written' aren't
necessarily synonymous? Clearly they can both be said of some
stories - Al Steiner's two novels come to mind, as do a number of other
works. But for 'popular' - probably the most popular story posted to
the ASS* groups in at least the last 4 years is "Call Girl
Cheerleaders."
Here's part of what MichaelD said about its writing:
"5) Pander to the Most Common Fetishes
Three words here: Blonde. Teenage. Cheerleader.
When I first began work on CGC, I wanted a setting that would pander
as shamelessly as possible to what I thought were the most popular
fetishes. While writing as MichaelD, I had made a point of studiously
avoiding cliches even as I focused largely on what might be
euphemistically referred to as "emerging sexuality." I didn't want to
do that with CGC; I wanted to embrace the cliches and breathe life
into them. I finally settled on a scenario of a squad of horny
teenage cheerleaders doing their best to screw some rich
middle-aged guy half to death. "
(the complete post may be found by Googling for "How to Pull in the
Mail", poster michaeld38 or here:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R1EB25C81 )
Where I'm trying to go with this paragraph - and I wandered - is that
I'm sure you've received a lot of 'strokes' from the readers at
Stories Online. "Don't start believing your press clippings." I
suspect - I can't speak from the perspective of a fiction writer, as I
don't write stories - that one email of negatives is worth more in
terms of eventual better writing and storytelling than 25 emails of
the "I love it, write more!" kind.
(4) Okay, so you've written an SF-based stroke piece. If you think
the criticisms of the SF part were unfair and cruel ('be nice to my
baby') you "ain't seen nothing yet." There are a LOT of
SF-knowledgeable folk on Usenet, and many of them have very sharp
teeth and big nasty claws. You're lucky so far - none of those folk
have publicly discussed NV. My point in this paragraph is 'try to
make the SF a bit believable.' Or, use a broader brush and make the
aliens obviously a joke.
You - based on your posts here over the past few weeks - seem to be a
good guy. Right now, you feel attacked. Relax. Nobody's attacking
you. (you want to feel attacked? go to a certain newsgroup and
comment that [fex] 'women can do nothing to better fulfil themselves
than having children' - or even words which can be so construed.
Then duck.)
Separate things - criticism of NV, even should the criticism be much
harsher than you've received, is NOT an attack on you. You're unhappy
with what Gary had to say about it - but note that he's read the whole
thing, and he'd read the other story too. Would he have done that if
he found it worthless? Not bloody likely, imo.
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it."
- G.B. Shaw
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 02:16:28 GMT
(1) YOU sent the story to Desdmona for FishTank critiquing, yes?
You're not the first FT participant who has received the type of
critique Gary gave through his "Muse's Sockpuppet" nym - you're just
the first to react as you've done.
dennyw
Thank you for setting me straight. I did submit my chapter to the "Fish
Tank" and I welcomed the critiquing. I'm sorry I attacked Garys Muses
Sockpuppet for his post. After realizing my error I did google for his
earlier post, I guess I'm not really good at using google, I couldn't find
any articles by Garys Muses Sockpuppet in any "Fish Tank" thread other than
the one I was involved in.
Subject: Re: {ASSD} A matter of identity
Newsgroups: alt.sex.stories.d
Date: 2001-12-10 11:45:36 PST
<large snip, probably an attempt by me to quote out of context>
Gary only writes stories under his own name, with the email addy
pjcocoa@aol.com. But he has used other screennames to post, particularly
to
ASSD. Some are fairly obvious <G>. Some were less so. None were used to
attack anyone, nor for any nefarious purpose.
Currently he uses:
Gary Jordan (pjcocoa@aol.com) for stories
Gary Jordan (SilverNominees@aol.com) for Silver Clitorides Nominations
Gary Jordan (SilverVoting@aol.com) for Silver Clitorides Voting
Gary's Muse's Sockpuppet (RomancesFool@aol.com) for poking fun at himself
and other fun.
WaverlyVirginia@aol.com not used in reference to ASS*.
You can imagine my relief to find that I was obviously "other fun"
cmsix
<dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:9nsvlu0kedrmhlnf63c9pm822giec4fvnk@4ax.com ...
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:32:17 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> held
forth, saying:
Sorry to cut this short but I see that denny has jumped to Gary Jordan's
and
Garys Muses Sockpuppet's defense.
Nope. denny is well aware that Gary, his muse, and the muse's
sockpuppet don't require my help.
Several things struck me, though, and I condensed them into one very
short post. I'll expand here.
(1) YOU sent the story to Desdmona for FishTank critiquing, yes?
You're not the first FT participant who has received the type of
critique Gary gave through his "Muse's Sockpuppet" nym - you're just
the first to react as you've done.
(2) "Garys Muses Sockpuppet" is pretty damn transparent - especially as
there is Google available. Gary's never pretended that the Muse's
sockpuppet wasn't him; you're comparatively new to ASSD, so hadn't
seen any of those posts before. So? Is it 'subterfuge' if I change
my 'from' field to call myself "Denny on Sunday"?
(3) Evidently - based on Lazeez's 'Top Twenty' list - "Nanovirus" is
very popular with the readership at StoriesOnline. How nice for you.
May I respectfully remind you that 'popular' and 'well-written' aren't
necessarily synonymous? Clearly they can both be said of some
stories - Al Steiner's two novels come to mind, as do a number of other
works. But for 'popular' - probably the most popular story posted to
the ASS* groups in at least the last 4 years is "Call Girl
Cheerleaders."
Here's part of what MichaelD said about its writing:
"5) Pander to the Most Common Fetishes
Three words here: Blonde. Teenage. Cheerleader.
When I first began work on CGC, I wanted a setting that would pander
as shamelessly as possible to what I thought were the most popular
fetishes. While writing as MichaelD, I had made a point of studiously
avoiding cliches even as I focused largely on what might be
euphemistically referred to as "emerging sexuality." I didn't want to
do that with CGC; I wanted to embrace the cliches and breathe life
into them. I finally settled on a scenario of a squad of horny
teenage cheerleaders doing their best to screw some rich
middle-aged guy half to death. "
(the complete post may be found by Googling for "How to Pull in the
Mail", poster michaeld38 or here:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R1EB25C81 )
Where I'm trying to go with this paragraph - and I wandered - is that
I'm sure you've received a lot of 'strokes' from the readers at
Stories Online. "Don't start believing your press clippings." I
suspect - I can't speak from the perspective of a fiction writer, as I
don't write stories - that one email of negatives is worth more in
terms of eventual better writing and storytelling than 25 emails of
the "I love it, write more!" kind.
(4) Okay, so you've written an SF-based stroke piece. If you think
the criticisms of the SF part were unfair and cruel ('be nice to my
baby') you "ain't seen nothing yet." There are a LOT of
SF-knowledgeable folk on Usenet, and many of them have very sharp
teeth and big nasty claws. You're lucky so far - none of those folk
have publicly discussed NV. My point in this paragraph is 'try to
make the SF a bit believable.' Or, use a broader brush and make the
aliens obviously a joke.
You - based on your posts here over the past few weeks - seem to be a
good guy. Right now, you feel attacked. Relax. Nobody's attacking
you. (you want to feel attacked? go to a certain newsgroup and
comment that [fex] 'women can do nothing to better fulfil themselves
than having children' - or even words which can be so construed.
Then duck.)
Separate things - criticism of NV, even should the criticism be much
harsher than you've received, is NOT an attack on you. You're unhappy
with what Gary had to say about it - but note that he's read the whole
thing, and he'd read the other story too. Would he have done that if
he found it worthless? Not bloody likely, imo.
-
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it."
- G.B. Shaw
From: Bradley Stoke
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 19 Aug 2002 12:56:02 -0700
Denny
You said:
"I suspect—I can't speak from the perspective of a fiction writer, as
I don't write stories—that one email of negatives is worth more in
terms of eventual better writing and storytelling than 25 emails of
the "I love it, write more!" kind."
I can't claim to be one of ASSD's most popular writers on Stories
OnLine or anywhere else, so I don't know how representative my
experience of feedback might be, but I certainly wouldn't say that one
negative e-mail is worth more than 25 positive ones. I can see where
you're coming from. The idea is that most readers only want to give
praise, and only a few would stick their neck out to criticise one's
stories. It certainly corresponds to my practise. I only write
feedback when I've liked something and I only give a vote for a story
if it's a good one.
However, my stories seem to have gained a very mixed reaction.
Although, I get my share of praise (and some has been very nice
indeed), I also attract some quite negative feedback and some negative
votes. Whatever it is that distinguishes my stories, they certainly
rile a substantial minority of sex fiction readers. However, I've yet
to discern any real pattern in the criticism. It's not like they all
say I don't write well. No one's said that. Or that I feature sexual
activity that is upsetting (which I don't very much). Or anything
consistent like that. It's as if every person who's hated my stories
to the extent of rushing off an e-mail has found something distinct
and unexpected to take offence at.
The only consistency I've noticed amongst my negative feedback,
however, is a strange predilection for writing e-mails entirely in
upper case, a total inability to spell and an insensitive tendency to
be abusive to my person and my sexual identity. Oh! And they're always
anonymous. If csmsix's negative feedback was of the same nature as
that which I receive, I would suggest he press the delete button
rather than attempt to learn from them.
Bradley Stoke
http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke
From: oosh
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:04:48 +0000 (UTC)
bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley Stoke) wrote in
news:aaacc8d6.0208191156.4d8aacf9@posting.google.com:
The only consistency I've noticed amongst my negative feedback,
however, is a strange predilection for writing e-mails entirely in
upper case, a total inability to spell and an insensitive tendency to
be abusive to my person and my sexual identity. Oh! And they're always
anonymous.
Grim! I've not yet had to endure that annoyance. Just a matter of time,
probably.
O.
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:30:23 GMT
On 19 Aug 2002 12:56:02 -0700, bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley
Stoke) wrote:
Denny
You said:
"I suspect—I can't speak from the perspective of a fiction writer, as
I don't write stories—that one email of negatives is worth more in
terms of eventual better writing and storytelling than 25 emails of
the "I love it, write more!" kind."
I can't claim to be one of ASSD's most popular writers on Stories
OnLine or anywhere else, so I don't know how representative my
experience of feedback might be, but I certainly wouldn't say that one
negative e-mail is worth more than 25 positive ones. I can see where
you're coming from. The idea is that most readers only want to give
praise, and only a few would stick their neck out to criticise one's
stories. It certainly corresponds to my practise. I only write
feedback when I've liked something and I only give a vote for a story
if it's a good one.
Well, of course when I said 'email of negatives' I didn't mean the
mirror-image of "I love it!" - I meant the kind of things that are
written as 'things to improve' in the FT.
Though I agree - if I write feedback to someone about a story, it's
generally praise. Assuming it's not a regular correspondent; those
I will write to critically - as I probably would most authors who are
regulars on ASSD. However, in those cases, I'd no doubt be writing
both 'this is good' and 'this could be better' type stuff. I hope.
(I'm naturally critical)
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:41:01 -0600
On 19 Aug 2002 12:56:02 -0700, bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley
Stoke) wrote:
Denny
You said:
"I suspect—I can't speak from the perspective of a fiction writer, as
I don't write stories—that one email of negatives is worth more in
terms of eventual better writing and storytelling than 25 emails of
the "I love it, write more!" kind."
I can't claim to be one of ASSD's most popular writers on Stories
OnLine or anywhere else, so I don't know how representative my
experience of feedback might be, but I certainly wouldn't say that one
negative e-mail is worth more than 25 positive ones. I can see where
you're coming from. The idea is that most readers only want to give
praise, and only a few would stick their neck out to criticise one's
stories. It certainly corresponds to my practise. I only write
feedback when I've liked something and I only give a vote for a story
if it's a good one.
Criticism, at least somewhat intelligent criticism, can be useful.
I kind of like a bit of an introduction from a correspondent before
getting into hard criticism, and tend to try to do that myself. Say a
few nice things, maybe a couple things which could be done
differently, but nothing heavy at first.
A good editor friend can be a lot rougher, and not annoy me so much.
A stranger doing the same, out of the blue, may take a while to get
the same respect.
However, my stories seem to have gained a very mixed reaction.
Although, I get my share of praise (and some has been very nice
indeed), I also attract some quite negative feedback and some negative
votes. Whatever it is that distinguishes my stories, they certainly
rile a substantial minority of sex fiction readers. However, I've yet
to discern any real pattern in the criticism. It's not like they all
say I don't write well. No one's said that. Or that I feature sexual
activity that is upsetting (which I don't very much). Or anything
consistent like that. It's as if every person who's hated my stories
to the extent of rushing off an e-mail has found something distinct
and unexpected to take offence at.
The only consistency I've noticed amongst my negative feedback,
however, is a strange predilection for writing e-mails entirely in
upper case, a total inability to spell and an insensitive tendency to
be abusive to my person and my sexual identity. Oh! And they're always
anonymous. If csmsix's negative feedback was of the same nature as
that which I receive, I would suggest he press the delete button
rather than attempt to learn from them.
I definitely think that being a bit polite to them, on the order of
"Thanks for writing, and I'm glad you enjoyed reading my story enough
to respond" sort of thing, is OK.
But don't get bogged down in a flame email dialog. I don't know if
that would happen, anon mailers often can't be responded to.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Tenyari
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:38:59 GMT
On 19 Aug 2002 12:56:02 -0700, bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley
Stoke) wrote:
The only consistency I've noticed amongst my negative feedback,
however, is a strange predilection for writing e-mails entirely in
upper case, a total inability to spell and an insensitive tendency to
be abusive to my person and my sexual identity. Oh! And they're always
anonymous.
I've only been given three negative feedbacks so far (I'm new enough,
and only have a few stories out there). They all had the same pattern:
anonymous
about race
totally misunderstood some racial minority
missed the fact that they referred to something not in my story.
For example, somebody sending me an email blaming rap music for all
the problems with blacks. Never mind my story having no references to
rap, and a Native American lead character.
Still, I attempt to address some of them anyway:
http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=2432067#post2432067
Even when they're really bad, they can get you going ...
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ).
If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it was about a girl and a half.
In article <5BL79.10287$I6.874286@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "cmsix"
<cmsix@hotmail.com> writes:
Thank your for taking your time to read this chapter of NanoVirus and for
commenting on it and commenting on the comments about it.
To be fair, I read the first 20 or so chapters back in June and early July over
at Stories Online.
<snip>
Denny does a fine job of addressing many of the things you bring up here, so
I'll defer to his post instead of repeating.
<snip for bandwidth>
to
comment on portions of the story that weren't even in the chapter that
everyone could read. Suggesting that I had written another 360k of text and
tried to disguise it since it clearly went nowhere without this story, which
began fully four years after it began. It doesn't even appear in NanoVirus
until chapter twelve.
You bring up a very interesting point here. The chapter of NanoVirus that you
sent to the Fish Tank is the very first chapter in a story that is now (iirce)
well over 30 chapters long. I'm guessing that most (if not all) of the readers
of ASSD and the FT were aware that NanoVirus is an extremely long and extremely
popular story already, and because we know that there's another 30+ chapters,
there's no way to honestly respond to this as though it were a complete
story. I'm sure that many of the FT readers/responders had already read quite
a bit of NV - especially with it's June SC win and (at the time) it's status as
a July finalist (if I've got my timing correct, it hadn't been announced as the
July winner until after most of the responses had been made). Additionally, in
your responses to the comments, you bring up that many of the concerns and
questions were addressed in later chapters. Given that you've got this story
out there, I think it's perfectly reasonable for readers to take it as part of
a whole. If they're aware of the rest of the story, then their comments (such
as Gary's suggestion about the 'Red' story) are possibly even more applicable.
That's just the point. The timeline does make sense, but since you have seen
both Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet complain about it, and since you
already know Gary Jordan, and Garys Muses Sockpuppet, and since I called his
hand on it, and since you were too tired to bother with me until I did, you
automatically assume that Gary is right and that I'm wrong,
No, there wasn't any right or wrong implied in my comments, and I'm sorry if
you inferred that I was calling you "wrong." What I was pointing out was
simply that MANY of the responses involved the aliens. Gary wasn't the only
person who commented about either the science in the "science fiction" or about
the aliens and their part. As authors our stories make perfect sense - to US.
Of course they do, we wrote them. We know what we intended. We know what we
were trying to convey. Part of the point of projects like the Fish Tank is to
ensure that we've painted our vision in clear strokes. Otherwise, you need a
proofer to catch typos, not a workshop to discuss plot elements.
And, the "too tired to bother with me" is just whiny. One thing about being in
the Tank is that you can't expect everyone to respond to every story. We all
respond when we can and when we're so inclined. I'm sure that most writers
would rather have 5 thought-out, detailed responses, than a dozen 4-sentence
replies.
And how do you know this? Karen is the only woman that is described in the
chapter that I submitted to the "Fish Tank". Sexual preferences aren't
discussed in it. Bisexuality is not mentioned. Did you break out of your
justifiable fatigue and go read the other 1400k of the story so you could
make your own decision?
Again, you assume that the only place anyone has read your story is when it was
first posted to the Fish Tank. NV has been around for longer than the week
it's appeared here.
Or did you take Gary Jordan's and Garys Muses
Sockpuppet's judgment for your own. I guess when you read it you also didn't
notice that it just might have been poking fun at itself and at most stories
like it without putting in the non-existent parody code that has become all
the rage lately. But of course I couldn't be good enough to do something
like that could I. After all I didn't even know that Gary Jordan and Garys
Muses Sockpuppet were one and the same. I was so stupid that I thought you
weren't suppoesed to repeat the comments you had just finished making
yourself. I'm obviously too stupid to even be posting on ASSD since Gary and
his Muses Sockpuppet don't approve.
I am sorry that you took it that way. I don't see anywhere where anyone has
called you stupid or has shown you any disrespect anywhere in ASSD. There have
been several stories posted to the tank by first time ASSD'ers. You're not an
outsider, you're not exactly a brandnewcomer to ASSD. You've been
participating in threads, and you've been treated just like anyone else in the
Tank, and you've been afforded the same respect as any other ASSD participant.
Your story was read (your entire story in many instances, not just this
portion), and the responders made honest observations, both on things to keep
and things that, in their opinion, could be improved.
It's been said time and time again that stories are a bit like our children.
It's very hard to accept crticism without taking it personally. Nothing said
by any of the responders was personal towards you. You brought it into that
arena with your comments about subterfuge and lacking balls.
Alexis
(not offended in the least)
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/
http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
Celebrating the Events of ASSD/ASSM/ASSTR:
http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/HIA_Events.htm
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 01:36:50 GMT
"Garys Muses Sockpuppet" <romancesfool@aol.complainer> wrote in message
news:20020815122011.18294.00000538@mb-mk.aol.com ...
This is our second submission for this week. It is the first chapter of
an
already successful story on StoriesOnline. It's been the recipient of a
Silver Clitoride. But the author would like us to take a look and give
him
our opinions. It is 6,194 words in length. FishTank Guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive suggestions
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
<large snip for clarity>
Des, please forgive me for using this method to make more than my share of
comments in the tank. I just hadda doit.
1 : deception by artifice or stratagem in order to conceal, escape, or evade
2 : a deceptive device or stratagem
Which was all completely needless. I asked to be in the "Fish Tank" for
comments, constructive or otherwise.
I will admit I didn't expect to be the butt of a private joke, which was
plainly apparent to everyone else.
Thank you again for taking your time to explain this all to me.
cmsix
"Alexis Siefert" <alexisinalaska@aol.communicate> wrote in message
news:20020818172012.11247.00000059@mb-df.aol.com ...
In article <5BL79.10287$I6.874286@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"cmsix"
<cmsix@hotmail.com> writes:
Thank your for taking your time to read this chapter of NanoVirus and for
commenting on it and commenting on the comments about it.
To be fair, I read the first 20 or so chapters back in June and early July
over
at Stories Online.
<snip>
Denny does a fine job of addressing many of the things you bring up here,
so
I'll defer to his post instead of repeating.
<snip for bandwidth>
to
comment on portions of the story that weren't even in the chapter that
everyone could read. Suggesting that I had written another 360k of text
and
tried to disguise it since it clearly went nowhere without this story,
which
began fully four years after it began. It doesn't even appear in
NanoVirus
until chapter twelve.
You bring up a very interesting point here. The chapter of NanoVirus that
you
sent to the Fish Tank is the very first chapter in a story that is now
(iirce)
well over 30 chapters long. I'm guessing that most (if not all) of the
readers
of ASSD and the FT were aware that NanoVirus is an extremely long and
extremely
popular story already, and because we know that there's another 30+
chapters,
there's no way to honestly respond to this as though it were a complete
story. I'm sure that many of the FT readers/responders had already read
quite
a bit of NV - especially with it's June SC win and (at the time) it's
status as
a July finalist (if I've got my timing correct, it hadn't been announced
as the
July winner until after most of the responses had been made).
Additionally, in
your responses to the comments, you bring up that many of the concerns and
questions were addressed in later chapters. Given that you've got this
story
out there, I think it's perfectly reasonable for readers to take it as
part of
a whole. If they're aware of the rest of the story, then their comments
(such
as Gary's suggestion about the 'Red' story) are possibly even more
applicable.
That's just the point. The timeline does make sense, but since you have
seen
both Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet complain about it, and since
you
already know Gary Jordan, and Garys Muses Sockpuppet, and since I called
his
hand on it, and since you were too tired to bother with me until I did,
you
automatically assume that Gary is right and that I'm wrong,
No, there wasn't any right or wrong implied in my comments, and I'm sorry
if
you inferred that I was calling you "wrong." What I was pointing out was
simply that MANY of the responses involved the aliens. Gary wasn't the
only
person who commented about either the science in the "science fiction" or
about
the aliens and their part. As authors our stories make perfect sense - to
US.
Of course they do, we wrote them. We know what we intended. We know what
we
were trying to convey. Part of the point of projects like the Fish Tank
is to
ensure that we've painted our vision in clear strokes. Otherwise, you
need a
proofer to catch typos, not a workshop to discuss plot elements.
And, the "too tired to bother with me" is just whiny. One thing about
being in
the Tank is that you can't expect everyone to respond to every story. We
all
respond when we can and when we're so inclined. I'm sure that most
writers
would rather have 5 thought-out, detailed responses, than a dozen
4-sentence
replies.
And how do you know this? Karen is the only woman that is described in
the
chapter that I submitted to the "Fish Tank". Sexual preferences aren't
discussed in it. Bisexuality is not mentioned. Did you break out of your
justifiable fatigue and go read the other 1400k of the story so you could
make your own decision?
Again, you assume that the only place anyone has read your story is when
it was
first posted to the Fish Tank. NV has been around for longer than the
week
it's appeared here.
Or did you take Gary Jordan's and Garys Muses
Sockpuppet's judgment for your own. I guess when you read it you also
didn't
notice that it just might have been poking fun at itself and at most
stories
like it without putting in the non-existent parody code that has become
all
the rage lately. But of course I couldn't be good enough to do something
like that could I. After all I didn't even know that Gary Jordan and
Garys
Muses Sockpuppet were one and the same. I was so stupid that I thought
you
weren't suppoesed to repeat the comments you had just finished making
yourself. I'm obviously too stupid to even be posting on ASSD since Gary
and
his Muses Sockpuppet don't approve.
I am sorry that you took it that way. I don't see anywhere where anyone
has
called you stupid or has shown you any disrespect anywhere in ASSD. There
have
been several stories posted to the tank by first time ASSD'ers. You're
not an
outsider, you're not exactly a brandnewcomer to ASSD. You've been
participating in threads, and you've been treated just like anyone else in
the
Tank, and you've been afforded the same respect as any other ASSD
participant.
Your story was read (your entire story in many instances, not just this
portion), and the responders made honest observations, both on things to
keep
and things that, in their opinion, could be improved.
It's been said time and time again that stories are a bit like our
children.
It's very hard to accept crticism without taking it personally. Nothing
said
by any of the responders was personal towards you. You brought it into
that
arena with your comments about subterfuge and lacking balls.
Alexis
(not offended in the least)
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/
http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
Celebrating the Events of ASSD/ASSM/ASSTR:
http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/HIA_Events.htm
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:33:19 -0600
On 18 Aug 2002 09:26:08 GMT, alexisinalaska@aol.communicate (Alexis
Siefert) wrote:
In article <SXF79.10302$LO1.802942@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "cmsix"
<cmsix@hotmail.com> writes:
And thank you
for your diligent effort in trying to make it seem as childish and trivial
as possible. I only regret that you resorted to some type of subterfuge to
do it and that you didn't have the balls to post as yourself.
cmsix
Okay. I've not responded in this Tank for a couple of reasons (primarily time
constraints - gads, I hate moving, and summer school started this week, excuse,
excuse, excuse), but I'm going to step in for a moment here. There were some
good things about this story. I happen to like the idea of wiping out 98% of
the population. Where exactly do I pick up the application to be on that
selection committee? I also sort of like the idea of the human race being an
alien-race experiment. It explains one of my cow-workers a bit <g> (doesn't
make me like her any more, but it explains her).
Knowing that there are aliens around and they've made people the way
they are makes a lot of things make sense. Just have to watch out for
the men in black suits, once you know about this part. Oh, sorry, too
late ...
The author has said somewhere earlier in the FT thread that he fully intended
this to be a stroke story. A fantasy. After all, this is alt.SEX.stories.d,
right? Many readers look to assm for the "story" part of that, but more
probably look to it for the Sex part. And, as the author has pointed out, most
of his fans are from Stories Online, not from assm/assd. Lazeez has repeatedly
pointed out that the average SO reader seems to mostly want inc/nc/mc/stroke
stories. I think that perhaps it's important to keep that audience in mind when
responding to this story. This story is geared towards that audience that
reads sex stories solely for the sex. They want trivial stories. That's
what stroke is about. Screw motivation. Screw heavy science. Screw timelines
and details and background and resolution. Those things fog up the mental
images. Screw. Just screw. A lot.
I do think that on ASSM there are lots of fans of such stories too.
ASSD writers are maybe more picky about things, because we think and
talk about writing and writing styles a lot. Plus maybe we read more
things than just sex stories ;-)
First of all, "subterfuge" is a bit strong. Gary's name is on this post. He
could have posted it with his normal e-mail address in the response line, but
he quite often posts from "Muse's Sockpuppet." I can't for the briefest of
moments honestly think that he was trying to trick anyone at all. The "two and
two" guidelines for the Tank (iirc, of course) are suggestions to keep one
person from 'hogging' all of the more obvious suggestions. The points that
Gary was bringing up are very valid. Cmsix does have another story out there
that seems to relate to this one. Gary felt that it would enhance the plot to
this story. So he suggested that it be incorporated. Yes, "Red and Victor"
itself wasn't in the Tank, but Gary was aware of it and made an honest
suggestion.
Well, some things to think about. One, though maybe Cmsix hasn't
seen Gary's "Muse's Sockpuppet" posts before, I've seen it often. It
wasn't a subterfuge as I saw it; in fact, I didn't think of it as
being anything other than Gary posting. People who have multiple
posting names often mess up which one gets used. You don't even see
it on the outgoing post, not in many news apps.
Gary has read the story through, and is a fan. One can be a fan of
a series and still admit that there are plot holes or other problems.
Posting a story to the Fishtank is asking for comments on those
problems.
A SF fan simply can't ignore science and logic issues. So if you
write a science fiction story, you're begging such fans to pick apart
any technical mistakes. Anyone who doesn't think that should hang
around any SF fan discussion groups ;-) I mean, top star writers have
this issue, so why shouldn't some brand new writer face the same
problem?
As I mentioned, and others did, it doesn't kill the story but it
does require you to discount the talk of the aliens. Most of the tale
doesn't revolve around them anyway.
But since their explanation of things is the opening stage of the
story, developed for a few pages (5 or 6), and is, I'd guess, intended
to be taken seriously, doesn't it make sense to try to make the
situation very clear?
One note is that a SF fan knows what NanoVirus means in science
fiction terms, and if the actual agent is something else, it is
confusing. Not that TV and movie writing gets things very correct
either. But a sensible goal should be to try to lay out the SF tech
and logic as well as you can. If you cannot explain things well,
not explaining them is the safer alternative.
Again, I can ignore the whole intro, and didn't make much technical
comment on it at all in my own response to the story. I felt that the
story flow (ignoring science issues) would work better with
interleaving alien discussion between scenes in the Earthly tale, but
I was willing to accept that the aliens had really strange behavior
and logic (or illogic).
We've seen illogical aliens in SF all the time, esp. on TV. As the
aliens in NanoVirus are only a plot device to set up the sex
situations, and aren't a big chunk of the story, if you read on any
issues with them fade away.
But they make up a third of this first part of the story. That
makes them a big deal to the reader.
Cmsix has spent quite a bit of this thread "explaining" the aliens. The
readers of the Tank aren't idiots. If it needs that much explaining, then
perhaps explaining it to readers won't hurt. Who knows, it might even pick up
a few extra readers. Those people who said to themselves, "the timelines here
are distracting and don't make sense," might stay and read more if it DOES make
sense.
One thing is that if the aliens seem stupid or incompetent or
illogical, the reader may decide that reading on is pointless. Good
aliens should inspire some other response than laughter, unless you're
going for the humorous sorts (like the Martians in "Spaced Invaders,"
who invade Earth by mistake ... and get into a LOT of trouble).
Now, let me see if I understand this correctly. This story (as I've read it so
far) involves an alien civilization which has decided that the earth's
population no longer merits continued existence. So they introduce a 'virus'
to wipe out 98% of the population, leaving a male to female ratio of 1:4 and
keeping only the females who have huge breasts, tight pussies, softly rounded
hips (because, of course, those are the only ones who are "robustly healthy"),
and are undeniably, unbearably sexually attracted to the men (well, to Jack at
least) left on earth, regardless of the looks or personality or intelligence or
conversational skills that those men possess. None of these women look at the
remaining men and say, "hmmm, no. I'll just stick with the women, TYVM."
They're all bisexual, right? ALL of them. And the few holdouts are 'converted'
to bisexuality by the sheer force of Jack's sexual abilities. They just hadn't
met the right man, right?
Haven't read the rest of the whole story, but it seems that the
alien magic made Jack capable of doing it like that. As a stroke
story, that can work; (mc) stories often involve that kind of
overwhelming personality and sexual ability.
There are also a certain percentage of men which, even presented
with dozens of females, would have no desire for them whatsoever.
Again, not having read the story I don't know if any of those appear
either. Maybe the NV killed off everyone with no interest in
reproductive sex?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Mat Twassel
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 15 Aug 2002 17:52:50 GMT
Suggestions:
1. Fix the tags. Most of them could be dropped. For the ETs consider a
play-style format:
Ergit: I assume that if no progress has been made ...
Inglan: That has usually been our policy; however, ...
2.The POV switch in the On Earth section is really jarring. I don't think you
need the introductory section at all. Just start out with Jack Parson's telling
us his side of things.
What works:
1. Good hook. But I wonder if we need the ET section at all. Really hard to
say without knowing what is planned down the line. Is there going to be direct
interaction between Jack and the ETs?
2. Good sex scene. I did find the getting there a little wordy and sometimes
confusing. I can't say any of it seemed ultra-real, and that might matter in
the long run. But it was fun.
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 01:14:41 GMT
Thank you for taking the time to read this chapter of NanoVirus and for
commenting on it. I know that it is sometimes boring to read other peoples
work, especially if it might not normally appeal to you. Your time and
comments are appreciated.
cmsic
"mat twassel" <mmtwassel@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020815135250.20532.00000527@mb-fa.aol.com ...
Suggestions:
1. Fix the tags. Most of them could be dropped. For the ETs consider a
play-style format:
Ergit: I assume that if no progress has been made ...
Inglan: That has usually been our policy; however, ...
I don't understand this. Are you suggesting I drop the use of normal dialog
punctuation?
2.The POV switch in the On Earth section is really jarring. I don't think
you
need the introductory section at all. Just start out with Jack Parson's
telling
us his side of things.
I'm sorry but I just don't believe that will work at all. Besides I had fun
with Ergit and Inglan and enjoyment is all I get out of this.
What works:
1. Good hook. But I wonder if we need the ET section at all. Really hard
to
say without knowing what is planned down the line. Is there going to be
direct
interaction between Jack and the ETs?
Jack discovers that the aliens are the cause of the sickness in chapter
twenty-nine.
But there's no direct interaction yet. I don't use an outline or plan so I
don't
know if or when they will come into direct contact. Considering what
happened on this visit, I doubt he will do anything to invite them back.
2. Good sex scene. I did find the getting there a little wordy and
sometimes
confusing. I can't say any of it seemed ultra-real, and that might matter
in
the long run. But it was fun.
Hey, if it slides by without someone cursing me for it I take it as a good
sign.
Thanks again for reading it and commenting.
cmsix
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Mat Twassel
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 18 Aug 2002 03:19:36 GMT
cmsix writes:
1. Fix the tags. Most of them could be dropped. For the ETs consider a
play-style format:
Ergit: I assume that if no progress has been made ...
Inglan: That has usually been our policy; however, ...
I don't understand this. Are you suggesting I drop the use of normal dialog
punctuation?
Yes and no. You should probably learn what is normal for dialog punctuation.
"Blah, blah, blah," he said. Not: "Blah, blah, blah." He said. But my
suggestion had more to do with making the tags painless to read. Don't
identify the speaker with a tag if the identity of the speaker is obvious.
Resist the urge to use verbs beyond "said" and "asked." Resist the urge to use
adverbs to indicate how something is said. Of course there are exceptions. In
the case of the ETs, I also had problems picturing them. Do they speak English?
It seemed to me that using the play format might make them more ET-like. Are we
supposed to think of them as people, or what?
2.The POV switch in the On Earth section is really jarring. I don't think
you
need the introductory section at all. Just start out with Jack Parson's
telling
us his side of things.
I'm sorry but I just don't believe that will work at all. Besides I had fun
with Ergit and Inglan and enjoyment is all I get out of this.
That's good. If you're having fun, that's the main thing. I didn't find much
entertainment value in Ergit and Inglan as characters, and having heard that
these ETs don't reappear for dozens of chapters, I believe more than ever that
you should bury them. Instead, do more to show the effects of their plot. That
way the reader is guessing along with the hero. If you do it right, you should
be able to reveal everything that's important without incurring the wrath of
all the sci-fi experts who have pointed out the myriad of failures in this
opening. In other words, I think it has more potential as a mystery/adventure
than as a simple adventure.
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Tenyari
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:11:54 GMT
On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:10:59 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com>
wrote:
This is our second submission for this week. It is the first chapter of an
already successful story on StoriesOnline. It's been the recipient of a
Silver Clitoride. But the author would like us to take a look and give him
our opinions. It is 6,194 words in length. FishTank Guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive suggestions
You're detailed, which is good.
The core idea is interesting.
The character gets a lot of attention in terms of personality and
background.
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
The dialog has too many monologs. Shorten it and make it more natural.
Most of us don't give speeches when we talk. We say brief bursts,
change our subject midway through, and so on.
"I saw you turn down eight out of ten guys before me."
"Really?" she smiled back "You were watching that long?"
[We'll ignore how creepy it might be for a guy to do that ... :) ]
"Nancy said she'd seen you leave with a guy maybe three times in the
last year. Hey, nice dress ..."
etc ...
If what you have to say takes more than 2 seconds, there's a good
chance something will break it apart unless you're in front of a
podium.
The science and the aliens have real problems with believability. And
were somewhat jarring. The sort of thing that drops you out of the
story at times. I suggest reading some fiction in the post cyberpunk
genre to get a feel for nano technology and societies that use it.
Your stories features aliens who have gone way beyond that, if they've
been around so long and travel the stars, so they should be beyond it.
In this chapter the integration of the two sections was not very
smooth. I was reading this long thing about aliens and then suddenly
I'm in a whole different movie. The POV switch in the second part
exasperated this.
I've used short scenes of other moments in my own work. You have to
keep it short. A few paragraphs at most. Some of mine may stretch the
limit on this as well. Sometimes you can put in a bleed-in between the
two points.
I wonder what effect the timing of posting this to fish tank had on
the Silver Clitoride results.
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ).
If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it was about a girl and a half.
From: Mat Twassel
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 15 Aug 2002 21:30:12 GMT
Tenyari writes:
The science and the aliens have real problems with believability.
Could be. Actually I didn't question it. Or to put it another way, I found
that section as credible as the sex section. But follow my suggestion (drop the
aliens to the background) and you solve all the science credibility problems!
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 01:42:15 GMT
tenyari
Thanks for reading this chapter and for takint your time to comment on it.
"tenyari" <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g9unluglb45cm2ijee7ao30h240l2spfcn@4ax.com ...
1) 2 positive suggestions
You're detailed, which is good.
The core idea is interesting.
The character gets a lot of attention in terms of personality and
background.
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
The dialog has too many monologs. Shorten it and make it more natural.
Most of us don't give speeches when we talk. We say brief bursts,
change our subject midway through, and so on.
"I saw you turn down eight out of ten guys before me."
"Really?" she smiled back "You were watching that long?"
[We'll ignore how creepy it might be for a guy to do that ... :) ]
I agree it might be creepy but I've seen others doing the same thing. Of
course I've never been guilty.
"Nancy said she'd seen you leave with a guy maybe three times in the
last year. Hey, nice dress ..."
etc ...
If what you have to say takes more than 2 seconds, there's a good
chance something will break it apart unless you're in front of a
podium.
I do get long winded and I will try to shorten my speeches.
The science and the aliens have real problems with believability. And
were somewhat jarring. The sort of thing that drops you out of the
story at times.
They were intended to be jarring.
I suggest reading some fiction in the post cyberpunk
genre to get a feel for nano technology and societies that use it.
Your stories features aliens who have gone way beyond that, if they've
been around so long and travel the stars, so they should be beyond it.
Nano Technology isn't an important part of the story. Nano was just a
buzzword I used in the title and with the aliens. Details of the technology
aren't important to the first 1400k of the text.
In this chapter the integration of the two sections was not very
smooth. I was reading this long thing about aliens and then suddenly
I'm in a whole different movie. The POV switch in the second part
exasperated this.
The change of scene was intended to be abrupt. I am sorry that you were
exasperated. I will be looking at the transition to see if I can smooth it
out a little.
I've used short scenes of other moments in my own work. You have to
keep it short. A few paragraphs at most. Some of mine may stretch the
limit on this as well. Sometimes you can put in a bleed-in between the
two points.
I wonder what effect the timing of posting this to fish tank had on
the Silver Clitoride results.
I had nothing to do with the timing of the chapter's appearance in the "Fish
Tank". If you think that this timing gave me some kind of advantage I am
sure you are wrong. Unless Gary tells us we'll never know; but I'm willing
to bet that I didn't get a single vote from anyone that even knows that the
"Fish Tank" or ASSD exist.
-
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ).
If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it
was about a girl and a half.
Thank you again for reading this chapter of NanoVirus and for suggesting
ways that I can make it better.
cmsix
From: Desdmona
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:20:05 -0400
"tenyari" <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g9unluglb45cm2ijee7ao30h240l2spfcn@4ax.com ...
I wonder what effect the timing of posting this to fish tank had on
the Silver Clitoride results.
Tenyari~
I thought you'd like to know that cmsix submitted his first chapter to the
FishTank awhile ago, and had to wait in line just as most authors are having
to do of late.
Personally, I see a natural progression of events where he discovered ASSD,
discovered the FishTank, and then wanted to submit. He did so. And I added
him to the list.
It's a bit unfair to the FishTank and to cmsix to assume anything else.
Des
From: Tenyari
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:23:02 GMT
On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:20:05 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com>
wrote:
"tenyari" <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g9unluglb45cm2ijee7ao30h240l2spfcn@4ax.com ...
I wonder what effect the timing of posting this to fish tank had on
the Silver Clitoride results.
I thought you'd like to know that cmsix submitted his first chapter to the
FishTank awhile ago, and had to wait in line just as most authors are having
to do of late.
It's a bit unfair to the FishTank and to cmsix to assume anything else.
I don't think so.
The timing may have been accidental, but the posting of the story to
fishtank in the last week of voting for the Clitorides had to have an
effect.
It took my three days to post a response to Fishtank because it took
that long to find anything good to say about the first chapter.
No I did not expect my story to win the Clitorides as I did no
promotion and it was my first writing effort, but this was the last
one I would expect to win it given the other entries.
Given some of the other critiques, I doubt I'm alone in that.
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ).
If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it was about a girl and a half.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:29:08 GMT
tenyari:
In the first place I can see why you might think it suspicious. It did show
up just before the voting was closed.
On the other hand it showed up in ASSD. No part of NanoVirus has ever been
posted to ASSM. Practically none of my normal readers even know about ASSD.
I just don't understand how you think that this could have been an advantage
for me.
No one that saw it or read it on ASSD in the Fish Tank voted for it. The
story has around 3200 regular readers every week. They didn't know it was in
the Fish Tank. They don't even know what the "Fish Tank" is. They are the
ones that voted for it, just like they did the month before when it wasn't
in the fish tank. I'm just guessing here but assume I didn't get as many
votes this months as I did last month since the story is getting a little
long in the tooth.
Chapter 1 not only got a well deserved chewing up in the Fish Tank, it was
the Chapter that got the least interest from the readers. Frankly I don't
know how the rest of the story survived the first chapter. The first chapter
only gained a StoriesOnline score of 7.8 or thereabouts. The score and the
readership only picked up after later chapters.
I'm not trying to say that my readers don't give me an advantage, they do.
I'm just trying to tell you that it doesn't have anything to do with the
Fish Tank or ASSD.
I hope you understand that the Silver Clitorides are awarded by popular
vote. I think that I at least made my thoughts on popular voting plain in
NanoVirus since I had the virus kill all those elected that way.
cmsix
"tenyari" <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:t5c7muk68tk8kcdn07o3kfdtnvrpjlfi14@4ax.com ...
On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:20:05 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com>
wrote:
"tenyari" <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g9unluglb45cm2ijee7ao30h240l2spfcn@4ax.com ...
I wonder what effect the timing of posting this to fish tank had on
the Silver Clitoride results.
I thought you'd like to know that cmsix submitted his first chapter to
the
FishTank awhile ago, and had to wait in line just as most authors are
having
to do of late.
It's a bit unfair to the FishTank and to cmsix to assume anything else.
I don't think so.
The timing may have been accidental, but the posting of the story to
fishtank in the last week of voting for the Clitorides had to have an
effect.
It took my three days to post a response to Fishtank because it took
that long to find anything good to say about the first chapter.
No I did not expect my story to win the Clitorides as I did no
promotion and it was my first writing effort, but this was the last
one I would expect to win it given the other entries.
Given some of the other critiques, I doubt I'm alone in that.
-
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ).
If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it
was about a girl and a half.
From: Iconoclast
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 05:26:10 GMT
tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote on Wed 21 Aug 2002
08:23:02a
The timing may have been accidental, but the posting of the
story to fishtank in the last week of voting for the
Clitorides had to have an effect.
I think cmix responded to that, and I believe him, that
storiesonline folks don't use ASSTR much and even less go to ASSD.
It took my three days to post a response to Fishtank because
it took that long to find anything good to say about the first
chapter.
I wouldn't have bothered. It was a long story for the Fish Tank,
and I know either from the story codes or from reading the first
few paragraphs whether I want to comment on something, if I have
the time.
No I did not expect my story to win the Clitorides as I did no
promotion and it was my first writing effort, but this was the
last one I would expect to win it given the other entries.
Why? Do you think it was worse than all of the others? You are
young, so I don't blame you for reading the first part and thinking
it was crud. I persevered because I recognized a parody in it. (at
least I thought I did.) Many, if not all, of the science fiction
stories from the thirties and early forties had that kind of
stilted dialogue and style, even the so-called greats like Olaf
Stapledon and E.E.(Doc) Smith. In fact, in its social philosophy it
had much of the Stapledon style (though not the ideas).
Given some of the other critiques, I doubt I'm alone in that.
Not alone, but certainly in the minority, as evidenced by the
results. Public popularity certainly does not mean "goodness" or
quality, but it does mean popularity among those who vote with
their hard-earned money to buy and read books they enjoy. But then,
critical literary acclaim does not mean quality either. Look at the
Nobel prizes for literature for the last 100 years. Only a few of
the writers who won the Nobel had any kind of popularity with the
general public. And, ipso facto, they lost in the big picture. They
failed to communicate and arouse emotion in the great unwashed, and
so their place in history is a prize award rather than continuing
relevance.
Iconoclast
From: Tenyari
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:19:45 GMT
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 05:26:10 GMT, Iconoclast
<kreisthornNOSPAM@shaw.caNADA> wrote:
tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote on Wed 21 Aug 2002
No I did not expect my story to win the Clitorides as I did no
promotion and it was my first writing effort, but this was the
last one I would expect to win it given the other entries.
Why? Do you think it was worse than all of the others? You are
young, so I don't blame you for reading the first part and thinking
I'm young? How young am I and what gave you this impression. I'd wager
I have more years on me than 50-70% of the people here.
I'm a new writer here, but that != young.
it was crud. I persevered because I recognized a parody in it. (at
least I thought I did.) Many, if not all, of the science fiction
I persevered through the chapter put in FT, and had real trouble
finding anything of merit. The whole chapter needs a rewrite and the
reasons why have been well addressed here.
Given some of the other critiques, I doubt I'm alone in that.
Not alone, but certainly in the minority, as evidenced by the
results. Public popularity certainly does not mean "goodness" or
True. Daniele Steele and Steven King (spelling unsure on both names)
are among the top selling authors in modern 'literature'. But are they
any good?
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ).
If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it was about a girl and a half.
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 02:26:28 -0700
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:19:45 GMT, tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Not alone, but certainly in the minority, as evidenced by the
results. Public popularity certainly does not mean "goodness" or
True. Daniele Steele and Steven King (spelling unsure on both names)
two ells in her first name, otherwise right on.
are among the top selling authors in modern 'literature'. But are they
any good?
Can't speak to DS; King can write, and some of his stuff is quite
well-written. I still think well of Carrie; I do believe that some
of SK's later stuff was written to formula. (bleahhhh)
NB: I'm often not at all fond of "literary" fiction. I like reading
stories that are well-told.
From: Altan
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 22 Aug 2002 12:06:13 -0700
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:23:12 GMT, tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message <o40amuo25g4vcm0r6ss3h5q5pk6dk6q073@4ax.com>:
Yes and I still offer to withdraw if you think it is unfair.
I think it is unfair. Please withdraw.
Are you saying that it's unfair for authors to put a link to
the award site into one of their stories before the vote has
ended? I believe that this has been done before, you know,
although not by me.
I feel it is, but I have stronger ethics than most people.
Huh? I know it's none of my business, but ... with a popular election,
isn't trying to get votes the whole idea?
The way I personally see it, every author is free to put up links to
the award site. If they draw people to the site, specially if some of
these start reading some of the other stories, all the better for all
of us. We want people to read our work, don't we?
Just my 2c. worth ...
A.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:00:37 -0600
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:19:45 GMT, tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 05:26:10 GMT, Iconoclast
<kreisthornNOSPAM@shaw.caNADA> wrote:
tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote on Wed 21 Aug 2002
Given some of the other critiques, I doubt I'm alone in that.
Not alone, but certainly in the minority, as evidenced by the
results. Public popularity certainly does not mean "goodness" or
True. Daniele Steele and Steven King (spelling unsure on both names)
are among the top selling authors in modern 'literature'. But are they
any good?
Yes. There are better writers, but being able to tell a story with
style and creativity and, for the most part, logical consistency,
makes them good.
Both also tend to pander to "formula" material, intended to please
the mainstream audience. King is somewhat repetitive in themes.
But some writers have no consistency, no good logic, lots of plot
holes, and serious issues with continuity in editing.
Movie scripts have even more problems in that regard. Novels based
on movies can try to fix those up, but the actual story writing depth
in movie scripts tends to be way worse than in successful print
novels.
A story can survive a lot of technical weaknesses. But one of the
expectations of becoming a successful writer is that you'll learn to
overcome them. The fact that a lot of older fiction shows such
problems doesn't mean you shouldn't try to avoid it. Modern writing
technology makes it easier to edit and revise, and the net result is
that you need not be stuck with a story, in print, which has major but
fixable flaws.
Same on the net.
My order for posting tends to be usenet, then web. I may revise it
a few times on the website, then repost the revision later on usenet.
So, even if a story was posted with rough edges, it can get fixed up.
Or you can just learn from your mistakes and move on, doing new
stories without repeating them.
NanoVirus's "mistakes" in the first chapter aren't enough to kill
interest in the rest. A weak start happens in a lot of novels, and
readers can sometimes go past what they don't like, finding the rest
to their taste. The whole thing is long enough that a weak beginning
doesn't make the entire tale weak.
Still, science fiction writing has evolved over the decades (well,
centuries now), and the "modern" style tends to be more demanding on
technical issues and logic. Pop "movie" scifi is often bad at that,
but print stuff tends to be fairly good at being more than just "space
opera." Even in those stories which are intended just as fluff and
fun, self-consistency in the science background is sort of a given.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 01:43:20 GMT
Desdmona said:
Personally, I see a natural progression of events where he discovered
ASSD,
discovered the FishTank, and then wanted to submit. He did so. And I added
him to the list.
I don't want to contradict you but you have Wiseguy to blame for my interest
in the "Fish Tank" and your own rules to blame for my presence in ASSD.
I visited Wiseguy's site seeking more of his excellent work. There are two
other sites mentioned at the top of his site as places that also contained
excellent work. I visited both the other sites and on one of the three
sites, I can't remember which now, I saw mention of a story being in the
"Fish Tank" and I became interested. Naturally I had to visit ASSD to
comment on two other stories in the "Fish Tank" before mine was given its
dunking.
I won't mention the other two guilty parties by name, but their initials are
Dryad and artie.
cmsix
I never use ;) or <g> or other such. If anything I say makes you mad I can
assure you that one of the above should probably have been near it.
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message
news:um235vl170b5e2@news.supernews.com ...
"tenyari" <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g9unluglb45cm2ijee7ao30h240l2spfcn@4ax.com ...
I wonder what effect the timing of posting this to fish tank had on
the Silver Clitoride results.
Tenyari~
I thought you'd like to know that cmsix submitted his first chapter to the
FishTank awhile ago, and had to wait in line just as most authors are
having
to do of late.
Personally, I see a natural progression of events where he discovered
ASSD,
discovered the FishTank, and then wanted to submit. He did so. And I added
him to the list.
It's a bit unfair to the FishTank and to cmsix to assume anything else.
Des
From: Shon Richards
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:09:44 GMT
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message
news:ulfdn4e7o5k74@news.supernews.com ...
*******************************************
NanoVirus ( MF oral)
By cmsix
cmsix@hotmail.com
Negatives-
"All political decision makers, down to the lowliest, will be terminated
and
also all members of all militaries and all policing personnel. All
religious
leaders and religious teachers will be terminated.
Hmm. Are these aliens or liberal arts students? Seriously, that kind of
blanket classification just cracked me up. All politicians are bad. All
religous leaders are bad. Of course they are.
Negative two-
Parsons, Jack Parsons. He's not really much of a character as he is a
male-fantasy vehicle. He's rich. He's handsome. He's smart. Oh, and he
like guns. Duke Nukem has more personality.
Positives-
I always like "The Stand" as a sexual fantasy. Wipe out the world and
watch the sex fly. Its been too long since Al Steiner's Aftermath.
Postive two-
I don't usually read sci-fi sex stories because writers can get hung up
on the science and not the sex. That isn't a problem here. At first the
scenes with the aliens get slow, but then you remember that this is first
and for most a sex story.
Shon Richards
A good portion of my stories can be found at my never-finished website at
http://www.asstr.org/~ShonRichards/
All of them can be found through ftp at
http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/ShonRichards/
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:34:08 GMT
Shon
Thank your for reading and commenting on NanoVirus. I appreciate the effort.
"Shon" <shonrichardshsd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cpX69.4706$LO1.390171@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
Negatives-
"All political decision makers, down to the lowliest, will be terminated
and
also all members of all militaries and all policing personnel. All
religious
leaders and religious teachers will be terminated.
Hmm. Are these aliens or liberal arts students? Seriously, that kind
of
blanket classification just cracked me up. All politicians are bad. All
religous leaders are bad. Of course they are.
I can see that I didn't make this part of the story clear enough. Good or
bad isn't a consideration at all. The politicians, religious leaders,
military and police aren't judged on merit. They are the civilization and
they are terminated to allow for a new one. The civilization is not
progressing toward the alien's goal, which is out of system exploration
leading to joining the aliens.
Negative two-
Parsons, Jack Parsons. He's not really much of a character as he is a
male-fantasy vehicle. He's rich. He's handsome. He's smart. Oh, and he
like guns. Duke Nukem has more personality.
If everyone was perfect in the first chapter, where would I have to go with
the story. To me, character development requires a starting point and a
progression from there.
Positives-
I always like "The Stand" as a sexual fantasy. Wipe out the world and
watch the sex fly. Its been too long since Al Steiner's Aftermath.
My first and all time favorite exposure to end of world scenarios was "Alas,
Babylon" by Pat Frank first published in 1959. I also liked the stand but
always hated all the dead bodies lying around and the damned cars abandoned
in the road. I made sure Jack wouldn't have those problems or any nasty
radiation fouling up the works. I got so tired of Jessica and Dale that I
decided to let Jack kill anyone that even seemed to act like them on first
encounter.
Postive two-
I don't usually read sci-fi sex stories because writers can get hung
up
on the science and not the sex. That isn't a problem here. At first the
scenes with the aliens get slow, but then you remember that this is first
and for most a sex story.
-
Shon Richards
A good portion of my stories can be found at my never-finished website at
http://www.asstr.org/~ShonRichards/
All of them can be found through ftp at
http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/ShonRichards/
Thanks again for reading this chapter of NanoVirus and for taking your time
to comment on it and help me improve it.
cmsix
From: Desdmona
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:04:30 -0400
NanoVirus ( MF oral)
By cmsix
cmsix@hotmail.com
cmsix~
I'm not a sci-fi fan. In fact, if it weren't for this being in the FT, I
would have stopped reading after the first few paragraphs. That's more a
statement of my preferences than this story. But, I do think the aliens
sound preachy. I could almost feel myself dozing like I was sitting in a
church pew listening to a monotoned sermon.(Oops, I better listen, he's
going to be dead soon) I realize that there needs to be some setup for the
virus, but I think most of the details that Ergit and Inglan discuss could
be introduced a little at a time as someone else has already suggested.
I think my biggest problem with this story is believability. Let's forget
the aliens, because I can almost believe that other life forms exist, but
let's talk about Jack Parsons. He's a cliche. He's the perfect postor boy
for egotism and when the POV shifts to first person, his ego really
stampedes across the page. But the kicker for me with Jack and believability
is he's going to have to do some major changing before I can believe he's
worthy to be in the 2% that survives.
After 9/11 it's hard for me to believe that the entire US prisons are wiped
out, with an estimate of about 5 million people, and Jack grabs his favorite
rifle and goes shooting. Sure, they're criminals, but 5 million people and
he needs to go shoot, and then heads on down to the local bar? Every
millionaire in the world would be glued to their TV if not for humanity
reasons, then at least for monetary ones. That many deaths for unexplained
reasons has to have an affect on the economy.
Of course this is only chapter 1, so I have no way of knowing if Jack
suddenly becomes the good guy, but right now in my way of thinking, he's
just as lowly as any politician, preacher, and a moderate percentage of
those prisoners. Stick in one redeeming quality. Maybe he does something
charitable with some of his money. Maybe he helps little old ladies across
the street, or maybe he secretly teaches karate to teenagers from his old
neighborhood.
On the other hand, aside from the weak description of nice hair, nice skin,
and nice features, Jack's personality is written superbly. He's a good ole'
boy from Texas and he sounds like it! His mannerisms and speech are perfect
for this type of character. Everything is bigger in Texas, including Jack's
wallet, his ego, and his penis. Making him this outrageous works for me.
He's got to be bigger than life to counteract the aliens.
The sex in this story is purely stroke, but it has a spark that most stroke
stories don't have. It's fun, a lot of fun. And in my mind this may be why
this story is so popular.
I'm going to second the opinion about the dialogue. It's full of
mini-speeches. Pare it down a little, but don't lose the colloquialisms,
they're too much fun!
Thanks cmsix for thinking of the FT. I hope this project helps you in the
way you hoped it would.
Des
From: celia batau
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:13:44 -0700
hi Des!
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message
news:ulov4q17p0us6e@news.supernews.com ...
I think my biggest problem with this story is believability. Let's forget
the aliens, because I can almost believe that other life forms exist, but
let's talk about Jack Parsons. He's a cliche. He's the perfect postor boy
for egotism and when the POV shifts to first person, his ego really
stampedes across the page. But the kicker for me with Jack and
believability
is he's going to have to do some major changing before I can believe he's
worthy to be in the 2% that survives.
but think about it. :) two percent left of mild unbothersome pleasant ppl
left and this guy is loosed upon them. :) he could go right to the top of
power for ppl wanting to recreate what they lost, or he could be a plague
that destroys everything he touches. :)
possibilities! possibilities! :)
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
utsukushii hoshi ni sumu
utsukushii hitobito
utsukushikute tooi hoshi no
natsukashii hitobito
itsuka boku o
omoidashite.
-Pizzicato Five
From: Gary Jordan
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 16 Aug 2002 11:24:19 GMT
celia said:
hi Des!
hi, Des! hi celia!
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message
news:ulov4q17p0us6e@news.supernews.com ...
I think my biggest problem with this story is believability. Let's forget
the aliens, because I can almost believe that other life forms exist, but
let's talk about Jack Parsons. He's a cliche. He's the perfect postor boy
for egotism and when the POV shifts to first person, his ego really
stampedes across the page. But the kicker for me with Jack and
believability
is he's going to have to do some major changing before I can believe he's
worthy to be in the 2% that survives.
but think about it. :) two percent left of mild unbothersome pleasant ppl
left and this guy is loosed upon them. :) he could go right to the top of
power for ppl wanting to recreate what they lost, or he could be a plague
that destroys everything he touches. :)
possibilities! possibilities! :)
That's another thing! Although you don't see the other survivors in this
chapter, only two types of males seemed to survive.
Guys like Jack, who (we see later) place the welfare of the group (albeit
consisting at first of himself and many large-breasted, tight-pussied horny
women) ahead of his own welfare.
Guys who are greedy rapists attempting to accumulate power and women by force.
I think the virus had a few flaws in its programming. That's one of the
possibilities.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often."
<I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary
effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon,
Essays </I>
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 05:51:25 GMT
"celia batau" <pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
news:1029474851.378583@news1.bigplanet.com ...
but think about it. :) two percent left of mild unbothersome pleasant ppl
left and this guy is loosed upon them. :) he could go right to the top of
power for ppl wanting to recreate what they lost, or he could be a plague
that destroys everything he touches. :)
possibilities! possibilities! :)
-cb
He might even find some beautiful people living on a beautiful star.
cmsix
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 05:46:15 GMT
Desdmona
Thank you for allowing NanoVirus a dunking in the "Fish Tank". Thank you
even more for taking the time to read this chapter and comment on it. I
understand that it isn't your cup of tea and really appreciate your sharing
your knowledge with me.
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message
news:ulov4q17p0us6e@news.supernews.com ...
NanoVirus ( MF oral)
By cmsix
cmsix@hotmail.com
cmsix~
I'm not a sci-fi fan. In fact, if it weren't for this being in the FT, I
would have stopped reading after the first few paragraphs. That's more a
statement of my preferences than this story. But, I do think the aliens
sound preachy. I could almost feel myself dozing like I was sitting in a
church pew listening to a monotoned sermon.(Oops, I better listen, he's
going to be dead soon) I realize that there needs to be some setup for the
virus, but I think most of the details that Ergit and Inglan discuss could
be introduced a little at a time as someone else has already suggested.
I think my biggest problem with this story is believability. Let's forget
the aliens, because I can almost believe that other life forms exist, but
let's talk about Jack Parsons. He's a cliche. He's the perfect postor boy
for egotism and when the POV shifts to first person, his ego really
stampedes across the page. But the kicker for me with Jack and
believability
is he's going to have to do some major changing before I can believe he's
worthy to be in the 2% that survives.
After 9/11 it's hard for me to believe that the entire US prisons are
wiped
out, with an estimate of about 5 million people, and Jack grabs his
favorite
rifle and goes shooting. Sure, they're criminals, but 5 million people and
he needs to go shoot, and then heads on down to the local bar? Every
millionaire in the world would be glued to their TV if not for humanity
reasons, then at least for monetary ones. That many deaths for unexplained
reasons has to have an affect on the economy.
Thank your for pointing out this mistake on my part.
he was further lucky as he liquidated his hard won stock two months before
the bubble burst in two thousand. He was worth twenty-nine million dollars
and at twenty-seven years old he had already retired
I should have said that he had twenty-nine million dollars in cash in the
bank instead of saying that he was worth twenty-nine million dollars, which
can leave the impression that he might still have worries about the stock
market, even after I pointed out that he had liquidated his stock. I assume
that the boring nature of the opening scene also made you forget that the
drone was to provide a calming effect during the terminations.
Of course this is only chapter 1, so I have no way of knowing if Jack
suddenly becomes the good guy, but right now in my way of thinking, he's
just as lowly as any politician, preacher, and a moderate percentage of
those prisoners. Stick in one redeeming quality. Maybe he does something
charitable with some of his money. Maybe he helps little old ladies across
the street, or maybe he secretly teaches karate to teenagers from his old
neighborhood.
I'll surely have to redo some of the specifics of the selections process.
The aliens are not judging any of the potential survivors on anything but
intelligence and physical robustness. Their deeds are as rags. The
politicians, religious leaders, business leaders, military and police are
not even considered for survival due to their ties to the existing
civilization which the aliens perceive as the main fault. I can tell from
your comments and the comments of others that I didn't do a good job
explaining this.
Jack is shallow and self-aggrandizing here to make it easier to develop him
later.
On the other hand, aside from the weak description of nice hair, nice
skin,
and nice features, Jack's personality is written superbly. He's a good
ole'
boy from Texas and he sounds like it! His mannerisms and speech are
perfect
for this type of character. Everything is bigger in Texas, including
Jack's
wallet, his ego, and his penis. Making him this outrageous works for me.
He's got to be bigger than life to counteract the aliens.
The sex in this story is purely stroke, but it has a spark that most
stroke
stories don't have. It's fun, a lot of fun. And in my mind this may be why
this story is so popular.
I'm going to second the opinion about the dialogue. It's full of
mini-speeches. Pare it down a little, but don't lose the colloquialisms,
they're too much fun!
Thanks cmsix for thinking of the FT. I hope this project helps you in the
way you hoped it would.
Des
Thanks are for you. I can't tell you how much I appreciate this opportunity
for feedback and suggestions.
cmsix
From: Desdmona
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:15:28 -0400
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HwG79.10331$LO1.808195@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
Desdmona
Thank you for allowing NanoVirus a dunking in the "Fish Tank". Thank you
even more for taking the time to read this chapter and comment on it. I
understand that it isn't your cup of tea and really appreciate your
sharing
your knowledge with me.
cmsix~
I'm going to comment on several posts here at once without quoting. I
realize that's against newsgroup etiquette, but I'm so far behind from
traveling that I'm going to break the rules.
Concerning NanoVirus:
Your explanation of the aliens has cleared up quite a bit of my confusion. I
believe I may have gone into the story with the preconceived notion that
when you choose 2% of a population to survive, you choose the 2% that you
want to repopulate. It isn't reasonable that the aliens have no intention
for repopulation, they have to know that even 2% will repopulate.
If a world is bad enough that it doesn't deserve to live, then why would
you leave 2% of the same type of people that add to the badness of that
world? In my mind, Jack Parsons, though he doesn't have politician or
criminal, or preacher on his resume, has the same type of character and can
be grouped with them. But if he's being saved merely because of his physical
appearance, then it changes things. However, if the aliens choose the 2% by
robustness, it now niggles because some of those criminals that were killed
off are in the best physical shape of anybody. So, it's cheating to try and
have it both ways. There needs to be a valid reason for Jack Parsons to be
saved. He needs just one redeeming factor that sets him apart from the
criminals and the politicians and the clergy. Healthy appearance and sexual
prowess aren't unique enough to do the trick.
I think the biggest thing that you might learn in regards to the aliens,
NanoVirus, and your stint in the FT, is that you had to explain and in some
cases, defend nearly everything. Are we as readers just not understanding,
or are you, as the author, not getting the point across clearly? My guess
it's some of both, but only you can decide for yourself how much you care
about people getting what you're trying to convey.
Concerning Respect:
I believe you've misspoke when you say that your story did not receive the
same respect as other stories in the FishTank. There were several
well-thought-out responses by nearly all the same people who respond to
every story in the FishTank. You do a disservice to the people that took the
time to read your submission and comment on it when you make a blanket
statement about respect.
Concerning Subterfuge:
I don't believe for a second that Gary meant his sock-puppet to be some kind
of veiled mystery. My personal belief is he used the sock-puppet, assuming
everyone knew it was him. Obviously, it was a wrong assumption. I also
believe he used the sock-puppet with the idea that sock-puppets break
rules - do and say what they want. The sock-puppet response was detailed and
went way beyond the FT guidelines. In other words, he knew he was going to
break "the rules" of the FT. If there is more reasoning to it beyond this,
then only Gary can answer. And I suggest that you and he discuss this, and
might I further suggest you do it personally through email.
In fairness, that detailed response was about NanoVirus. It pointed out
inconsistencies as he saw them, and made suggestions for improvement. And as
in all suggestions, the author can take them or toss them.
I also would like to add that I hope we've learned our lesson about
sock-puppets, so we can prevent confusion or misunderstandings in the
future.
Concerning Texas Rednecks and Storytelling:
You've got a winner of a story here. It's a fact! All those people who are
following the story aren't necessarily looking for a literary classic.
You've given them what they wanted - a fun story that explores fantasies from
A-Z. Your hard work, time and effort to write it all has been rewarded.
You're right when you say it's not my cup of tea, but who cares? It's
obviously just what the doctor ordered for hundreds of others. The point is,
as writers, we aren't going to like everything that is written, but I can
almost guarantee we all respect honest effort when it comes to writing,
whether it be from a guy with golden writing credentials, or a guy who just
likes to tell stories in his own way.
Concerning my long-windedness:
I've probably left out something, but I'm done for now!
Des
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:12:36 GMT
Desdmona
Thank you again for letting the first chapter of NanoVirus appear in the
"Fish Tank" it has certianly been a learning experience and has pointed out
many things that I need to reconsider about that chapter and about my
attitude in general.
I apologize for my trivial and childish remarks to Garys Muses Sockpuppet
and for the childish and trivial remarks I made to others that commented on
them.
cmsix
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message
news:um2a4f9qik4g9f@news.supernews.com ...
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HwG79.10331$LO1.808195@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
Desdmona
Thank you for allowing NanoVirus a dunking in the "Fish Tank". Thank you
even more for taking the time to read this chapter and comment on it. I
understand that it isn't your cup of tea and really appreciate your
sharing
your knowledge with me.
cmsix~
I'm going to comment on several posts here at once without quoting. I
realize that's against newsgroup etiquette, but I'm so far behind from
traveling that I'm going to break the rules.
Concerning NanoVirus:
Your explanation of the aliens has cleared up quite a bit of my confusion.
I
believe I may have gone into the story with the preconceived notion that
when you choose 2% of a population to survive, you choose the 2% that you
want to repopulate. It isn't reasonable that the aliens have no intention
for repopulation, they have to know that even 2% will repopulate.
If a world is bad enough that it doesn't deserve to live, then why would
you leave 2% of the same type of people that add to the badness of that
world? In my mind, Jack Parsons, though he doesn't have politician or
criminal, or preacher on his resume, has the same type of character and
can
be grouped with them. But if he's being saved merely because of his
physical
appearance, then it changes things. However, if the aliens choose the 2%
by
robustness, it now niggles because some of those criminals that were
killed
off are in the best physical shape of anybody. So, it's cheating to try
and
have it both ways. There needs to be a valid reason for Jack Parsons to be
saved. He needs just one redeeming factor that sets him apart from the
criminals and the politicians and the clergy. Healthy appearance and
sexual
prowess aren't unique enough to do the trick.
I think the biggest thing that you might learn in regards to the aliens,
NanoVirus, and your stint in the FT, is that you had to explain and in
some
cases, defend nearly everything. Are we as readers just not
understanding,
or are you, as the author, not getting the point across clearly? My guess
it's some of both, but only you can decide for yourself how much you care
about people getting what you're trying to convey.
Concerning Respect:
I believe you've misspoke when you say that your story did not receive the
same respect as other stories in the FishTank. There were several
well-thought-out responses by nearly all the same people who respond to
every story in the FishTank. You do a disservice to the people that took
the
time to read your submission and comment on it when you make a blanket
statement about respect.
Concerning Subterfuge:
I don't believe for a second that Gary meant his sock-puppet to be some
kind
of veiled mystery. My personal belief is he used the sock-puppet, assuming
everyone knew it was him. Obviously, it was a wrong assumption. I also
believe he used the sock-puppet with the idea that sock-puppets break
rules - do and say what they want. The sock-puppet response was detailed
and
went way beyond the FT guidelines. In other words, he knew he was going to
break "the rules" of the FT. If there is more reasoning to it beyond
this,
then only Gary can answer. And I suggest that you and he discuss this, and
might I further suggest you do it personally through email.
In fairness, that detailed response was about NanoVirus. It pointed out
inconsistencies as he saw them, and made suggestions for improvement. And
as
in all suggestions, the author can take them or toss them.
I also would like to add that I hope we've learned our lesson about
sock-puppets, so we can prevent confusion or misunderstandings in the
future.
Concerning Texas Rednecks and Storytelling:
You've got a winner of a story here. It's a fact! All those people who are
following the story aren't necessarily looking for a literary classic.
You've given them what they wanted - a fun story that explores fantasies
from
A-Z. Your hard work, time and effort to write it all has been rewarded.
You're right when you say it's not my cup of tea, but who cares? It's
obviously just what the doctor ordered for hundreds of others. The point
is,
as writers, we aren't going to like everything that is written, but I can
almost guarantee we all respect honest effort when it comes to writing,
whether it be from a guy with golden writing credentials, or a guy who
just
likes to tell stories in his own way.
Concerning my long-windedness:
I've probably left out something, but I'm done for now!
Des
From: Gary Jordan
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 20 Aug 2002 05:56:10 GMT
cmsix said:
Desdmona
Thank you again for letting the first chapter of NanoVirus appear in the
"Fish Tank" it has certianly been a learning experience and has pointed out
many things that I need to reconsider about that chapter and about my
attitude in general.
I apologize for my trivial and childish remarks to Garys Muses Sockpuppet
and for the childish and trivial remarks I made to others that commented on
them.
I apologize both to Des and to cmsix. To Des for the (anyone know how to spell
bru-ha-ha?) fracas within the glass walls; to cmsix for the misunderstanding
stirred up by an unfamiliar (to him) screen name.
For the record, there was no disrespect intended. I take my science fiction
seriously, and I tried to make suggestions which would make the aliens seem
less like charicatures. A second post was used because I didn't say everything
in the first, and regretted pushing send.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often."
<I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary
effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon,
Essays </I>
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:39:51 GMT
On 20 Aug 2002 05:56:10 GMT, pjcocoa@aol.come.to.bed (Gary Jordan)
wrote:
(anyone know how to spell
bru-ha-ha?)
brouhaha
From: Gary Jordan
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 20 Aug 2002 19:22:45 GMT
So Denny goes:
On 20 Aug 2002 05:56:10 GMT, pjcocoa@aol.come.to.bed (Gary Jordan)
wrote:
(anyone know how to spell
bru-ha-ha?)
brouhaha
So ... your answer would be yes, then?
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often."
<I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary
effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon,
Essays </I>
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 18 Aug 2002 12:12:22 -0700
In one post, responding I think to Tenyari, cmsix writes:
I had nothing to do with the timing of the chapter's appearance in
the "Fish
Tank". If you think that this timing gave me some kind of advantage I
am
sure you are wrong. Unless Gary tells us we'll never know; but I'm
willing
to bet that I didn't get a single vote from anyone that even knows
that the
"Fish Tank" or ASSD exist.
I think this is a true and telling point, and a good opportunity to
compare different readerships. As many of you know, NanoVirus is
currently the most hightly rated Storiesonline story of all time,
nosing past perennial champ Aftermath for a 9.55 out of 10 rating.
Storiesonline readers didn't need to Fishtank to love NanoVirus.
cmsix, could you tell us about the feedback you've been getting from
Storiesonline? How do their comments compare to the fishtank remarks?
What did they like and dislike?
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 23:57:00 GMT
As has been mentioned elsewhere, the most interesting messages were the ones
that complained about an aspect.
This is my favorite and it was the third message I received.
Great initial idea, but this guy is a complete fucking redneck. The idea
that some advanced interstella civilization would have any interest in
keeping such a complete neanderthal idiot alive is beyond me.
Letting me know that Jack was mainly working out the way I'd hoped he would.
A few remarked about poor grammar and spelling. This caused me to dig around
in Word and ask for help elsewhere, which I got, in making it leave .txt
files alone and still start them using the larger fonts that my
deteriorating vision demands that I use.
One reader pointed out that leaving 5% of the population would have me end
up with far too many people for what I wanted to do and I reposted the first
chapter changing the original 95% to 98% which it uses now. I thanked him
profusely for pointing out that my math was less than I'd hoped for.
One reader from Spain usually requires a little explanation of the details
every chapter or two as he has troubles due to reading it in his second
language.
I gotten several messages cheering Nancy on if she give Jack a particularly
vicious dressing down concerning his equipment, or his latest find of more
women, or just to put him in his place. As an aside, Nancy was a real life
waitress in the very real, at the time I lived there, Broken Spoke. Her
character is nothing like the real life Nancy's was.
Several readers offered to proof read for me but I didn't want the delay it
would cause and I didn't want them to take on more than they realized. I
have posted more than 200k a week before and I didn't think it would be fair
to ask them to take on such a job. One finally began proofreading chapters
after they were posted and sending me the suggestions. I usually just repost
ed the corrected parts a day or so later.
Many readers mail me and say that they just finished re-reading the whole
story. As Jack's count of women climbed eight or ten readers complained that
he wasn't spending any quality time with his original women and ask me to
have him get back to one of their favorites.
Two or three cautioned me about getting into having Jack screw lesbians back
onto the straight and narrow. Frankly these were the hardest scenes for me
to write. I knew that they were complete bullshit and dreaded putting my
female characters through it. They are the kind of scenes many readers and
even some idiots I have known in real life enjoy or fantasize about. I
didn't care about that but thought I couldn't really make fun of the type
story I was writing without including them. I salved my conscious by making
the women's 'change of heart' dependant on their being 'tricked' which is
story speak for referring to Jack's new found mind control abilities.
One of my biggest surprises was when two couples from the west coast emailed
me and saying that they loved the story but pointed out that they trick
didn't really work. I didn't think that kind of thing was even possible.
One reader made several nice comments and asked an question or two but
didn't give a return address so I could answer them. I used the name he
always singed off with, reader30, and killed him in the next chapter. He
didn't write me back for a while.
I often put little notes at the beginning or end of a chapter if I want them
to do something. I shamelessly told them that I was nominated for the June
Silver Clitty and ask them to vote for me. They did. I got a message from
Gary then asking me to remove the Silvervoting address from the note, I
emailed the webmaster and the address was removed. I emailed Gary offering
to withdraw if he felt I'd been unfair, but he didn't suggest it. After I
won the award in June I got one email from another author, who shall remain
nameless until he at least finishes one of his stories, giving me left
handed congratulations and saying that he had lost all respect for me since
I had begged for votes.
I think I told him that I wasn't ashamed to ask for what I wanted or
something to that affect/effect (I've never understood how to use these
correctly). He mailed another cutting remark from a different email address.
I didn't have to beg. I mentioned it and they were glad to do it. Many of
them emailed me, thanking me for letting them know about it and announcing
that they had voted for me.
I didn't even know that I could be eligible for the July award since the
story wasn't new anymore. I did become a finalist again somehow and this
time after conferring with Gary, I left them a note at the end of a chapter
telling that it was time to vote again and asking them to go to the site and
read all the stories.
I watch the statistics at StoriesOnline.net carefully and I noticed that the
score seemed to be dropping about a hundredth of a point with every twelve
to fifteen votes. I assumed that the story was getting old to them and put a
note on a chapter, pointing out my discovery and asking them to let me know
if they wanted me to end it.
Response was alarming. Probably a hindered emails to that message. Many of
them must have exercised their vote at StoriesOnline.net since the score
shot up remarkably. When a story gains as many votes as mine has it takes a
lot of votes to move it up at all. It can move down more easily since a vote
of 1 can do more damage than nine votes of 10.
I'm beginning to fear that few of them realize that Nanovirus is trying to
subtlety poke fun at itself and its peers.
Overall I have found that the readers are much more alert than some of you
seem to think. They aren't writers, this makes them easier for me to
understand, since I'm not a writer either. At best I'm a typing storyteller
and I am a little proud of that.
cmsix
"Vinnie Tesla" <vinnie_tesla@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a1a9f6ba.0208181112.3c269353@posting.google.com ...
In one post, responding I think to Tenyari, cmsix writes:
I had nothing to do with the timing of the chapter's appearance in
the "Fish
Tank". If you think that this timing gave me some kind of advantage I
am
sure you are wrong. Unless Gary tells us we'll never know; but I'm
willing
to bet that I didn't get a single vote from anyone that even knows
that the
"Fish Tank" or ASSD exist.
I think this is a true and telling point, and a good opportunity to
compare different readerships. As many of you know, NanoVirus is
currently the most hightly rated Storiesonline story of all time,
nosing past perennial champ Aftermath for a 9.55 out of 10 rating.
Storiesonline readers didn't need to Fishtank to love NanoVirus.
cmsix, could you tell us about the feedback you've been getting from
Storiesonline? How do their comments compare to the fishtank remarks?
What did they like and dislike?
From: Bradley Stoke
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 19 Aug 2002 12:52:52 -0700
Vinnie
I think you make a very fair point. Whatever one thinks of NanoVirus,
it's certainly achieved levels of success on Stories OnLine and
critical accolades (through the Silver Clitorides) that are pretty
much unprecedented. In fact, I agree with csmsix that submitting the
first chapter to the Fish Tank was unlikely to attract very many more
new readers. Indeed, it risked attracting rather more the criticism of
those, like me, who are quite unlikely to give it very much praise.
csmsix's submission to the Fish Tank was very brave and (at least
initially) his responses to criticism were considered and reasonable.
However, I'm not convinced there is any great difference between the
readers of erotic stories on Stories OnLine, ASSM or, indeed, anywhere
else. I've submitted stories to several places and there is no
discernible difference in the feedback I've received. It's all been
pretty much varied and patternless. The fact that csmsix has gained
the Silver Clitorides award for a second month (and will probably win
the Golden Clitorides) doesn't seem to suggest to me that there is any
reason to deny him the credit of enormous popular success in all the
places his story has been featured or promoted. The only difference I
know of is between the consensus of what constitutes worthwhile sex
fiction that has mostly emerged on ASSD and the view of the average
sex fiction reader.
Let's face it. csmsix is on to a winner. His brand of science fiction
coupled with survivalism in Texas, mixed in with large breasted women
and plenty of pumping heterosexual sex: this is the formula for
success. Perhaps this is the direction we should all go in. Hey! It
works. Don't knock it.
Bradley Stoke
http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:41:03 -0600
On 19 Aug 2002 12:52:52 -0700, bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley
Stoke) wrote:
Vinnie
I think you make a very fair point. Whatever one thinks of NanoVirus,
it's certainly achieved levels of success on Stories OnLine and
critical accolades (through the Silver Clitorides) that are pretty
much unprecedented. In fact, I agree with csmsix that submitting the
first chapter to the Fish Tank was unlikely to attract very many more
new readers. Indeed, it risked attracting rather more the criticism of
those, like me, who are quite unlikely to give it very much praise.
csmsix's submission to the Fish Tank was very brave and (at least
initially) his responses to criticism were considered and reasonable.
The Fish Tank is like that. You're going to get some suggestions to
change big things, and not every story appeals to everyone. That can
make it harder. Plus I think that speculative fiction of any sort
pushes the reader more, makes it more likely to get a critical
interest.
A plain old "just sex" story drama about ordinary people can be fun
too, but you rarely wonder if the big changes in their universe make
sense or not. At least, if they have personalities much like real
people ;-)
However, I'm not convinced there is any great difference between the
readers of erotic stories on Stories OnLine, ASSM or, indeed, anywhere
else. I've submitted stories to several places and there is no
discernible difference in the feedback I've received. It's all been
pretty much varied and patternless. The fact that csmsix has gained
the Silver Clitorides award for a second month (and will probably win
the Golden Clitorides) doesn't seem to suggest to me that there is any
reason to deny him the credit of enormous popular success in all the
places his story has been featured or promoted. The only difference I
know of is between the consensus of what constitutes worthwhile sex
fiction that has mostly emerged on ASSD and the view of the average
sex fiction reader.
I haven't used StoriesOnline though I believe my story site is
linked from it (and some stories as well) with permission. I've
thought about doing it, but - and this reflects time limit as well as
tastes - I find enough stuff to read, usually, off ASSM and ASSTR.
When I do look around, I may use Google or follow story links from
stories. So I'm not a StoriesOnline reader. I am familiar with some
of the stories when they are posted on ASSM, though, and those posted
both places seem to be much the same.
I mean there is a lot of variety in story type and style, content and
such, so it is only natural that it is hard to figure out who the
'average reader' is.
ASSD, though, isn't so likely made up of average readers. We have
an above average interest in good grammar and dislike of spelling
mistakes, I imagine. Writers of stories tend to be more critical of
their own work, and by comparison of others as well. Reading stories
is both for fun, and to help learn how to do it by emulating someone
else.
Let's face it. csmsix is on to a winner. His brand of science fiction
coupled with survivalism in Texas, mixed in with large breasted women
and plenty of pumping heterosexual sex: this is the formula for
success. Perhaps this is the direction we should all go in. Hey! It
works. Don't knock it.
One thing to keep in mind is that "stroke" as a class of sex story
isn't a bad thing. Now maybe, some of us here have no interest in
that kind of story. I just don't see it as being unpopular among the
bulk of readers. And while some sex stories might have more plot than
sex, I think that strong sex is still a big plus for popularity.
I try to mix both. I don't really know if I'm writing "literary"
erotica or porn. Though I suspect it tends towards the erotica side
of things, I dislike leaving out too much sexy bits in the story.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Tenyari
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:32:31 GMT
On 19 Aug 2002 12:52:52 -0700, bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley
Stoke) wrote:
Let's face it. csmsix is on to a winner. His brand of science fiction
coupled with survivalism in Texas, mixed in with large breasted women
and plenty of pumping heterosexual sex: this is the formula for
success. Perhaps this is the direction we should all go in. Hey! It
works. Don't knock it.
I suppose it does. The above formula sure doesn't work as literature
(unless you're Hemingway ;) ), but as porn it's a winning combination.
And despite any authors desires to the contrary, I'd bet 90% of the
readers come to these places looking for verbal porn rather than
erotica or literature.
I agree with you that the readership seems to be similar across sites,
judging from my own feedback and scoring. At least among the types who
like the sort of thing I write. Which is a fairly meaningless
statement. :)
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ).
If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it was about a girl and a half.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:05:21 -0600
On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:32:31 GMT, tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On 19 Aug 2002 12:52:52 -0700, bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley
Stoke) wrote:
Let's face it. csmsix is on to a winner. His brand of science fiction
coupled with survivalism in Texas, mixed in with large breasted women
and plenty of pumping heterosexual sex: this is the formula for
success. Perhaps this is the direction we should all go in. Hey! It
works. Don't knock it.
I suppose it does. The above formula sure doesn't work as literature
(unless you're Hemingway ;) ), but as porn it's a winning combination.
I do think it can be a sort of literature. Doing a "Dallas" fanfic
might well have that sort of material in it (makes me wonder if any of
the Ewing family happens to appear in NanoVirus in any form ;-).
And despite any authors desires to the contrary, I'd bet 90% of the
readers come to these places looking for verbal porn rather than
erotica or literature.
I agree with you that the readership seems to be similar across sites,
judging from my own feedback and scoring. At least among the types who
like the sort of thing I write. Which is a fairly meaningless
statement. :)
Is there something wrong with verbal porn? I do find it hard to mix
both serious romance and hot sex all the time, but in RL I think they
make a dynamite combination. Sex can still be sweet and pure of heart
when it is exciting and edgy. Can't it?
It may be harder to write such combinations. I for one am rather
impressed with cmsix's writing output. I'd like to write so much :-)
And I think that I do a fair amount, but still find it hard to finish
so much story in a reasonable time frame.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Tenyari
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 23:37:22 GMT
On 22 Aug 2002 12:06:13 -0700, altan1@bigfoot.com (Altan) wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:23:12 GMT, tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message <o40amuo25g4vcm0r6ss3h5q5pk6dk6q073@4ax.com>:
Are you saying that it's unfair for authors to put a link to
the award site into one of their stories before the vote has
ended? I believe that this has been done before, you know,
although not by me.
I feel it is, but I have stronger ethics than most people.
Huh? I know it's none of my business, but ... with a popular election,
isn't trying to get votes the whole idea?
Is it a popularity contest or a contest of quality?
I've been under the impression it was about quality, in which case
self promotion to drive up votes is highly unethical.
If it's about popularity, then self promotion should not only be
assumed but encouraged and recommended.
However, we can gauge popularity with hit counts, we don't need the
clitorides for that.
I thought one of the purposes of the awards to highlight stories
others might otherwise miss. In that case, it should definitely not be
about popularity.
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ).
If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it was about a girl and a half.
From: celia batau
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:21:28 -0700
hi Tenyari!
"tenyari" <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qjtamuccngft83gjsaaf3nu5n1ajde6ohv@4ax.com ...
Is it a popularity contest or a contest of quality?
aren't the clitorides mostly to expose ppl to more stories?
However, we can gauge popularity with hit counts, we don't need the
clitorides for that.
we don't think it matters if it's a popularity contest or not, if it gets
ppl to check out the other stories or vote. let the popular story have its
moment. there are also reviews and favorites lists that can focus more on
"quality."
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
All my life I wanted to be someone - I guess I should have been more
specific
-soyflower
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:00:37 -0600
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:19:45 GMT, tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 05:26:10 GMT, Iconoclast
<kreisthornNOSPAM@shaw.caNADA> wrote:
tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote on Wed 21 Aug 2002
Given some of the other critiques, I doubt I'm alone in that.
Not alone, but certainly in the minority, as evidenced by the
results. Public popularity certainly does not mean "goodness" or
True. Daniele Steele and Steven King (spelling unsure on both names)
are among the top selling authors in modern 'literature'. But are they
any good?
Yes. There are better writers, but being able to tell a story with
style and creativity and, for the most part, logical consistency,
makes them good.
Both also tend to pander to "formula" material, intended to please
the mainstream audience. King is somewhat repetitive in themes.
But some writers have no consistency, no good logic, lots of plot
holes, and serious issues with continuity in editing.
Movie scripts have even more problems in that regard. Novels based
on movies can try to fix those up, but the actual story writing depth
in movie scripts tends to be way worse than in successful print
novels.
A story can survive a lot of technical weaknesses. But one of the
expectations of becoming a successful writer is that you'll learn to
overcome them. The fact that a lot of older fiction shows such
problems doesn't mean you shouldn't try to avoid it. Modern writing
technology makes it easier to edit and revise, and the net result is
that you need not be stuck with a story, in print, which has major but
fixable flaws.
Same on the net.
My order for posting tends to be usenet, then web. I may revise it
a few times on the website, then repost the revision later on usenet.
So, even if a story was posted with rough edges, it can get fixed up.
Or you can just learn from your mistakes and move on, doing new
stories without repeating them.
NanoVirus's "mistakes" in the first chapter aren't enough to kill
interest in the rest. A weak start happens in a lot of novels, and
readers can sometimes go past what they don't like, finding the rest
to their taste. The whole thing is long enough that a weak beginning
doesn't make the entire tale weak.
Still, science fiction writing has evolved over the decades (well,
centuries now), and the "modern" style tends to be more demanding on
technical issues and logic. Pop "movie" scifi is often bad at that,
but print stuff tends to be fairly good at being more than just "space
opera." Even in those stories which are intended just as fluff and
fun, self-consistency in the science background is sort of a given.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: celia batau
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:27:48 -0700
hi Jeff!
"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d6542f5$0$1428$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...
Still, science fiction writing has evolved over the decades (well,
centuries now), and the "modern" style tends to be more demanding on
technical issues and logic. Pop "movie" scifi is often bad at that,
but print stuff tends to be fairly good at being more than just "space
opera." Even in those stories which are intended just as fluff and
fun, self-consistency in the science background is sort of a given.
yeah. :) we can get all melty over a girl-and-her-robot love story, but the
robot definitely needs to be based in science. :)
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
Everybody jumping jumping
Everybody dancing now
Ay Mama
Que sabrosa tu estás
-Rabanes
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 01:21:56 -0700
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 23:37:22 GMT, tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
(about the GCs and SCs)
Is it a popularity contest or a contest of quality?
The only answer to that question: yes.
I think that generally the first couple years' worth of GCs, and the
first few months of the SC were primarily voted on a 'quality' basis.
But it was always evident that 'popularity contest' was a likely
course, and that's the way we seem to be going.
Now, I do tend to answer 'yes' to Norm's suggestion that we're taking
ourselves too seriously - but there are a lot of ways the Cs (of
whatever color) could go. There are also other 'awards' and
such - note that Crimson Dragon is doing a 'best of the month' list; I
hope she'll do a 'Year's Best' after she's done the Crimson Reviews
that long. We'll be adding to the "Favourites List" that Rui
maintains - that's not really a list of 'bests' but it certainly is a
good resource.
I like the suggestion made by cmsix and tenyari of awards done by a
judging panel. I like the GCs and SCs as they are - or as they've
been.
I'm not keen on folk plugging their candidacy for awards, but it's not
something we can - or should - ban. I personally wouldn't do it, but
that's an individual matter.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 23:32:15 -0600
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:27:48 -0700, "celia batau"
<pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote:
hi Jeff!
"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d6542f5$0$1428$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...
Still, science fiction writing has evolved over the decades (well,
centuries now), and the "modern" style tends to be more demanding on
technical issues and logic. Pop "movie" scifi is often bad at that,
but print stuff tends to be fairly good at being more than just "space
opera." Even in those stories which are intended just as fluff and
fun, self-consistency in the science background is sort of a given.
yeah. :) we can get all melty over a girl-and-her-robot love story, but the
robot definitely needs to be based in science. :)
Right. Or even if it is magic, we want it to be self-consistent
with no horrible plot holes to hurt our brains. How hard can it be to
make the background consistent?
But I've read stories about the TV/movie producer crowd and its
influence on SciFi TV. Since nobody really cares or understands -
since the producer doesn't - why worry about such trivial things?
A story can go all surreal and let you know that the world is rather
dreamlike and unreal, but if that happens, it better not pretend to be
grounded in solid reality. Action fantasies can be fun, but the whole
suspension of disbelief can be blown by one big gaff.
The girl and her robot (or the boy and his robot) is a kind of
classic sort of love story. The partners who shouldn't get together,
but fall in love anyway, and raise nice questions about just what love
is about. Whether differences in physical elements really make a
difference to that, and such important matters.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 06:45:33 GMT
"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d643d30$0$3569$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...
Sparkle sounds like a fun name. Strippers often seem to pick
interesting names, though their real names are often even more
interesting.
Sparkle was a hit, though I was chastened by a couple for eschewing a
graphic description of her first encounter with Jack. The last three
chapters have been basically sex less and I think the natives are getting a
little restless. I guess it's titillation time in Texas.
cmsix
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:44:26 -0600
On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 06:45:33 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d643d30$0$3569$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...
Sparkle sounds like a fun name. Strippers often seem to pick
interesting names, though their real names are often even more
interesting.
Sparkle was a hit, though I was chastened by a couple for eschewing a
graphic description of her first encounter with Jack. The last three
chapters have been basically sex less and I think the natives are getting a
little restless. I guess it's titillation time in Texas.
Yeah, that can be tricky, trying to stick in some non-sex action in
a sex heavy story. I happen to like it when other things than sex go
on. But it is kind of like when you're on a streak and getting some
every night, and you get transferred and are stuck by yourself.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 01:14:26 GMT
"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d6acb84$0$1427$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...
On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 06:45:33 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d643d30$0$3569$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...
Sparkle sounds like a fun name. Strippers often seem to pick
interesting names, though their real names are often even more
interesting.
Sparkle was a hit, though I was chastened by a couple for eschewing a
graphic description of her first encounter with Jack. The last three
chapters have been basically sex less and I think the natives are getting
a
little restless. I guess it's titillation time in Texas.
Yeah, that can be tricky, trying to stick in some non-sex action in
a sex heavy story. I happen to like it when other things than sex go
on. But it is kind of like when you're on a streak and getting some
every night, and you get transferred and are stuck by yourself.
Well it was the third chapter with no sex. I've done it before but after two
or three some of them get antsy. Most of them email me and want to get the
plot moving and forget the sex. Can't please them all though.
Sometimes I feel like just typing in a note, maybe:
"Not this chapter dear, I have a headache."
Anyway I'll let you know as soon as Sparkle is pregnant. I'll try not to let
her tits swell any more than is absolutely necessary.
cmsix
To be abused, even, by the mistress of one's heart is better than to be
ignored. - Edgar Rice Burroughs
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 01:50:42 -0700
On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:44:26 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com>
wrote:
But it is kind of like when you're on a streak and getting some
every night, and you get transferred and are stuck by yourself.
What is this 'getting some every night' the JZ breezes of?
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:42:09 GMT
<dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:i9fmmu8vkpl04t7hruut0uq491ijp51i29@4ax.com ...
On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:44:26 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com>
wrote:
But it is kind of like when you're on a streak and getting some
every night, and you get transferred and are stuck by yourself.
What is this 'getting some every night' the JZ breezes of?
I've never noticed. He can't be married can he?
cmsix
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:41:20 -0600
On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:42:09 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote:
<dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:i9fmmu8vkpl04t7hruut0uq491ijp51i29@4ax.com ...
On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:44:26 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com>
wrote:
But it is kind of like when you're on a streak and getting some
every night, and you get transferred and are stuck by yourself.
What is this 'getting some every night' the JZ breezes of?
I've never noticed. He can't be married can he?
I thought that was the entire point of getting married? Or at least
for living together. You mean that it isn't?
I guess we're doing something wrong then. Oh well, I never planned
on being "normal". :-)
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Qickless
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 26 Aug 2002 11:44:52 -0700
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:<um2a4f9qik4g9f@news.supernews.com> ...
[..]
You're right when you say it's not my cup of tea, but who cares? It's
obviously just what the doctor ordered for hundreds of others. The point is,
as writers, we aren't going to like everything that is written, but I can
[..]
A point that I have been trying to echo for some time. Stroke erotica
as in "stroke, stroke" erotica is one which appeals to the masses.
Want popularity? Write Fuck, Fuck, Fuck a thousand times and you get
to drink a lot of 10.0 beer. Writing subtle erotica takes a lot more
time(and perhaps more effort) but you get stuck in grade 2 and think
you're a loser.
The world is as it is, and I write for myself, but right from the
start, the formula for success has been quite simple - kiss the ass of
a thousand girls in thousand odd contorted ways and you have a
bestseller.
Sad.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:22:17 -0600
On 26 Aug 2002 11:44:52 -0700, qickless.invalidemail@fastmail.fm
(Qickless) wrote:
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:<um2a4f9qik4g9f@news.supernews.com> ...
[..]
You're right when you say it's not my cup of tea, but who cares? It's
obviously just what the doctor ordered for hundreds of others. The point is,
as writers, we aren't going to like everything that is written, but I can
[..]
A point that I have been trying to echo for some time. Stroke erotica
as in "stroke, stroke" erotica is one which appeals to the masses.
Want popularity? Write Fuck, Fuck, Fuck a thousand times and you get
to drink a lot of 10.0 beer. Writing subtle erotica takes a lot more
time(and perhaps more effort) but you get stuck in grade 2 and think
you're a loser.
There are different reasons to write. Popularity is one, but I
think that trying to write things purely to fit what the hypothetical
audience wants is difficult, demanding, and perhaps frustrating for
many of us. Maybe for most writers? Having something in it which is
your own desire, your own idea, your own tastes, etc., it what makes
it fun to do. Even if you are trying to reach a bigger audience,
having something you like in there seems essential.
So is there something wrong with liking lots of sex in fantasy
situations, with weak plots but lots of action? I doubt that
Hollywood is out looking for fine literate stories for most of its
movie making :-)
Not everyone will like every sort of story, whether it is for style
or activity or any other reason.
The world is as it is, and I write for myself, but right from the
start, the formula for success has been quite simple - kiss the ass of
a thousand girls in thousand odd contorted ways and you have a
bestseller.
Sad.
That kind of works, but I think that some best sellers don't follow
that plan. There are a lot which do, some do it very well. But there
is still room for variety.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Qickless
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 27 Aug 2002 09:59:42 -0700
Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3d6ae272$0$1434$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com> ...
[..]
The world is as it is, and I write for myself, but right from the
start, the formula for success has been quite simple - kiss the ass of
a thousand girls in thousand odd contorted ways and you have a
bestseller.
Sad.
That kind of works, but I think that some best sellers don't follow
that plan. There are a lot which do, some do it very well. But there
is still room for variety.
That makes it all alright,
which is why I write :-0
variety
is the spice of life(now I'm pushing it :-)
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Comments on NanoVirus, by cmsix.
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From: Bradley Stoke
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 13 Aug 2002 10:48:32 -0700
csmsix
Along with Smilodon and Al Steiner, you rank as one of the top writers on Stories OnLine. "NanoVirus" is really doing the business and scoring numbers that us lesser mortals can only envy. So, it was with some trepidation that I started reading your story. What can I learn from you?
Well. What I mostly learnt is that the readers who liked your stories would hate mine. That's just a fact. I also learnt how many people must be attracted to a world from what seems to me a fairly chauvinistic, American view of things. Long necked beers, flouncy girls in bars, arrogant and unattractive men who make it big in technology and screw the rest of them, talky oddball aliens who haven't changed in four billion years, jokey asides about democracy, religion and eugenics that are guaranteed to annoy the shit out of people like me. But none of these are reasons for the story not to be enjoyed. It just means that I'm immediately prejudiced and therefore an unreliable critic.
But I'll try.
I think the reason for the success of the story may well be the concept of a virus that clears out a load of people. So, a plus must be the device. There are a lot of stories like that. I rather liked "Day of the Triffids". And like "NanoVirus" it was also set in an unrepresentative corner of the world. You never see a story of this kind set in Afghanistan or Mali, though if the chips were down the toughest people in the world almost certainly don't live in South East England or Texas.
Another plus is probably the shift of focus, from interstellar cruisers just beyond Jupiter to a pre-apocalypse America. I guess a story told wholly from the perspective of portentous aliens would soon get dull, so we have the chance to see a more microcosmic view of things. Perhaps Jack becomes more of an everyman (rather than an insufferable arse) as the story progresses?
What I think needs improvement? Well, I haven't read the other reviews, but I guess I won't be the only one to point out the curious shift from third to first person perspective: Jack moves from being the third person protagonist to being the narrator.
Another thing that needs improvement is repetition. We get a reprise of how come Jack is wealthy in his conversation with Karen (who has just had the "best fuck" of her life. No surprises there.) However, this won't be the first science fiction story I've read which repeats itself unnecessarily. I once read one of the Gor novels, and Norman (whose writing style, politics and view of women are all rather appalling) can't help reprising almost word for word one of his incredibly juvenile arguments for male superiority (the women nodding in awe-struck agreement). So set against Norman and Gor, csmsix and "NanoVirus" is Tolstoy. Or Emile Zola. Or Dostoevsky.
So, well done!
Bradley Stoke
http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:27:48 GMT
"Bradley Stoke" <bradley_stoke@hushmail.com> wrote in message news:aaacc8d6.0208130948.70963835@posting.google.com ...
The plot device constructed by the alien scene is the basis for the whole story and I thought putting it first and getting it out of the way would be simplest. I still think so. I didn't want to write the whole thing as a detached narrator. Jack couldn't see the aliens. So I narrated the aliens, moved to earth with a little narration and then slipped the change of perspective in using dialog, which I think is always tantamount to a change of perspective, to camouflage my evil deed.
Karen certainly had no expectation of leaving the Broken Spoke with a cowboy and ending up in his six bedroom ranch house. I would have felt it strange if she hadn't remarked on it. You probably noticed but were too kind to mention that I'm not really a technically talented writer; at best I'm a storyteller that is typing. Repetition is bound to crop up.
A little like saying Saddam Hussein wasn't nearly so bad compared to Hitler. I do thank you for the thought.
I also thank you for taking your time to read this chapter of NanoVirus and for being generous enough to give me your comments on what you read.
cmsix
"Bradley Stoke" <bradley_stoke@hushmail.com> wrote in message news:aaacc8d6.0208130948.70963835@posting.google.com ...
From: celia batau
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:49:10 -0700
hi cmsix and Des!
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:ulfdn4e7o5k74@news.supernews.com ...
pozzie one: the idea is good. :) kind of like Douglas Adam's earth. :)
pozzie two: focusing on one character's experience is good. we got a sense that something was coming and it gave us time to get used to the character. :)
neggie one: kind of too much exposition stretched out over too much time. we think maybe it might be stronger if the whole beginning were condensed and the details of the experiment became visible during the actual sterilization.
neggie two: the dialogue was unlike what we're used to, so maybe it's just our experience. but it felt carnivorous, if that makes sense?
yay cmsix! :)
-cb
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:53:47 GMT
"celia batau" <pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:1029268176.190891@news1.bigplanet.com ...
Having someone with your talent say that I even made her recall Douglas Adam's for a second made my day.
I know that the aliens were a strange beginning to a sex story. They did get a little wordy but I just couldn't shut them up. Thankfully that was the last of them for a few hundred years. They're off to be "somebody else's problem".
I love this comment and I just wish I could understand it better. I'm begging you to give me just one more hint. I'm off my chair and am typing this on my knees, I promise. Do you mean the dialog of the aliens or all the dialog, including Jack, Nancy and Karen? Please don't tell me that the answer is 42.
I can't tell you how happy I was when I saw that you had read my chapter and commented on it. I appreciate it.
cmsix
"celia batau" <pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:1029268176.190891@news1.bigplanet.com ...
From: celia batau
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:25:26 -0700
hi cmsix!
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:LBz79.9511$LO1.743609@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
um, it's just that in our experience, guys will come on, say stuff, but it's all in this playing inuendo. if a guy comes on and just says "i wanna f'ck," then there's just a flat turn-down.
so reading the straight-forward dialogue between the characters was kind of like the lions coming over to prey on the gazelles, but the gazelles were also hip-hopping over to sit with the lions. :)
hope that made sense. :)
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
Everybody jumping jumping
Everybody dancing now
Ay Mama
Que sabrosa tu estás
-Rabanes
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:02:17 GMT
Thank you again, it makes perfect sense now.
cmsix
"celia batau" <pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:1029695154.70867@news1.bigplanet.com ...
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:16:58 -0600
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:25:26 -0700, "celia batau" <pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote:
Unless you're at a party or someplace where you're planning to do that. But most bars and clubs don't seem to be quite that open.
If a girl comes on to a guy and says the same thing, the response might not be so flat a turn down. But it may not be yes, either. I know, that might be strange, but I've seen it happen. Too open a request can feel threatening, demanding, and scary.
It does to me. While loosing inhibitions via intoxication can help bring out the hunting instints in the "gazelles," the interaction tends to be more subtle. There are exceptions, and maybe this place is one of those where it is OK for both sexes to play hunter.
Now, I think it is OK for both to do it. A lady doesn't want to be stuck going home empty-handed just because no guy was brave enough to make an offer.
In this story, that wasn't likely to happen. So it is a change perhaps from the places that celia hangs out, and maybe lots of the rest of us too?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:11:20 -0600
On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:10:59 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote:
Number one thing, and this is a repeat but I think it is worth it: the long introduction needs to get moved later in the story. You want a few paragraphs to set up the situation, but not much detail. Just that the use of a nanovirus has been approved, the situation is unusual, and the scientists find it both interesting and sad.
Then, when the deaths from the prisons are reported on TV, stick in a commentary from the alien observers, commenting on the reaction and progress.
But don't foreshadow the result. The story is told, once you get past this opening, from Jack's POV, directly. As a reader of the story, I don't need to know all about what bad things are coming. The "omens" from the intro should be enough, no details yet needed.
Once it gets past the opening stages, explaining things can be done. It changes the tense, you have them reporting on the results going "as expected" rather than projecting them.
I don't want to overdo repeats, but the switch from 3rd person to 1st is confusing. Of the two, 1st is better for all of Jack's story if you want to tell it strongly from his POV. But 3rd is better if you want to show more. Whichever you pick, I just can't get into the switch midway.
Jack's life and relationships are a bit grating. A bit of "mirror" in it, but frankly though he seems interesting he also seems to have a somewhat shallow life, for all the money and success. Now, if you present it from his POV purely, then he can give his own justifications strongly. Not sure if you can pull that off so well if you stick with 3rd person, which might be why you changed it during the sex parts.
Jack's Broken Spoke seems like a nice country music meeting place, though I found it odd that he'd think he wouldn't pick up a "chick" there. I know a local place of similar name and nature, and I'd figure that the pick-up rate would be rather decent. Especially given how things work out when he goes in there; it seems set up to be the sort of place where singles meet for casual flings.
Still, where are the friends trying to get him out of his single guy playboy rut? Where are the obsessed ex-girlfriends and golddiggers who got really close to him, and aren't at all unhappy with his drop-em-dead policy? But that is probably outside the scope, though I think he'd have something to say about those who just didn't go away when he kicked 'em loose.
On other things, though ... maybe, open with the 3rd person background of Jack, then go to space (still for just a little bit, not all the gory details), then back on earth in first person - switching POV then changes from the start as off-camera narrator, the 2nd as the omniscient "space citizen," the last as a very personal, direct first person POV of Jack himself.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:03:45 GMT
Jeff
Thank you for taking the time to read this chapter of NanoVirus and for your detailed descriptions of the things you think might imporve it.
"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d599245$0$1421$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...
I guess I just don't understand your thinking here. As it is the aliens are over and done with for the next five hundred years. You suggest that I break them up and have them slip back in later. Later you bring up the switch of perspective again. How would I bring the aliens back without switching again?
One of the points of the aliens appearing once, having their say, and leaving is to let the readers know that this is not just a stroker. This also establishes the plot device in terms that are as believable as possible considering its revelations. Those that aren't interested in a little plot with their titillation will find out fast and can leave without having wasted much of their time. Those that read on must swallow some of the premise and are soon prepared for the leap of faith that they must take to continue.
And I am so glad to see that this point is noticeable.
Exactly. And I have pulled it off. Anyone that keeps reading for their own reasons after this part is not bothered by the change of perspective if they even notice it. The perspective changed exactly after Nancy gave Jack a rundown on Karen. She had some dialog, Jack had some, then she had her little "synchronizing our watches" speech. When Jack left to ask Karen to dance he was in command of the narrative. It is probably my inexperience as a storyteller that I just can't fathom the taboo against changing perspective.
Jack didn't go there expecting to find a woman because it wasn't the type of baited field he usually hunted over. In my experience drunken cowgirls aren't nearly as impressed by financial well being as the type of women that Jack generally preyed on. I apparently failed to leave enough clues of Jack's feelings of insecurity, about his attractiveness to women, which he was using his nouveaux riches status to alleviate.
Jack will never have any male friends; a moderately trusted acquaintance is the best you can ever hope for on this front. I'm afraid that is directly traceable to my influence. Jack doesn't like men. He's never had any real pals and he doesn't want any.
In my view the aliens have to come first. They are needed to establish the plot device and they are an additional help to warn off readers that aren't interested in any plot. I am considering toning them down a little but the gist of what they have to say has to stay.
Thank you again for taking your time to go over this chapter and for pointing out things that need improvement.
cmsix
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:24:30 -0600
On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:03:45 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote:
The aliens' discussion seems parallel in time with Jack's day. As for switch of perspective, it isn't a problem when there is some transition between them which lets the reader know about the change, and maybe suggests why it happens. So, if there are interludes between scenes, there is plenty of space there for a scene change. As the lovers sleep, go back to the alien discussion.
I like having a story open with action, or at least not go on forever before getting some. On the other hand, I'm as likely to go on a bit in the introduction too. So the question is, is the story more effective with a chapter's worth of alien activity with no human reference? Sure, the aliens go away. But they do talk on a lot about things which aren't especially relevant to the story as shown, not until the next chapter or later.
Ok, think of it like this: You're watching a movie, and you see the room, the people talking. The camera maybe moves from looking at one or another, back and forth.
Suddenly, it shifts, showing you what one character sees. No longer are you watching the entire scene. You're attached to their eyes, look where they look, go where they go.
The change jars. It isn't that you cannot change perspective, it is that you need something to separate the two POVs. I don't think it is fatal, it is just that "frequent readers" are likely to notice it, even if they don't mention it.
Part of the "secret" of writing is making the writing style part of the background. Now, one way to think of a story for those familiar with TV and movies (or even stage plays) is to look at the situation as a sequence of scenes. With, in long stories, breaks for "commercials," or just spots to give the reader/viewer a chance to breathe.
When the situation changes, when time passes quickly, when one character has a sudden blazing change of heart or whatever, you get some clues to cue you about that. the POV changes need cues, something to let the reader know that things are changing.
I suppose, I just have a hard time getting into him like that. OK, maybe, it just seems sad that he's avoided friendship and love up until now.
Well, people like the story, which is a good thing. I think I'd break up the intro segment, but if you think it works better as a solid block intro, I can see that. I've a tendency to put background stuff in the beginning of long stories. My estimate is that only about a third of this first chapter is filled with aliens, the rest of it is all on Earth. The aliens do kind of talk like political commentators, and I don't know if that is intentional. Once you get passed them, and into the action, things move along nicely.
Still, my feeling is more a "what I'd do" maybe than what works best. I looked at a couple of my long pieces, and figure I spent maybe three pages on intro out of about sixty pages. That felt long to me, though I was setting up character info, not global background, and not really a separate story scene without a direct relationship to the rest.
The other thing is that, for most of the rest of the tale, the intro isn't so relevant. The effects on the characters is, and from their POV it doesn't matter why it happened. Because of that, the single block intro might not matter so much. Those bored with it can just skip ahead to the 'good stuff' :-)
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Tesseract
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 18 Aug 2002 04:53:09 -0700
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<lDA79.9596$LO1.751028@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> ... ...
I noticed the change. That you meant it is a good thing. These kinds of things often show up as accidents that should be fixed in a later edit.
There is nothing wrong with changing perspective as you did, if there is a good reason for it. But the reader needs to know that it was deliberate. Some kind of a break would be nice. Say, start a new chapter when you change perspective. I can't think of any good reason that the change had to happen exactly where it did - in mid stride. If you think it necessary then do it a bit earlier or a bit later. Or start Jack's story in the first person.
You could also put the alien stuff in a separate chapter. What's that? You say the chapters would be too small? I've read some good novels that had both chapters of about thirty pages and chapters of one page. A chapter is as big as it has to be. Since you want to keep the alien stuff as a prologue it would fit in a separate chapter. And you may want to expand it with some of the suggestions other people have made.
Tesseract
From: Iconoclast
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:12:55 GMT
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote on Mon 12 Aug 2002 06:10:59a
I read it. I must have liked it, because I want to read the other chapters. But. I find it difficult to review a segment, a chapter of a longer work, because I know that some of my questions may be answered. I deliberately avoided reading the other parts so as not to influence me. A story, as a story, posted in the Fish Tank or anywhere has to stand by itself. Otherwise why bother? A fragment is just that - a part of a whole. As well, I saw that this story in its entirety garnered the number one spot in StoriesOnline. Since I can no longer access StoriesOnline because I didn't go there often enough to keep my membership valid (I think I read one story when I joined and didn't go back for six months. I really hate html.) I couldn't have read the rest if I wanted to.
Anyhow, let's review this part as a complete story.
I liked the change of view from the aliens to the story of the humans. There was a definite shift in style and concept from the alien story, which read like a dry bureaucratic report, to the point of view of our protagonist, which was far more human sounding.
The sex was hot, and well described though it didn't go over the top. A very definite plus in this setting.
So, I liked the sex description, I even liked the protagonist somewhat, and I liked the POV change from the aliens to Jack. I found no grammar or spelling errors worth mentioning.
What I didn't like. The polemics. When the aliens are discussing who goes and who stays we get: out - "all incarcerated criminals", "all other criminals", "all political decision makers" as well as "all members of militaries" and "all policing personnel". "All religious leaders and religious teachers will be terminated." This all sounded more like an Ayn Rand discussion group than a story. I just wasn't convinced that an alien species would care.
Even more critical, the linchpin of all that happens next, is the reason for the sterilization of the planet. We are given no reason. These guys have a geological time horizon. We find out that this particular experiment has been going on for 4 billion years. We are told that one of their passing ships sent in a report. What sort of report? We don't find out. Anyway, without any clue as to what the report said (did they conclude the humans were a threat? A pain in the ass? They picked their noses?) the decision to wipe out the human race is made. Abruptly, with no further discussion of the topic at hand, we find out that:
Harsh. Progress in what? Consequently we have no idea why Jack would survive (I presume he does) or the criteria other than those automatically terminated because they don't meet some unknown alien standard.
I liked the characters (other than the aliens) enough to want to read more, so that makes the story successful. I approach the 1:4 male to female ratio with some trepidation. Sounds like too much wish fulfillment. Good job, cmsix.
Iconoclast
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:57:39 GMT
Iconoclast
Thank you for reading NanoVirus. I know it is long for the Fish Tank and I appreciate you taking the time to comment on it.
"Iconoclast" <kreisthornNOSPAM@shaw.caNADA> wrote in message news:Xns926A3F7F9F5kreisthornNOSPAMshaw@24.69.255.211 ...
The aliens didn't care. The details of who is right or who is wrong are below their consideration. The whole civilization is to be destroyed. Anyone that they think will bring back the old or help bring it back will be terminated.
"Unfortunately it is also projected that their political systems will have effectively strangled hope for out of system exploration."
What else could aliens want from us. The aliens obviously have the power to do with us as they want. They have started life on one of their planets. The life they started has mired itself in its own concerns and is not progressing as a species to join its creators.
The aliens don't care about political or religious systems. They hope for an organized political system that uses most of its resources to advance the specis. They are ambivalent about religion and assume that at some point in time facts will rear their ugly head and deal with religion.
They kill the criminals since they are by definition nonproductive. They kill not some of the political, business and religious leasers, but all of them, giving the survivors tabula rasa for the new civilization that they must produce. The military and police must go to make sure that the old order is not simply restored. They want a sentient species that is advancing toward off world exploration. They don't want to direct them or micro manage them. They want the monkeys to type out their own masterpiece.
I wanted the readers to gather this for themselves. I assume I haven't given enough clues and will be going over it again.
I know it isn't explained in detail. The only real criteria for survivors, excepting anomalies, are intelligent physically robust breeding age humans. If they have been previously apolitical, all the better.
If you do happen to read any more of it you will find that 1:4 men to women doesn't begin to describe Jack's trials.
Thanks again for taking your time to read and comment on NanoVirus and for helping me locate things that I should explain more thoroughly.
cmsix
From: Iconoclast
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:50:43 GMT
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote on Sat 17 Aug 2002 04:57:39p
Aha, I skipped over that. A little more emphasis in the story on this pivotal reason would make a world of difference. It would provide a logical objective. I'm not sure (hell, I'm for sure not sure) that this would provide sufficient reason for me, but it would be a plausible reason that I could accept for an alien mindset.
I think that would be good. On the other hand, I saw the movie "Signs" the other day. Your reasons given above are miles ahead of a movie company that spent millions on writers and stars and directing to achieve nothing. At its base is a cheezy script that comes right out of 1950s paranoia, with aliens that have all the ferocity and ultimate power of the villains in a Beach Blanket movie. I still think that we should hold ourselves to a higher standard, but there seems to be a powerful lack of writing standards these days, and discrimination on the part of viewers.
Iconoclast
From: john
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 14 Aug 2002 23:10:35 -0700
I got into the scifi bit which is an accomplishment for me. About the only science fiction I've seriously read is a somewhat beaten up copy of a Kilgore Trout novella. This author is no Trout. Trout would have killed off all the lawyers and tele-marketers and used-car salesmen way before the criminals. Nevertheless, it worked for me. Someone who reads or writes this genre should tell me why it works? By rights, 1600 words of stilted dialogue ought to put one right to sleep. It didn't. In the end I was sorry to see their starship thingy cleared for takeoff.
I liked the premise though. (The older that one gets, the easier it is to smile about the extermination of the human race. <g>) The seeding and sterilization ploy twigged my fancy. Dumb question though. If it's a 2, 000,000,000 year process (in the streamlined version) what kind of "promise" could be shown in a mere 500 years? It led me to believe this part just might be fiction.
I reckon chapter 2 or 3 will hog tie the rich man to the aliens. It took my breath away a bit to actually "drawl" after listening to Ergit and Inglan roboticaly converse. The list of lovely redneck comments too long to list. But ...
should win a prize. (Ok, Brad. Fursure an American Prize.) No matter that the comparison is antithetical, the accent is pure molasses and grits.
Whahooo.
John
From: Gary Jordan
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 15 Aug 2002 07:39:10 GMT
Up scope in the Fish Tank. :)
Disclaimer: I have read all thirty (30) chapters published so far at Stories Online. I can't address this chapter alone, out of context, knowing how the story progresses. That said:
Two positives.
I like the overall theme of an alien race being disappointed with their attempt to play god and rather than just taking a do-over, trying to salvage the best of the batch.
I like the protagonist, Jack. He does his best to care for everyone that comes within his sphere.
Two recommendations for improvements:
The aliens just don't seem ... real. (Well, duh, somebody is saying - they're aliens.) They have the technology, the drive to "seed" planets and then kick back to watch them grow. But they don't have the means nor the desire to check them any more often than once in 2 billion years? Even the worst Star Trek episode wasn't that strange. Lose the time references, and/or put in an auto-monitoring facility (maybe a stealthy drone out by Uranus) that signals them the yeast is getting moldy.
The selection process is just bizarre. If there was some way of identifying a mutation to their original seeding that caused one to become a criminal (or a particular type of criminal), say for example a "greed gene," I could see it. But as it stands, if Jack had gotten arrested for speeding home to get laid, he'd be dead now. You kill off all active duty military, but leave the recently discharged alive, absent other factors. It doesn't seem to be mentioned, but IIRC you terminated all children of less than child-bearing years.
There just didn't seem to be any allowance for people exactly like Jack, but who happened to be policemen or soldiers at the time of the virus. The selection was TOO arbitrary.
My biggest complaint is proofreading. This may well be the best of the 30 chapters in that regard. Still, things like "forth planet" snuck in. (So much for super-intelligent aliens.)
Since this is the only chapter under consideration, I won't bring up that only big-breasted tight-pussied women survive (I didn't notice those in the aliens' selection criteria) or all the hymens located 3" deep ...
That's beyond the
Down scope.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often." <I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays </I>
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:10:37 -0700
On 15 Aug 2002 07:39:10 GMT, pjcocoa@aol.come.to.bed (Gary Jordan) held forth, saying:
What other planet would use Forth?
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it." - G.B. Shaw
From: David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:05:20 GMT
On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:10:37 -0700,
dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.invalid
<dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.invalid> wrote:
A planet full of polish people in reverse?
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more. Free the Memes.
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:46:49 -0700
On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:05:20 GMT, "David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)" <dformosa@dformosa.zeta.org.au> held forth, saying:
Platypus must have used Forth once upon a time. <g>
7 44 3 + *
aaaaaiiiieeeee!!
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it." - G.B. Shaw
From: David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:33:09 GMT
On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:46:49 -0700,
dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.invalid
<dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.invalid> wrote:
[ ...]
Just a little from playing with the ok prompt on Sun hardware.
329
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more. Free the Memes.
From: celia batau
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:18:04 -0700
hi Gary!
"Gary Jordan" <pjcocoa@aol.come.to.bed> wrote in message news:20020815033910.18305.00000529@mb-mk.aol.com ...
that really would be a sex story. ;)
groan.
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
utsukushii hoshi ni sumu
utsukushii hitobito
utsukushikute tooi hoshi no
natsukashii hitobito
itsuka boku o
omoidashite.
-Pizzicato Five
From: Gary Jordan
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 16 Aug 2002 11:17:26 GMT
Hi, celia!
groan!
Still, they did use a number of probes ...
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often." <I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays </I>
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:45:08 GMT
Gary Jordan
Thank you for taking your time to read and comment on NanoVirus. I know that it is longer than the usual "Fish Tank" entry and I appreciate your endurance.
"Gary Jordan" <pjcocoa@aol.come.to.bed> wrote in message news:20020815033910.18305.00000529@mb-mk.aol.com ...
Since this isn't their first rodeo, the aliens already know that nothing meaningful will happen for about four billion years. Civilization only sprang up in the last five thousand or so. They weren't interested in checking out the dinosaurs. I also hoped to leave the impression that this wasn't their only project.
identifying a
Here somehow I have let you go astray. The selection process was only interested in finding the best intelligent physically robust humans for breeding. The criminals, politicians, business leaders, military and police were never considered for survival. They constitute the civilization, which is the main culprit. The aliens found nothing significantly wrong with the species that evolved.
Of course there was no allowance for them. It wasn't arbitrary at all. Policemen or Soldiers would have tended to help restore the old civilization and they all died. They weren't killed arbitrarily, they were killed by design. The only reason they weren't killed first was so they could direct traffic and bury the dead.
I will try to do better.
This is a sex story. Large breasts and tight pussies are popular in this type of story and I didn't see any need to resist that trend. As far as the hymens and their locations are concerned, I was making that up out of whole cloth, having never encountered one in real life.
Thanks again for reading this chapter of NanoVirus and for commenting on it.
cmsix
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:59:09 -0600
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:45:08 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote:
It is only slightly longer, and I think they tend to the 5000 word limit.
Though I can't complain about tight pussies, I do like variety in other body parts. But everyone has different tastes; I just happen to find variety more interesting than clone-like similarity.
On the hymen thing, maybe it needs to be in a sex story writer's FAQ?
Anyway, it is the sort of thing that those who have encountered them in RL notice. It is rather hard not to notice where it is when you're touching it. While it seems like a popular story theme, the actual results can vary a lot (just like the body types), but AFAIK nothing is going to let the hymen grow that deep.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 04:44:00 GMT
"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d5f0db3$0$1428$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...
In honor of your enlightening me on anatomy I will put one woman of any breasts size you choose in the next chapter. You may select her name if you like.
cmsix
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:15:36 -0600
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 04:44:00 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks. Not sure what name to pick, but as for type, a nice skinny girl with a Twiggy sort of chest would be fun. Lots of energy, a tight hard body, what's not to like? The breasts still work just fine, fun to play with, nice to kiss ...
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 05:12:54 GMT
Jeff:
Seven took me down to the meeting room and I did my thing, shaking hands and trying to seem like a regular guy. The only thing remarkable about this iteration was a small, slightly skinny cutie pie with Twiggy type breast named Sparkle. An evidently permanent grin was stamped into her pixie like face and her boundless energy seemed to bubble up out of her.
How's that? I used the name of a stripper I knew once in Dallas who had a similar body style, maybe more muscular than what I picture here. The stripper got a little too familiar with crack and had to move deeper into the sex entertainment industry to afford it. I came back through with a coast-to-coast load one week and she was dead, apparently at the hands of her pimp.
cmsix
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:23:46 -0600
On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 05:12:54 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote:
That will work fine. I've known more than a few energetic skinny sorts of girls, including one of my first girlfriends. I didn't want to use her name, though (I've called her Annie in my JZL story).
Sparkle sounds like a fun name. Strippers often seem to pick interesting names, though their real names are often even more interesting.
I don't find the sad life story endings to be fun from that life at all. But a lot of the women who get into that sort of work don't end up that badly.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:10:20 GMT
john
Thank you for taking your time to read and comment on NanoVirus. It means a lot to me to get this kind of feedback.
"john" <johndear@softhome.net> wrote in message news:d828919b.0208142210.3dbdadad@posting.google.com ...
That is the point of the new procedure. They want to see if they can skip the first four billion or so years of bringing life up from single cells to humans. It is only an experiment for them. If the survivors haven't gotten their asses off earth and begun poking around the solar system in five hundred more years they will all be toast.
The aliens aren't even revealed to Jack for another twenty-eight chapters. He will be running around Texas drawling for another 1200k of text, at least. As for his wealth, it will be useless in a few weeks.
Thanks again for taking the time to read and comment on NanoVirus.
cmsix
From: Garys Muses Sockpuppet
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 15 Aug 2002 16:20:11 GMT
Positives. 1. This, despite the interjection of all the unbelievable alien stuff at the beginning, is a stroke story to end all stroke stories. Even the woman that the hero isn't sleeping with lets him know that she will, when they can "synchronize their watches" and the one that does doesn't want a relationship, she just wants a good time. And the chapter ends with her insisting he perform anal sex, so we know it only gets better, from a stroke perspective.
2. We can be certain that humanity will triumph in the end, because these improbable aliens are so backwards despite their billions of years head start that all we need is a boost in technology and we'll replace them.
Suggestions for improvement.
1. Make the aliens believable.
Highly evolved/technologically advanced aliens don't own an intercom? A general announcing system?
They have enemies. Any reasonable race would be colonizing and building bases, not running experiments that take billions of years to bear fruit.
Also, data that was gathered 50 years ago was delivered to the head geek and poof, here they are in the system. Was it sent 4th class mail, or what? They can put together an expedition to check out earth and travel there in under 50 hours, but they can't deliver data for 50 years?
This is hard to reconcile. If the data were such low priority, then why is the nanovirus mission such high priority?
Fertilizer! Bullshit, in other words. Use some realistic time frames! Check some references WRT the age of the solar system. Did they seed a nebular cloud to cause a star to form?
It takes 22 hours to gather and correlate data on which to form a course of action for a planet of 6 billion people, properly identifying which to cull, etc .... But it takes 4 billion years to check the progress of their experiment to begin with. Unbelievable!
My, how convenient for the stroke aspects of the story ...
They can gather and analyze data about the entire planet in 22 hours, but separating the criminals from the wrongfully imprisoned will take too long ...
Now, there's a logical criteria for elimination. Granted, a lot of politicians are on a power trip, but can't this intelligent virus determine those who serve and protect? Arbitrary and silly.
Unless of course a physically perfect intelligent person is receiving a government paycheck, for whatever reason.
Just a pet peeve - a nuclear reactor has to be critical in order to work at all. The terminology for a reactor that is out of control is supercritical, and even that isn't a major concern for an untended reactor - it'll eventually shut down on its own. The concern is damage that releases radioactive materials to the environment.
They trust their artificial intelligences to oversee the progress of the human race for 500 years but need a helmsman to lay in a course, following verbal orders. There must be a powerful helmsman union, like the fireman's union on diesel engine trains.
2. The next recommendation is for what's missing. You have a separately titled story (somebody and red?) that parallels this chapter and some that follow. WTH is it separate? Weave it in here, switching back and forth between the aliens and earth, You kill off that story's protagonist with the nanovirus anyway, totally anticlimactic for an independant read. It should be blended in, starting here in chapter 1. It introduces plot elements that are vital to this story. It should be here. Hell, it's just as strokeworthy as this one, so that won't hurt.
They need to be combined. The other really isn't a stand-alone story.
Des, please forgive me for using this method to make more than my share of comments in the tank. I just hadda doit.
Gary's Muse's Sockpuppet
Cry "Hammock!"
And let slip the fogs of snore.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:48:00 -0600
On 15 Aug 2002 16:20:11 GMT, romancesfool@aol.complainer (Garys Muses Sockpuppet) wrote:
Advanced tech doesn't mean they won't impose cultural rules which slow things down.
Now, the trick is to figure out which things are part of their culture, which are features of the species (instincts can overrule intelligence too), and which need to be fixed to make them believable.
As aliens, they can be quite strange, and culturally they should be different from humans.
We don't know what the pursuit was about, do we? Might have been the equivalent of a police chase - the enemy is part of their society. You don't need to build new bases against internal problems - the new bases might make some.
Billion year time cycles means a race which isn't much like humans anyway. Once you allow them to be so slow in planning, you have to allow them to be slow in other ways.
They were already in the neighborhood? So it wasn't much of a diversion? But the data collection and transmission, that was sent elsewhere nominally, and it takes longer to get there.
We don't need to know how far away the aliens are. But if they were close, then it doesn't make sense not to monitor more often. Ergo, write up the aliens as being from far away, no bases near, and of course no enemies near either (else they need bases).
Because the ship was on a schedule. Maybe it might slow it down on its mission, which probably takes a millennium or so to complete on schedule as it is?
Maybe the aliens do things "by the book." It is easier to see the action being part of a programmed bureaucracy than individual decision making. We don't need to see the rule book, they just have to make some small mention of doing things according to the code or whatever.
That puts it right on the threshold for start of life, not the entire solar system. Though maybe they can do that part too?
Precision doesn't matter, so much as the idea that they are pretty arrogant but unbelievably slow acting.
Or maybe they lied? Are they still doing seeding, or is it something out of the legendary past? Even a really long lived civilization might have some blurriness in its records of 4 billion years ago.
Onsite, they can decide things quickly, because they are following a preset program.
As for the other part, maybe it isn't true? I do find the 4 billion year delay odd, making them very strange and not at all human. Yet they act and react, though in an odd way, something like humans.
Maybe the actual planning department is something else?
This description sounds like doublespeak. The thing achieved differs from the stated goal. Why the alien says this, we don't know. Maybe it gets explained later.
Arbitrary actions aren't out of line, really, if the aliens are diffferent from humans. The goals may seem odd, maybe mistranslated. The effects, though, are what matter.
Maybe the explanation for who gets culled needs to be smoother. But if the rules for culling the species requires arbitrary eliminations as the most effective solution, it doesn't matter if the reasons are spurious.
Maybe some student asks why they can't do better, and gets shot down by an elder? That could clear things up a lot, just a bit of insight into the apparent illogic of the aliens.
Since we aren't likely to get a good explanation from them, unless humans interact with them (and even then it might be strange), doing stuff to keep it clear that they aren't acting in a sensible human fashion is a good idea.
Yeah, that one doesn't work. The reactor can't fail catastrophically from ordinary operation; it will slow down eventually on its own. The ordinary automation could handle that, plus the operators could pull it offline simply due to lack of personnel.
OTOH, there are no end of other operations which involve hazardous materials, which the nanovirus tech could help out with. Such as simply cleaning up all polluting toxins, and sealing/recycling all hazardous materials in other situations.
I haven't read the rest of the series, so I can't say what all the aliens might want to program for.
It still, though, feels like a sham. The alien commander is lying about the reasons for the action, and the basis. Of course, they may not know any better; we don't know enough about them.
AI can't run their own ships ;-)
But it can decide where they go and what they must do on their missions :-)
In essence, it makes sense if the culture plays out working relationship roles, and doesn't (in essence) delegate authority among themselves to machines.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Garys Muses Sockpuppet
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 16 Aug 2002 11:02:23 GMT
Jeff Zephyr jeffzeph@hotmail.com on 8/15/02 5:48 PM Central Daylight Time said:
<snip>
The point, as you pointed out in your own post, is that the alien culture is irrelevant, and including little snippets which make them less believable JAR.
The means of summoning the scientist are unimportant. Telepathy would work as well. We only need "Commander Ergit summoned Chief Population Scientist Inglan (whose presence, after all, was the main reason for the mission)."
As several people have said, everything the aliens do is background, and should be minimized.
A (dis)advantage of reading all 30+ chapters (so far, and including the side chapters from "and Red") is that we DO know there are unfriendly aliens besides these.
As far as letting them be slow, that's what jars worse. They take an incredibly long view? Then why the rash, hasty, breakneck speed of their intervention. 50 hours after finally receiving 50 yo info, they are taking action! Inconsistent and jarring.
That's just apologistic. The inconsistencies between identifying them as a methodical, plodding, long-thinking species and the speed of these actions is incredible and jarring.
Again, it's enemies run too ground that result in the report. Or so it will eventually (29-30 chapters later) be revealed.
Yes, it could be a "programmed response." But specific mention of the times of the seeding, the gathering of the data, and response time just don't make sense.
Slow acting? 50 hours? Do we not see the inconsistancy?
Relegating the information to mis-information serves no purpose. Who are they lying to?
This is identified as a radical departure from presets, something new.
Mat's suggestion to move alien involvement further into the background might make the speculation irrelevent.
It doesn't get explained, it gets reported. I'd like to see all the alien discussion of specific target groups removed. Vague talk of criteria that would improve the race is one thing. Targeting specific groups (criminals) without defining in alien terms what is considered a crime (e.g. "placing personal benefit over that of the species") is silly.
I would expect their criteria to seem arbitrary from our perspective. But it is expressed in human terms. All incarcerated criminals, followed by all loose criminals. They use human definitions of criminals. All their discussion seems to point to anti-evolutionary behaviour. So have them define it that way.
<snip lesson in nuclear power plant operation>
The point is, specifics aren't needed, and detract rather than enhance. The probe is in place. No further oversight is needed. They depart.
Gary's Muse's Sockpuppet
Cry "Hammock!"
And let slip the fogs of snore.
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:50:19 -0700
On 16 Aug 2002 11:02:23 GMT, romancesfool@aol.complainer (Garys Muses Sockpuppet) held forth, saying:
Maybe the aliens should just hire Mickey Finn.
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it." - G.B. Shaw
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:49:52 -0600
On 16 Aug 2002 11:02:23 GMT, romancesfool@aol.complainer (Garys Muses Sockpuppet) wrote:
Right. I haven't read the rest of the series, but the opener makes a bad impression as soon as you apply any logic to it. SF fans are all to apt to do it. Plot holes are sometimes hard to avoid, premises can be weak, but you can only go so far out on a limb before it breaks.
I think that makes the most sense. I don't know if the humans ever find out. But from the perspective of the humans, the alien info isn't known at all. While as a writer I can see putting together some synopsis of that action, I think it is something which can safely be minimized in the story itself.
True. It makes as much sense to say that the data was collected 50 years ago, and they've finally come to a conclusion about what to do. The plot point of the aliens is to cause massive deaths, and the reasons for it aren't as critical.
In practice, do they give reasons? Do they need to give reasons? Someone analyzed the situation, and decided after a "brief" deliberation to "crash" the society in order to fix it (I think that 50 years would be brief; unless humans are somehow one of the super-fast evolving species, but if these aliens have made a lot of worlds, wouldn't they have hit some others which have rapid social change).
From the reader's POV, I don't think that knowing the details in advance helps.
It is, I agree. A fast reaction could make sense if some outside force was accelerating their plodding responses - like when Earth is demolished in Hitchhikers's Guide To the Galaxy. Though in practice, that entire plot point is just to set up the trip that Arthur Dent goes on. The explanation is a lot weaker in impact (and not given at the start of the story) than the event itself, and the followup entertainment.
This story isn't exactly parallel to that, but the scale of operation is similar.
Hmm, which makes us wonder what sorts of dangerous aliens there are, and why this billions of years old species hasn't done more to eliminate such threats.
They could be incompetent, but that only makes sense if their universe is rather benign for them.
Which is why a lot of that could be left out until later. And maybe not given at all. It is necessary that the author know the timetable and effects. The reader can learn about the effects when they happen. The why of it might be safely left a mystery. Otherwise, you risk making an explanation which is weak, hurting the feel of the story.
Themselves. One group within them knows more, but maybe no one really knows what they're doing now? If they've used AIs for a long time, they might have lost track of just how and why things work. The scientist types talk like they know what they are doing, but in fact perhaps all they are doing is reading the instruction lists off a computer-generated report?
Which is a plot problem, as you say.
I think that that is right, this is a case of too much information - and not about the sexual participants and actions, which doesn't revolve around that info.
Right, this all is stuff which I think might be read off the report, without much explanation. I do think that if they are zapping all incarcerated criminals, there is no need to have a limitation on the operation. It is what they wanted to do, and given their means there is no reason that they shouldn't simply be said to be carrying out their plan as intended.
If the plan is broken, then if I were an alien scientist I'd want to know more. As it is, the whole thing makes more sense as a sort of "science project" operation, an experiment, an artistic endeavor, or something where being arbitrary and unfair can be justified. If the chief scientist wants to do X, that is what we do. The why of it is simply to see what will happen. There is an expectation, but experiments are how you learn new things.
Makes sense to me. They don't explain what the problem is, or why their changes fix it. They want to rebuild the society, and are using brute force culling to change the social order. They've analyzed the existing order (and that may have taken some time even for them), and decided that their solution is to eliminate it.
They made a list, checked it two billion times, then decided who was naughty or nice. The NV is just the means of "shooting" the particular victims selected off the list. If they used human terms to pick out some people to terminate, that is OK - that is the source material for the database of targets.
OTOH, all the effects can be reported, without much explanation. As each new group is killed off, the news reports may come to some conclusion. Without reading the next chapter, though, I'd think that the CDC and similar medical groups would deduce that the deaths are artificially induced, if not the source. The pattern is non-random, and non-random tends not to be natural.
True. It is a space TV show convention, and fits in that regard, but I don't think it is applicable to these aliens. Q from Trek would just say his last words and be gone, no explanation about how or why.
Now, really long lived slow acting aliens are present in some SF stories. Trying to incorporate them as models of thought for these aliens might help. The age of them, coupled with their ability to act decisively, poses problems. The simplest solution is that they are a damaged species. They record history over billions of years, but they have no direct experience, no education, and no technology which has survived those eons. Something went really wrong. Maybe they stagnated, forced into a very slow, glacial, maybe even backsliding tech model (a nasty ruling entity which suppresses development?). Maybe they've zapped themselves a few million times, but always recovered eventually? Whatever, they simply aren't as timelessly all-powerful and eternal as they act. They may believe, almost religiously, that they are. But in practice, they just aren't all that tough or capable.
Of course, you don't need to be supremely advanced to pull off the "simple" species culling that is employed in the story. As a plot point, the billions of years background isn't necessary at all. Putting it in raises those nasty questions about just what these aliens are like, and why they act so stupid :-) Younger alien races are more believable at making stupid decisions, limited in power.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 05:06:58 GMT
"Garys Muses Sockpuppet" <romancesfool@aol.complainer> wrote in message news:20020815122011.18294.00000538@mb-mk.aol.com ...
The population scientist was much too important a dignitary to be summoned by a lowly commanding officer over the intercom.
This did not necessarily imply that they had significant enemies. They could have merely been dealing with a pirate or a smuggler. There was no battle mentioned, just a pursuit and a termination.
The text specifically states that they were in hyperspace when the data was received. They were already in route to the planet and the fifty hours refers to the time that the population scientist had been in possession of the data, not to how long they had been traveling. I'm sorry but my limited understanding of the general and special theories of relativity aren't what they should be. I do understand that when a 'starship' in a science fiction scene is said to be in hyperspace it is usually understood that the vessel is traveling faster than light. Naturally this implies that the normal rules of the space-time continuum, as we understand them are skewed. We have no way of knowing where or how far away the ship was when it started for earth, nor do we know how long it was traveling. All we know is that fifty-year-old data was received fifty hours ago.
If I indicated that the mission was high priority I certainly didn't intend to and I can't seem to find it. I will add a word or two to clarify.
The first site that I checked after googling for "age of earth" said. - The generally accepted age for the Earth and the rest of the solar system is about 4.55 billion years (plus or minus about 1%) - I googled for the 'beginning of life on earth' and found a common estimate was between 3.9 - 3.5 billion years ago. I think that my time frame is certainly within those parameters. If these dates are incorrect I would appreciate you telling me exactly when earth was formed and when life began. I will change the dates in the story to match. For obvious reasons I was not using the timeframe of creationist theory.
It took 22 hours to decide that the new procedure would be used. It took twenty days to infect the population and select the survivors.
This is specious for two reasons:
1. This wasn't their first project. They already had a handle on how long it would take. They certainly didn't need to come by and peek at the dinosaurs.
2. Nothing was mentioned about this being the only visit to the experiment, it was just the last so far.
What did you expect sweetie, an ice cream cone. This is ASSD. I don't think the D is for Disney. Even though Bradly Stoke was kind enough to mention me in the same sentence with Tolstoy, Emile Zola, and Dostoevsky, you did realize that he was just fucking with me didn't you?
I've already pointed out that you misread the time frame for decision and selection. They are going to terminate 98% of the population. Why should they bother with sorting out the right and wrong of who is imprisoned by civilizations that are going to be destroyed anyway? The numbers are simply not significant. They aren't some bunch of super referees that came to make things right. They've come to make things dead, as an experiment some few are going to be left alive.
What is silly is thinking that they would care who did what in a system that they are going to get rid of. Power tripping politicians don't mean shit to them. No one that presided over or organized or protected the civilization will even be considered for survival. It isn't arbitrary at all. All policemen, all military men, all politicians, all religious leaders and all business leaders will die. Nothing arbitrary about it, they are all toast.
Then what was the term for what happened at Chornobyl? I'll switch to that one.
They don't trust anything to the drone. For this chapter it is there only to schedule the terminations and then to gather data that until the aliens signal it for a report later. No oversight is needed, if the survivors aren't up to speed in five hundred years they are dead too.
The helmsman set the course after verbal orders because I wanted Ergit to have the opportunity to say "Engage". That is not negotiable.
Need in one hand, shit in the other. "Red and Victor" was posted for the first time on 27 Jan 1998. It was just the first chapter then and I expanded it later. When Jack reached east Texas and found the first house I realized that the perfect house for him was outside Ft Worth. I let the virus kill Bill and Jackie and I let Jack find Shelly and Sarah and the rest is the rest of NanoVirus so far. This is all far from the scope of the chapter that we are discussing.
Interesting.
Thanks for taking your time to read and comment on NanoVirus. And thank you for your diligent effort in trying to make it seem as childish and trivial as possible. I only regret that you resorted to some type of subterfuge to do it and that you didn't have the balls to post as yourself.
cmsix
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:00:21 -0700
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 05:06:58 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> held forth, saying:
<the vorpal blade and the snicker-snack thing, yes?>
??????????????????????????
Subterfuge? "Garys Muses Sockpuppet" is subterfuge???
Is someone here truly that big a naif? Yikes.
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it." - G.B. Shaw
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 18 Aug 2002 09:26:08 GMT
In article <SXF79.10302$LO1.802942@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> writes:
Okay. I've not responded in this Tank for a couple of reasons (primarily time constraints - gads, I hate moving, and summer school started this week, excuse, excuse, excuse), but I'm going to step in for a moment here. There were some good things about this story. I happen to like the idea of wiping out 98% of the population. Where exactly do I pick up the application to be on that selection committee? I also sort of like the idea of the human race being an alien-race experiment. It explains one of my cow-workers a bit <g> (doesn't make me like her any more, but it explains her).
The author has said somewhere earlier in the FT thread that he fully intended this to be a stroke story. A fantasy. After all, this is alt.SEX.stories.d, right? Many readers look to assm for the "story" part of that, but more probably look to it for the Sex part. And, as the author has pointed out, most of his fans are from Stories Online, not from assm/assd. Lazeez has repeatedly pointed out that the average SO reader seems to mostly want inc/nc/mc/stroke stories. I think that perhaps it's important to keep that audience in mind when responding to this story. This story is geared towards that audience that reads sex stories solely for the sex. They want trivial stories. That's what stroke is about. Screw motivation. Screw heavy science. Screw timelines and details and background and resolution. Those things fog up the mental images. Screw. Just screw. A lot.
However, it IS being posted to ASSD and the ASSD community as part of a writer's workshop. The Fish Tank has always been about helping to make better stories. And it has succeeded (IMHO) in every single instance. The readers and participants of the FT have, across the board, found something good to say about the stories, and something that could make the story better. Not once has someone said, "Nope. Sorry. There's no hope at all for this one. Disconnect the hoses, turn off the machines, and let it die, please." That doesn't mean that an author has to accept ALL of the suggestions. Goodness no, of course not. But if a writer isn't interested in taking suggestions beyond, "here's a missed comma," the story doesn't belong in the tank. Q.E.D.
First of all, "subterfuge" is a bit strong. Gary's name is on this post. He could have posted it with his normal e-mail address in the response line, but he quite often posts from "Muse's Sockpuppet." I can't for the briefest of moments honestly think that he was trying to trick anyone at all. The "two and two" guidelines for the Tank (iirc, of course) are suggestions to keep one person from 'hogging' all of the more obvious suggestions. The points that Gary was bringing up are very valid. Cmsix does have another story out there that seems to relate to this one. Gary felt that it would enhance the plot to this story. So he suggested that it be incorporated. Yes, "Red and Victor" itself wasn't in the Tank, but Gary was aware of it and made an honest suggestion.
Cmsix has spent quite a bit of this thread "explaining" the aliens. The readers of the Tank aren't idiots. If it needs that much explaining, then perhaps explaining it to readers won't hurt. Who knows, it might even pick up a few extra readers. Those people who said to themselves, "the timelines here are distracting and don't make sense," might stay and read more if it DOES make sense.
Now, let me see if I understand this correctly. This story (as I've read it so far) involves an alien civilization which has decided that the earth's population no longer merits continued existence. So they introduce a 'virus' to wipe out 98% of the population, leaving a male to female ratio of 1:4 and keeping only the females who have huge breasts, tight pussies, softly rounded hips (because, of course, those are the only ones who are "robustly healthy"), and are undeniably, unbearably sexually attracted to the men (well, to Jack at least) left on earth, regardless of the looks or personality or intelligence or conversational skills that those men possess. None of these women look at the remaining men and say, "hmmm, no. I'll just stick with the women, TYVM." They're all bisexual, right? ALL of them. And the few holdouts are 'converted' to bisexuality by the sheer force of Jack's sexual abilities. They just hadn't met the right man, right?
Are you sure that it's Gary who was making it seem childish? ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/ Celebrating the Events of ASSD/ASSM/ASSTR: http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/HIA_Events.htm The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:32:17 GMT
Thank your for taking your time to read this chapter of NanoVirus and for commenting on it and commenting on the comments about it.
"Alexis Siefert" <alexisinalaska@aol.communicate> wrote in message news:20020818052608.03599.00000067@mb-fk.aol.com ...
Goodness no,
Then why do it? He'd already made a comment with the name I recognized. I haven't been here long and using "find" for his Sockpuppet name revealed two post out of the 2500 non spam messages that my newsreader shows for this group found only two post with it and both were to this thread. Searching Google for Garys, Muses, or Sockpuppets messages revealed no other messages using this name in 2002. What was I to think? That the benevolent Garys Muses Sockpuppte wanted to help me so bad that he appeared from nowhere to comment on portions of the story that weren't even in the chapter that everyone could read. Suggesting that I had written another 360k of text and tried to disguise it since it clearly went nowhere without this story, which began fully four years after it began. It doesn't even appear in NanoVirus until chapter twelve.
The "two and
Honest suggestions are hard to take from a dishonest quarter.
Most of the explanation was required for Gary and for Garys Muses Sockpuppet. Both of whom complained about the timeline, which as I pointed out is perfectly acceptable unless you are a creationist.
Gary Jordan said:
Garys Muses Sockpuppet said:
1. Make the aliens believable.
Gary Jordan said:
There just didn't seem to be any allowance for people exactly like Jack, but who happened to be policemen or soldiers at the time of the virus. The selection was TOO arbitrary.
Garys Muses Sockpuppet said:
Now, there's a logical criteria for elimination. Granted, a lot of politicians are on a power trip, but can't this intelligent virus determine those who serve and protect? Arbitrary and silly.
He not only took an extra turn under a different name, he repeated the same suggestion. What am I missing here?
I'm missing the fact that Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet have the same complaints with the story and don't even bother to mention that they're repeating at all, much less mention that one is repeating the other, even though they are both the same person.
No one else mentioned difficulty with the timeline. Maybe they felt it would be repeating Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet.
That's just the point. The timeline does make sense, but since you have seen both Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet complain about it, and since you already know Gary Jordan, and Garys Muses Sockpuppet, and since I called his hand on it, and since you were too tired to bother with me until I did, you automatically assume that Gary is right and that I'm wrong, so you'll just jump in here and take up for Gary and his Muses Sockpuppet. Now you get the added advantage of sounding right whether you took the time to investigate the timeline or not, and Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet get your opinion to back up their claim.
intelligence or
And how do you know this? Karen is the only woman that is described in the chapter that I submitted to the "Fish Tank". Sexual preferences aren't discussed in it. Bisexuality is not mentioned. Did you break out of your justifiable fatigue and go read the other 1400k of the story so you could make your own decision? Or did you take Gary Jordan's and Garys Muses Sockpuppet's judgment for your own. I guess when you read it you also didn't notice that it just might have been poking fun at itself and at most stories like it without putting in the non-existent parody code that has become all the rage lately. But of course I couldn't be good enough to do something like that could I. After all I didn't even know that Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet were one and the same. I was so stupid that I thought you weren't suppoesed to repeat the comments you had just finished making yourself. I'm obviously too stupid to even be posting on ASSD since Gary and his Muses Sockpuppet don't approve.
And now, of course I've offended Alexis Siefert, who didn't have time to read and comment on my submission until I tread on Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet.
You're right of course, it was childish of me to think that an outsider would get the same respect that a regular member of this group would get. I knew better than to comment on Garys Muses Sockpuppets duplicity. I knew what to expect and you didn't disappoint me. Rally round the periscope and let's all take up for Gary and his Muses Sockpuppet. How dare that cmsix expect equal treatment or any treatment at all. I wouldn't even have given his submission a cursory glance if he hadn't whined about Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Sockpuppet taking both their rightful turns to complain about the same things and make fun of his characters that couldn't possibly mean a thing him. Why he's just writing stroke stories and he doesn't even post them on ASSM.
Sorry to cut this short but I see that denny has jumped to Gary Jordan's and Garys Muses Sockpuppet's defense.
Thank you again for taking your time, especially considering you time restraints, to read this chapter of NanoVirus and to give me your opinion on how I could improve it.
cmsix
From: Shon Richards
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:16:37 GMT
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:5BL79.10287$I6.874286@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
The respect that a regular member would get is kind of a small value around here. :) Really, some days I think its safer to be a new person than a regular.
Well, it did seem a bit odd. I mean, I didn't think you could possibly be confused on his identity but there was always that chance. A good rule of thumb in newsgroups is to not use sarcasm. Yes, its funny but sometimes people aren't sure if you re being serious or not.
Okay, is this a feud-thing? See, sometimes people aren't aware of the feuds that may boil around the group and people just comment on the part of the feud they see. If you and Gary are having a feud, then go out to the playground and settle it.
Yeah, friends are bastards that way. They tend to rush in when the naughty language goes flying.
I am greatly intrigued by your parody statement on Nanovirus. I was under the impression it was a stroke-story on a Grand Scale. I didn't think it was a parody. I'll feel stupid if it was.
I am also curious how many women have written in to say they liked it. So far it seems to be mostly male-centric and I think it might have inspired the more harsher statements from Alexis. I told my wife the plot to this story and the frown on her face was priceless. Maybe women get offended when they are told they will be spared from death and doom so their chests can get bigger and they can be breeding partners for a new race.
Shon Richards
A good portion of my stories can be found at my never-finished website at http://www.asstr.org/~ShonRichards/ All of them can be found through ftp at http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/ShonRichards/
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:52:07 GMT
Shon
Jack has by now acquired over two hundred women to screw and impregnate. He has a mind control technique that only requires him to penetrate the victim's cervix and wiggle her clit rapidly to make her: orgasm to unconsciousness and wake up madly in love with him and completely under his control, not be a bit jealous of any of the other two hundred regular women and the four or five thousand spares that are at his disposal, and willing to kill and die for him. They all arrive for breakfast dressed only in a long T-shirt and wait anxiously for their good morning kiss and inspection, (that's a grin and an elbow to your ribs there about the inspections Shon, get it, know what I mean). Don't you think that it might be poking just a little fun at itself and others like it? Probably not, it's all perfectly believable that some dumbass hick down in Texas would think people would believe this kind of thing. Hell Shon, I didn't even have to start it out with "You ain't gonna believe this shit."
It was just a coincidence that every woman had big titties, a tight pussy and was startlingly beautiful. Everyone knows how much fun and what a turn on it is to sit at the typewriter for hours trying to think of another way to say "I put this there and she kissed that and nibbled this."
I don't know if Gary Jordan or Garys Muses Sockpuppet wanted a feud or not. It doesn't really matter anymore does it? He managed to nit pick the aliens for his own reasons until people are suggesting I read up on Nano Technology (which is not even mentioned in the story anywhere except for the Nano in the name of the virus) and they want me to figure out how to get the spacemen to learn to use an intercom to call the main man so they won't have to send a crewman. I can tell you Shon that it just wasn't that much trouble for the crewman to go get the main man. It didn't make him feel used at all. They didn't ask him to get them a cup of coffee or anything.
Thanks for actually believing, if only for a second or two, that I might not have spent three months and typed in 1450k of strictly stroke. I couldn't have been poking fun though Shon, Gary Jordan and Garys Muses Stockpuppet have read the whole thing and they would have noticed.
cmsix
"Shon" <shonrichardshsd@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:FeM79.10567$LO1.842935@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
From: Shon Richards
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 01:42:10 GMT
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:XLM79.10352$I6.882882@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
Probably not, it's all perfectly
Your hostility is cute. I notice in your response to other people's posts that you keep bringing up that you're from Texas and we think you are a hick. Since you don't include as a signature that you are "cmsix, a dumb hick from texas", I would stop being paranoid about it. I'm from North Carolina and when people think I suck, I don't blame my state even though no one would blame me :)
Ohhhhhhhhh. See, this is where we have confusion. I write stories that I find fun. I couldn't imagine writing stories that are not fun for me to write. Why do you do it?
Shon Richards
A good portion of my stories can be found at my never-finished website at http://www.asstr.org/~ShonRichards/ All of them can be found through ftp at http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/ShonRichards/
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:41:10 -0600
On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 01:42:10 GMT, "Shon" <shonrichardshsd@earthlink.net> wrote:
Or wherever else we're from. Hicks live all over ;-)
As for believability, part of what makes a story good can be the ability to believe in it, even if the events are unlikely. When there are inconsistencies within its own structure and big holes left for questions, people can wonder.
It may not affect the sexual enjoyment of the reading. But intellectually it can be rather important. And I do think that Fish Tank pays more attention to the thinking sides of things.
Maybe it may seem odd too, but when I write that is where my effort tends to be at. The sensual, sexual elements come when thinking up the story, dreaming about it, figuring out what I want to write about. When I go to put words on the screen or paper, I am more aware of the sytle and structure, less of the feel. I hope that I get the emotions across, the details right, and don't confuse the reader too much.
Having an editor helps with that, but the writer still needs to get the basic elements down right.
cmsix may have been joking, I don't know. I find writing about the details of sex interesting, and in RL practice find the various ways things aren't the same each time exciting. Maybe some people have more boring sex lives, and I do think it is all too easy to go on and on about the sex. But if it is interesting, why not?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Tenyari
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:44:11 GMT
Yeah, It's a blast.
A close friend of mine who's been a published Lesbian Erotica writer since the 80's says she can't stop breaking down into giggles whenever she gets to that point.
I half agree, though I try for a more serious approach. I still find it quite fun.
Haven't put up any of my graphic sex yet, but it was fun writing it anyway.
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ). If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it was about a girl and a half.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 21:48:20 -0600
On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:44:11 GMT, tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
I don't know. If you're trying for the outrageous purple porn prose sex, then yes, trying to do that is funny. If you take it more seriously, I think that the lust-driven writing tends not to provoke giggles. Something alone the lines of it being OK to laugh with your lover in bed, but not AT your lover ;-)
I think I've written some of that :-) How graphic does it have to be in order to count?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: celia batau
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:33:53 -0700
hi cmsix!
we think that what you say is just as important as anyone else says. but assd, and esp the fishtank, seem more geared toward building stories, and maybe in this case, your story was maybe misunderstood maybe?
we think you were right about the timeline. the sun is five billion years old. the earth is four and a half. one billion of those years involved the cooling of the planet and the long space where only single-celled organisms thrived.
we liked the story and hope that we or anyone else didn't sound too harsh. we're just rtrying to help. :)
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
Everybody jumping jumping
Everybody dancing now
Ay Mama
Que sabrosa tu estás
-Rabanes
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:5BL79.10287$I6.874286@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:52:04 -0700
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:32:17 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> held forth, saying:
Nope. denny is well aware that Gary, his muse, and the muse's sockpuppet don't require my help.
Several things struck me, though, and I condensed them into one very short post. I'll expand here.
(1) YOU sent the story to Desdmona for FishTank critiquing, yes? You're not the first FT participant who has received the type of critique Gary gave through his "Muse's Sockpuppet" nym - you're just the first to react as you've done.
(2) "Garys Muses Sockpuppet" is pretty damn transparent - especially as there is Google available. Gary's never pretended that the Muse's sockpuppet wasn't him; you're comparatively new to ASSD, so hadn't seen any of those posts before. So? Is it 'subterfuge' if I change my 'from' field to call myself "Denny on Sunday"?
(3) Evidently - based on Lazeez's 'Top Twenty' list - "Nanovirus" is very popular with the readership at StoriesOnline. How nice for you. May I respectfully remind you that 'popular' and 'well-written' aren't necessarily synonymous? Clearly they can both be said of some stories - Al Steiner's two novels come to mind, as do a number of other works. But for 'popular' - probably the most popular story posted to the ASS* groups in at least the last 4 years is "Call Girl Cheerleaders."
Here's part of what MichaelD said about its writing: "5) Pander to the Most Common Fetishes
Three words here: Blonde. Teenage. Cheerleader.
When I first began work on CGC, I wanted a setting that would pander as shamelessly as possible to what I thought were the most popular fetishes. While writing as MichaelD, I had made a point of studiously avoiding cliches even as I focused largely on what might be euphemistically referred to as "emerging sexuality." I didn't want to do that with CGC; I wanted to embrace the cliches and breathe life into them. I finally settled on a scenario of a squad of horny teenage cheerleaders doing their best to screw some rich middle-aged guy half to death. "
(the complete post may be found by Googling for "How to Pull in the Mail", poster michaeld38 or here: http://makeashorterlink.com/?R1EB25C81 )
Where I'm trying to go with this paragraph - and I wandered - is that I'm sure you've received a lot of 'strokes' from the readers at Stories Online. "Don't start believing your press clippings." I suspect - I can't speak from the perspective of a fiction writer, as I don't write stories - that one email of negatives is worth more in terms of eventual better writing and storytelling than 25 emails of the "I love it, write more!" kind.
(4) Okay, so you've written an SF-based stroke piece. If you think the criticisms of the SF part were unfair and cruel ('be nice to my baby') you "ain't seen nothing yet." There are a LOT of SF-knowledgeable folk on Usenet, and many of them have very sharp teeth and big nasty claws. You're lucky so far - none of those folk have publicly discussed NV. My point in this paragraph is 'try to make the SF a bit believable.' Or, use a broader brush and make the aliens obviously a joke.
You - based on your posts here over the past few weeks - seem to be a good guy. Right now, you feel attacked. Relax. Nobody's attacking you. (you want to feel attacked? go to a certain newsgroup and comment that [fex] 'women can do nothing to better fulfil themselves than having children' - or even words which can be so construed. Then duck.)
Separate things - criticism of NV, even should the criticism be much harsher than you've received, is NOT an attack on you. You're unhappy with what Gary had to say about it - but note that he's read the whole thing, and he'd read the other story too. Would he have done that if he found it worthless? Not bloody likely, imo.
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it." - G.B. Shaw
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 02:16:28 GMT
dennyw
Thank you for setting me straight. I did submit my chapter to the "Fish Tank" and I welcomed the critiquing. I'm sorry I attacked Garys Muses Sockpuppet for his post. After realizing my error I did google for his earlier post, I guess I'm not really good at using google, I couldn't find any articles by Garys Muses Sockpuppet in any "Fish Tank" thread other than the one I was involved in.
I did find one that was interesting to me.
From: Garys Muses Sockpuppet (romancesfool@aol.complainer)
<large snip, probably an attempt by me to quote out of context>
You can imagine my relief to find that I was obviously "other fun"
cmsix
<dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.invalid> wrote in message news:9nsvlu0kedrmhlnf63c9pm822giec4fvnk@4ax.com ...
From: Bradley Stoke
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 19 Aug 2002 12:56:02 -0700
Denny
You said:
"I suspect—I can't speak from the perspective of a fiction writer, as I don't write stories—that one email of negatives is worth more in terms of eventual better writing and storytelling than 25 emails of the "I love it, write more!" kind."
I can't claim to be one of ASSD's most popular writers on Stories OnLine or anywhere else, so I don't know how representative my experience of feedback might be, but I certainly wouldn't say that one negative e-mail is worth more than 25 positive ones. I can see where you're coming from. The idea is that most readers only want to give praise, and only a few would stick their neck out to criticise one's stories. It certainly corresponds to my practise. I only write feedback when I've liked something and I only give a vote for a story if it's a good one.
However, my stories seem to have gained a very mixed reaction. Although, I get my share of praise (and some has been very nice indeed), I also attract some quite negative feedback and some negative votes. Whatever it is that distinguishes my stories, they certainly rile a substantial minority of sex fiction readers. However, I've yet to discern any real pattern in the criticism. It's not like they all say I don't write well. No one's said that. Or that I feature sexual activity that is upsetting (which I don't very much). Or anything consistent like that. It's as if every person who's hated my stories to the extent of rushing off an e-mail has found something distinct and unexpected to take offence at.
The only consistency I've noticed amongst my negative feedback, however, is a strange predilection for writing e-mails entirely in upper case, a total inability to spell and an insensitive tendency to be abusive to my person and my sexual identity. Oh! And they're always anonymous. If csmsix's negative feedback was of the same nature as that which I receive, I would suggest he press the delete button rather than attempt to learn from them.
Bradley Stoke
http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke
From: oosh
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:04:48 +0000 (UTC)
bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley Stoke) wrote in news:aaacc8d6.0208191156.4d8aacf9@posting.google.com:
Grim! I've not yet had to endure that annoyance. Just a matter of time, probably.
O.
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:30:23 GMT
On 19 Aug 2002 12:56:02 -0700, bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley Stoke) wrote:
Well, of course when I said 'email of negatives' I didn't mean the mirror-image of "I love it!" - I meant the kind of things that are written as 'things to improve' in the FT.
Though I agree - if I write feedback to someone about a story, it's generally praise. Assuming it's not a regular correspondent; those I will write to critically - as I probably would most authors who are regulars on ASSD. However, in those cases, I'd no doubt be writing both 'this is good' and 'this could be better' type stuff. I hope. (I'm naturally critical)
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:41:01 -0600
On 19 Aug 2002 12:56:02 -0700, bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley Stoke) wrote:
Criticism, at least somewhat intelligent criticism, can be useful. I kind of like a bit of an introduction from a correspondent before getting into hard criticism, and tend to try to do that myself. Say a few nice things, maybe a couple things which could be done differently, but nothing heavy at first.
A good editor friend can be a lot rougher, and not annoy me so much. A stranger doing the same, out of the blue, may take a while to get the same respect.
I definitely think that being a bit polite to them, on the order of "Thanks for writing, and I'm glad you enjoyed reading my story enough to respond" sort of thing, is OK.
But don't get bogged down in a flame email dialog. I don't know if that would happen, anon mailers often can't be responded to.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Tenyari
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:38:59 GMT
On 19 Aug 2002 12:56:02 -0700, bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley Stoke) wrote:
I've only been given three negative feedbacks so far (I'm new enough, and only have a few stories out there). They all had the same pattern:
anonymous
about race
totally misunderstood some racial minority missed the fact that they referred to something not in my story.
For example, somebody sending me an email blaming rap music for all the problems with blacks. Never mind my story having no references to rap, and a Native American lead character.
Still, I attempt to address some of them anyway: http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=2432067#post2432067
Even when they're really bad, they can get you going ...
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ). If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it was about a girl and a half.
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 18 Aug 2002 21:20:12 GMT
In article <5BL79.10287$I6.874286@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> writes:
To be fair, I read the first 20 or so chapters back in June and early July over at Stories Online.
<snip>
Denny does a fine job of addressing many of the things you bring up here, so I'll defer to his post instead of repeating.
<snip for bandwidth>
to
You bring up a very interesting point here. The chapter of NanoVirus that you sent to the Fish Tank is the very first chapter in a story that is now (iirce) well over 30 chapters long. I'm guessing that most (if not all) of the readers of ASSD and the FT were aware that NanoVirus is an extremely long and extremely popular story already, and because we know that there's another 30+ chapters, there's no way to honestly respond to this as though it were a complete story. I'm sure that many of the FT readers/responders had already read quite a bit of NV - especially with it's June SC win and (at the time) it's status as a July finalist (if I've got my timing correct, it hadn't been announced as the July winner until after most of the responses had been made). Additionally, in your responses to the comments, you bring up that many of the concerns and questions were addressed in later chapters. Given that you've got this story out there, I think it's perfectly reasonable for readers to take it as part of a whole. If they're aware of the rest of the story, then their comments (such as Gary's suggestion about the 'Red' story) are possibly even more applicable.
No, there wasn't any right or wrong implied in my comments, and I'm sorry if you inferred that I was calling you "wrong." What I was pointing out was simply that MANY of the responses involved the aliens. Gary wasn't the only person who commented about either the science in the "science fiction" or about the aliens and their part. As authors our stories make perfect sense - to US. Of course they do, we wrote them. We know what we intended. We know what we were trying to convey. Part of the point of projects like the Fish Tank is to ensure that we've painted our vision in clear strokes. Otherwise, you need a proofer to catch typos, not a workshop to discuss plot elements.
And, the "too tired to bother with me" is just whiny. One thing about being in the Tank is that you can't expect everyone to respond to every story. We all respond when we can and when we're so inclined. I'm sure that most writers would rather have 5 thought-out, detailed responses, than a dozen 4-sentence replies.
Again, you assume that the only place anyone has read your story is when it was first posted to the Fish Tank. NV has been around for longer than the week it's appeared here.
Or did you take Gary Jordan's and Garys Muses
I am sorry that you took it that way. I don't see anywhere where anyone has called you stupid or has shown you any disrespect anywhere in ASSD. There have been several stories posted to the tank by first time ASSD'ers. You're not an outsider, you're not exactly a brandnewcomer to ASSD. You've been participating in threads, and you've been treated just like anyone else in the Tank, and you've been afforded the same respect as any other ASSD participant. Your story was read (your entire story in many instances, not just this portion), and the responders made honest observations, both on things to keep and things that, in their opinion, could be improved.
It's been said time and time again that stories are a bit like our children. It's very hard to accept crticism without taking it personally. Nothing said by any of the responders was personal towards you. You brought it into that arena with your comments about subterfuge and lacking balls.
Alexis
(not offended in the least)
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/ Celebrating the Events of ASSD/ASSM/ASSTR: http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/HIA_Events.htm The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 01:36:50 GMT
"Garys Muses Sockpuppet" <romancesfool@aol.complainer> wrote in message news:20020815122011.18294.00000538@mb-mk.aol.com ...
<large snip for clarity>
From:
http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=subterfuge
1 : deception by artifice or stratagem in order to conceal, escape, or evade 2 : a deceptive device or stratagem
Which was all completely needless. I asked to be in the "Fish Tank" for comments, constructive or otherwise.
I will admit I didn't expect to be the butt of a private joke, which was plainly apparent to everyone else.
Thank you again for taking your time to explain this all to me.
cmsix
"Alexis Siefert" <alexisinalaska@aol.communicate> wrote in message news:20020818172012.11247.00000059@mb-df.aol.com ...
Additionally, in
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:33:19 -0600
On 18 Aug 2002 09:26:08 GMT, alexisinalaska@aol.communicate (Alexis Siefert) wrote:
Knowing that there are aliens around and they've made people the way they are makes a lot of things make sense. Just have to watch out for the men in black suits, once you know about this part. Oh, sorry, too late ...
I do think that on ASSM there are lots of fans of such stories too. ASSD writers are maybe more picky about things, because we think and talk about writing and writing styles a lot. Plus maybe we read more things than just sex stories ;-)
Well, some things to think about. One, though maybe Cmsix hasn't seen Gary's "Muse's Sockpuppet" posts before, I've seen it often. It wasn't a subterfuge as I saw it; in fact, I didn't think of it as being anything other than Gary posting. People who have multiple posting names often mess up which one gets used. You don't even see it on the outgoing post, not in many news apps.
Gary has read the story through, and is a fan. One can be a fan of a series and still admit that there are plot holes or other problems. Posting a story to the Fishtank is asking for comments on those problems.
A SF fan simply can't ignore science and logic issues. So if you write a science fiction story, you're begging such fans to pick apart any technical mistakes. Anyone who doesn't think that should hang around any SF fan discussion groups ;-) I mean, top star writers have this issue, so why shouldn't some brand new writer face the same problem?
As I mentioned, and others did, it doesn't kill the story but it does require you to discount the talk of the aliens. Most of the tale doesn't revolve around them anyway.
But since their explanation of things is the opening stage of the story, developed for a few pages (5 or 6), and is, I'd guess, intended to be taken seriously, doesn't it make sense to try to make the situation very clear?
One note is that a SF fan knows what NanoVirus means in science fiction terms, and if the actual agent is something else, it is confusing. Not that TV and movie writing gets things very correct either. But a sensible goal should be to try to lay out the SF tech and logic as well as you can. If you cannot explain things well, not explaining them is the safer alternative.
Again, I can ignore the whole intro, and didn't make much technical comment on it at all in my own response to the story. I felt that the story flow (ignoring science issues) would work better with interleaving alien discussion between scenes in the Earthly tale, but I was willing to accept that the aliens had really strange behavior and logic (or illogic).
We've seen illogical aliens in SF all the time, esp. on TV. As the aliens in NanoVirus are only a plot device to set up the sex situations, and aren't a big chunk of the story, if you read on any issues with them fade away.
But they make up a third of this first part of the story. That makes them a big deal to the reader.
One thing is that if the aliens seem stupid or incompetent or illogical, the reader may decide that reading on is pointless. Good aliens should inspire some other response than laughter, unless you're going for the humorous sorts (like the Martians in "Spaced Invaders," who invade Earth by mistake ... and get into a LOT of trouble).
Haven't read the rest of the whole story, but it seems that the alien magic made Jack capable of doing it like that. As a stroke story, that can work; (mc) stories often involve that kind of overwhelming personality and sexual ability.
There are also a certain percentage of men which, even presented with dozens of females, would have no desire for them whatsoever. Again, not having read the story I don't know if any of those appear either. Maybe the NV killed off everyone with no interest in reproductive sex?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Mat Twassel
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 15 Aug 2002 17:52:50 GMT
Suggestions:
1. Fix the tags. Most of them could be dropped. For the ETs consider a play-style format:
Ergit: I assume that if no progress has been made ...
Inglan: That has usually been our policy; however, ...
2.The POV switch in the On Earth section is really jarring. I don't think you need the introductory section at all. Just start out with Jack Parson's telling us his side of things.
What works:
1. Good hook. But I wonder if we need the ET section at all. Really hard to say without knowing what is planned down the line. Is there going to be direct interaction between Jack and the ETs?
2. Good sex scene. I did find the getting there a little wordy and sometimes confusing. I can't say any of it seemed ultra-real, and that might matter in the long run. But it was fun.
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 01:14:41 GMT
Thank you for taking the time to read this chapter of NanoVirus and for commenting on it. I know that it is sometimes boring to read other peoples work, especially if it might not normally appeal to you. Your time and comments are appreciated.
cmsic
"mat twassel" <mmtwassel@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020815135250.20532.00000527@mb-fa.aol.com ...
I don't understand this. Are you suggesting I drop the use of normal dialog punctuation?
I'm sorry but I just don't believe that will work at all. Besides I had fun with Ergit and Inglan and enjoyment is all I get out of this.
Jack discovers that the aliens are the cause of the sickness in chapter twenty-nine. But there's no direct interaction yet. I don't use an outline or plan so I don't know if or when they will come into direct contact. Considering what happened on this visit, I doubt he will do anything to invite them back.
Hey, if it slides by without someone cursing me for it I take it as a good sign.
Thanks again for reading it and commenting.
cmsix
From: Mat Twassel
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 18 Aug 2002 03:19:36 GMT
cmsix writes:
Yes and no. You should probably learn what is normal for dialog punctuation. "Blah, blah, blah," he said. Not: "Blah, blah, blah." He said. But my suggestion had more to do with making the tags painless to read. Don't identify the speaker with a tag if the identity of the speaker is obvious. Resist the urge to use verbs beyond "said" and "asked." Resist the urge to use adverbs to indicate how something is said. Of course there are exceptions. In the case of the ETs, I also had problems picturing them. Do they speak English? It seemed to me that using the play format might make them more ET-like. Are we supposed to think of them as people, or what?
That's good. If you're having fun, that's the main thing. I didn't find much entertainment value in Ergit and Inglan as characters, and having heard that these ETs don't reappear for dozens of chapters, I believe more than ever that you should bury them. Instead, do more to show the effects of their plot. That way the reader is guessing along with the hero. If you do it right, you should be able to reveal everything that's important without incurring the wrath of all the sci-fi experts who have pointed out the myriad of failures in this opening. In other words, I think it has more potential as a mystery/adventure than as a simple adventure.
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Tenyari
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:11:54 GMT
On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:10:59 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote:
You're detailed, which is good.
The core idea is interesting.
The character gets a lot of attention in terms of personality and background.
The dialog has too many monologs. Shorten it and make it more natural. Most of us don't give speeches when we talk. We say brief bursts, change our subject midway through, and so on.
"I saw you turn down eight out of ten guys before me." "Really?" she smiled back "You were watching that long?"
[We'll ignore how creepy it might be for a guy to do that ... :) ]
"Nancy said she'd seen you leave with a guy maybe three times in the last year. Hey, nice dress ..."
etc ...
If what you have to say takes more than 2 seconds, there's a good chance something will break it apart unless you're in front of a podium.
The science and the aliens have real problems with believability. And were somewhat jarring. The sort of thing that drops you out of the story at times. I suggest reading some fiction in the post cyberpunk genre to get a feel for nano technology and societies that use it. Your stories features aliens who have gone way beyond that, if they've been around so long and travel the stars, so they should be beyond it.
In this chapter the integration of the two sections was not very smooth. I was reading this long thing about aliens and then suddenly I'm in a whole different movie. The POV switch in the second part exasperated this.
I've used short scenes of other moments in my own work. You have to keep it short. A few paragraphs at most. Some of mine may stretch the limit on this as well. Sometimes you can put in a bleed-in between the two points.
I wonder what effect the timing of posting this to fish tank had on the Silver Clitoride results.
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ). If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it was about a girl and a half.
From: Mat Twassel
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 15 Aug 2002 21:30:12 GMT
Tenyari writes:
Could be. Actually I didn't question it. Or to put it another way, I found that section as credible as the sex section. But follow my suggestion (drop the aliens to the background) and you solve all the science credibility problems!
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 01:42:15 GMT
tenyari
Thanks for reading this chapter and for takint your time to comment on it.
"tenyari" <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:g9unluglb45cm2ijee7ao30h240l2spfcn@4ax.com ...
I agree it might be creepy but I've seen others doing the same thing. Of course I've never been guilty.
I do get long winded and I will try to shorten my speeches.
They were intended to be jarring.
I suggest reading some fiction in the post cyberpunk
Nano Technology isn't an important part of the story. Nano was just a buzzword I used in the title and with the aliens. Details of the technology aren't important to the first 1400k of the text.
The change of scene was intended to be abrupt. I am sorry that you were exasperated. I will be looking at the transition to see if I can smooth it out a little.
I had nothing to do with the timing of the chapter's appearance in the "Fish Tank". If you think that this timing gave me some kind of advantage I am sure you are wrong. Unless Gary tells us we'll never know; but I'm willing to bet that I didn't get a single vote from anyone that even knows that the "Fish Tank" or ASSD exist.
was about a girl and a half.
Thank you again for reading this chapter of NanoVirus and for suggesting ways that I can make it better.
cmsix
From: Desdmona
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:20:05 -0400
"tenyari" <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:g9unluglb45cm2ijee7ao30h240l2spfcn@4ax.com ...
Tenyari~
I thought you'd like to know that cmsix submitted his first chapter to the FishTank awhile ago, and had to wait in line just as most authors are having to do of late.
Personally, I see a natural progression of events where he discovered ASSD, discovered the FishTank, and then wanted to submit. He did so. And I added him to the list.
It's a bit unfair to the FishTank and to cmsix to assume anything else.
Des
From: Tenyari
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:23:02 GMT
On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:20:05 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote:
I don't think so.
The timing may have been accidental, but the posting of the story to fishtank in the last week of voting for the Clitorides had to have an effect.
It took my three days to post a response to Fishtank because it took that long to find anything good to say about the first chapter.
No I did not expect my story to win the Clitorides as I did no promotion and it was my first writing effort, but this was the last one I would expect to win it given the other entries.
Given some of the other critiques, I doubt I'm alone in that.
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ). If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it was about a girl and a half.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:29:08 GMT
tenyari:
In the first place I can see why you might think it suspicious. It did show up just before the voting was closed.
On the other hand it showed up in ASSD. No part of NanoVirus has ever been posted to ASSM. Practically none of my normal readers even know about ASSD. I just don't understand how you think that this could have been an advantage for me.
No one that saw it or read it on ASSD in the Fish Tank voted for it. The story has around 3200 regular readers every week. They didn't know it was in the Fish Tank. They don't even know what the "Fish Tank" is. They are the ones that voted for it, just like they did the month before when it wasn't in the fish tank. I'm just guessing here but assume I didn't get as many votes this months as I did last month since the story is getting a little long in the tooth.
Chapter 1 not only got a well deserved chewing up in the Fish Tank, it was the Chapter that got the least interest from the readers. Frankly I don't know how the rest of the story survived the first chapter. The first chapter only gained a StoriesOnline score of 7.8 or thereabouts. The score and the readership only picked up after later chapters.
I'm not trying to say that my readers don't give me an advantage, they do. I'm just trying to tell you that it doesn't have anything to do with the Fish Tank or ASSD.
I hope you understand that the Silver Clitorides are awarded by popular vote. I think that I at least made my thoughts on popular voting plain in NanoVirus since I had the virus kill all those elected that way.
cmsix
"tenyari" <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:t5c7muk68tk8kcdn07o3kfdtnvrpjlfi14@4ax.com ...
was about a girl and a half.
From: Iconoclast
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 05:26:10 GMT
tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote on Wed 21 Aug 2002 08:23:02a
I think cmix responded to that, and I believe him, that storiesonline folks don't use ASSTR much and even less go to ASSD.
I wouldn't have bothered. It was a long story for the Fish Tank, and I know either from the story codes or from reading the first few paragraphs whether I want to comment on something, if I have the time.
Why? Do you think it was worse than all of the others? You are young, so I don't blame you for reading the first part and thinking it was crud. I persevered because I recognized a parody in it. (at least I thought I did.) Many, if not all, of the science fiction stories from the thirties and early forties had that kind of stilted dialogue and style, even the so-called greats like Olaf Stapledon and E.E.(Doc) Smith. In fact, in its social philosophy it had much of the Stapledon style (though not the ideas).
Not alone, but certainly in the minority, as evidenced by the results. Public popularity certainly does not mean "goodness" or quality, but it does mean popularity among those who vote with their hard-earned money to buy and read books they enjoy. But then, critical literary acclaim does not mean quality either. Look at the Nobel prizes for literature for the last 100 years. Only a few of the writers who won the Nobel had any kind of popularity with the general public. And, ipso facto, they lost in the big picture. They failed to communicate and arouse emotion in the great unwashed, and so their place in history is a prize award rather than continuing relevance.
Iconoclast
From: Tenyari
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:19:45 GMT
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 05:26:10 GMT, Iconoclast <kreisthornNOSPAM@shaw.caNADA> wrote:
I'm young? How young am I and what gave you this impression. I'd wager I have more years on me than 50-70% of the people here.
I'm a new writer here, but that != young.
I persevered through the chapter put in FT, and had real trouble finding anything of merit. The whole chapter needs a rewrite and the reasons why have been well addressed here.
True. Daniele Steele and Steven King (spelling unsure on both names) are among the top selling authors in modern 'literature'. But are they any good?
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ). If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it was about a girl and a half.
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 02:26:28 -0700
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:19:45 GMT, tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
two ells in her first name, otherwise right on.
Can't speak to DS; King can write, and some of his stuff is quite well-written. I still think well of Carrie; I do believe that some of SK's later stuff was written to formula. (bleahhhh)
NB: I'm often not at all fond of "literary" fiction. I like reading stories that are well-told.
From: Altan
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 22 Aug 2002 12:06:13 -0700
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:23:12 GMT, tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message <o40amuo25g4vcm0r6ss3h5q5pk6dk6q073@4ax.com>:
Huh? I know it's none of my business, but ... with a popular election, isn't trying to get votes the whole idea?
The way I personally see it, every author is free to put up links to the award site. If they draw people to the site, specially if some of these start reading some of the other stories, all the better for all of us. We want people to read our work, don't we?
Just my 2c. worth ...
A.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:00:37 -0600
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:19:45 GMT, tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes. There are better writers, but being able to tell a story with style and creativity and, for the most part, logical consistency, makes them good.
Both also tend to pander to "formula" material, intended to please the mainstream audience. King is somewhat repetitive in themes.
But some writers have no consistency, no good logic, lots of plot holes, and serious issues with continuity in editing.
Movie scripts have even more problems in that regard. Novels based on movies can try to fix those up, but the actual story writing depth in movie scripts tends to be way worse than in successful print novels.
A story can survive a lot of technical weaknesses. But one of the expectations of becoming a successful writer is that you'll learn to overcome them. The fact that a lot of older fiction shows such problems doesn't mean you shouldn't try to avoid it. Modern writing technology makes it easier to edit and revise, and the net result is that you need not be stuck with a story, in print, which has major but fixable flaws.
Same on the net.
My order for posting tends to be usenet, then web. I may revise it a few times on the website, then repost the revision later on usenet. So, even if a story was posted with rough edges, it can get fixed up.
Or you can just learn from your mistakes and move on, doing new stories without repeating them.
NanoVirus's "mistakes" in the first chapter aren't enough to kill interest in the rest. A weak start happens in a lot of novels, and readers can sometimes go past what they don't like, finding the rest to their taste. The whole thing is long enough that a weak beginning doesn't make the entire tale weak.
Still, science fiction writing has evolved over the decades (well, centuries now), and the "modern" style tends to be more demanding on technical issues and logic. Pop "movie" scifi is often bad at that, but print stuff tends to be fairly good at being more than just "space opera." Even in those stories which are intended just as fluff and fun, self-consistency in the science background is sort of a given.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 01:43:20 GMT
Desdmona said:
I don't want to contradict you but you have Wiseguy to blame for my interest in the "Fish Tank" and your own rules to blame for my presence in ASSD.
I visited Wiseguy's site seeking more of his excellent work. There are two other sites mentioned at the top of his site as places that also contained excellent work. I visited both the other sites and on one of the three sites, I can't remember which now, I saw mention of a story being in the "Fish Tank" and I became interested. Naturally I had to visit ASSD to comment on two other stories in the "Fish Tank" before mine was given its dunking.
I won't mention the other two guilty parties by name, but their initials are Dryad and artie.
cmsix
I never use ;) or <g> or other such. If anything I say makes you mad I can assure you that one of the above should probably have been near it.
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:um235vl170b5e2@news.supernews.com ...
From: Shon Richards
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:09:44 GMT
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:ulfdn4e7o5k74@news.supernews.com ...
Negatives-
Hmm. Are these aliens or liberal arts students? Seriously, that kind of blanket classification just cracked me up. All politicians are bad. All religous leaders are bad. Of course they are.
Negative two-
Parsons, Jack Parsons. He's not really much of a character as he is a male-fantasy vehicle. He's rich. He's handsome. He's smart. Oh, and he like guns. Duke Nukem has more personality.
Positives-
I always like "The Stand" as a sexual fantasy. Wipe out the world and watch the sex fly. Its been too long since Al Steiner's Aftermath.
Postive two-
I don't usually read sci-fi sex stories because writers can get hung up on the science and not the sex. That isn't a problem here. At first the scenes with the aliens get slow, but then you remember that this is first and for most a sex story.
Shon Richards
A good portion of my stories can be found at my never-finished website at http://www.asstr.org/~ShonRichards/ All of them can be found through ftp at http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/ShonRichards/
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:34:08 GMT
Shon
Thank your for reading and commenting on NanoVirus. I appreciate the effort.
"Shon" <shonrichardshsd@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:cpX69.4706$LO1.390171@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
I can see that I didn't make this part of the story clear enough. Good or bad isn't a consideration at all. The politicians, religious leaders, military and police aren't judged on merit. They are the civilization and they are terminated to allow for a new one. The civilization is not progressing toward the alien's goal, which is out of system exploration leading to joining the aliens.
If everyone was perfect in the first chapter, where would I have to go with the story. To me, character development requires a starting point and a progression from there.
My first and all time favorite exposure to end of world scenarios was "Alas, Babylon" by Pat Frank first published in 1959. I also liked the stand but always hated all the dead bodies lying around and the damned cars abandoned in the road. I made sure Jack wouldn't have those problems or any nasty radiation fouling up the works. I got so tired of Jessica and Dale that I decided to let Jack kill anyone that even seemed to act like them on first encounter.
Thanks again for reading this chapter of NanoVirus and for taking your time to comment on it and help me improve it.
cmsix
From: Desdmona
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:04:30 -0400
cmsix~
I'm not a sci-fi fan. In fact, if it weren't for this being in the FT, I would have stopped reading after the first few paragraphs. That's more a statement of my preferences than this story. But, I do think the aliens sound preachy. I could almost feel myself dozing like I was sitting in a church pew listening to a monotoned sermon.(Oops, I better listen, he's going to be dead soon) I realize that there needs to be some setup for the virus, but I think most of the details that Ergit and Inglan discuss could be introduced a little at a time as someone else has already suggested.
I think my biggest problem with this story is believability. Let's forget the aliens, because I can almost believe that other life forms exist, but let's talk about Jack Parsons. He's a cliche. He's the perfect postor boy for egotism and when the POV shifts to first person, his ego really stampedes across the page. But the kicker for me with Jack and believability is he's going to have to do some major changing before I can believe he's worthy to be in the 2% that survives.
After 9/11 it's hard for me to believe that the entire US prisons are wiped out, with an estimate of about 5 million people, and Jack grabs his favorite rifle and goes shooting. Sure, they're criminals, but 5 million people and he needs to go shoot, and then heads on down to the local bar? Every millionaire in the world would be glued to their TV if not for humanity reasons, then at least for monetary ones. That many deaths for unexplained reasons has to have an affect on the economy.
Of course this is only chapter 1, so I have no way of knowing if Jack suddenly becomes the good guy, but right now in my way of thinking, he's just as lowly as any politician, preacher, and a moderate percentage of those prisoners. Stick in one redeeming quality. Maybe he does something charitable with some of his money. Maybe he helps little old ladies across the street, or maybe he secretly teaches karate to teenagers from his old neighborhood.
On the other hand, aside from the weak description of nice hair, nice skin, and nice features, Jack's personality is written superbly. He's a good ole' boy from Texas and he sounds like it! His mannerisms and speech are perfect for this type of character. Everything is bigger in Texas, including Jack's wallet, his ego, and his penis. Making him this outrageous works for me. He's got to be bigger than life to counteract the aliens.
The sex in this story is purely stroke, but it has a spark that most stroke stories don't have. It's fun, a lot of fun. And in my mind this may be why this story is so popular.
I'm going to second the opinion about the dialogue. It's full of mini-speeches. Pare it down a little, but don't lose the colloquialisms, they're too much fun!
Thanks cmsix for thinking of the FT. I hope this project helps you in the way you hoped it would.
Des
From: celia batau
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:13:44 -0700
hi Des!
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:ulov4q17p0us6e@news.supernews.com ...
but think about it. :) two percent left of mild unbothersome pleasant ppl left and this guy is loosed upon them. :) he could go right to the top of power for ppl wanting to recreate what they lost, or he could be a plague that destroys everything he touches. :)
possibilities! possibilities! :)
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
utsukushii hoshi ni sumu
utsukushii hitobito
utsukushikute tooi hoshi no
natsukashii hitobito
itsuka boku o
omoidashite.
-Pizzicato Five
From: Gary Jordan
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 16 Aug 2002 11:24:19 GMT
celia said:
hi, Des! hi celia!
That's another thing! Although you don't see the other survivors in this chapter, only two types of males seemed to survive.
Guys like Jack, who (we see later) place the welfare of the group (albeit consisting at first of himself and many large-breasted, tight-pussied horny women) ahead of his own welfare.
Guys who are greedy rapists attempting to accumulate power and women by force.
I think the virus had a few flaws in its programming. That's one of the possibilities.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often." <I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays </I>
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 05:51:25 GMT
"celia batau" <pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:1029474851.378583@news1.bigplanet.com ...
He might even find some beautiful people living on a beautiful star.
cmsix
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 05:46:15 GMT
Desdmona
Thank you for allowing NanoVirus a dunking in the "Fish Tank". Thank you even more for taking the time to read this chapter and comment on it. I understand that it isn't your cup of tea and really appreciate your sharing your knowledge with me.
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:ulov4q17p0us6e@news.supernews.com ...
Thank your for pointing out this mistake on my part.
he was further lucky as he liquidated his hard won stock two months before the bubble burst in two thousand. He was worth twenty-nine million dollars and at twenty-seven years old he had already retired
I should have said that he had twenty-nine million dollars in cash in the bank instead of saying that he was worth twenty-nine million dollars, which can leave the impression that he might still have worries about the stock market, even after I pointed out that he had liquidated his stock. I assume that the boring nature of the opening scene also made you forget that the drone was to provide a calming effect during the terminations.
I'll surely have to redo some of the specifics of the selections process. The aliens are not judging any of the potential survivors on anything but intelligence and physical robustness. Their deeds are as rags. The politicians, religious leaders, business leaders, military and police are not even considered for survival due to their ties to the existing civilization which the aliens perceive as the main fault. I can tell from your comments and the comments of others that I didn't do a good job explaining this.
Jack is shallow and self-aggrandizing here to make it easier to develop him later.
Thanks are for you. I can't tell you how much I appreciate this opportunity for feedback and suggestions.
cmsix
From: Desdmona
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:15:28 -0400
"cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:HwG79.10331$LO1.808195@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net ...
cmsix~
I'm going to comment on several posts here at once without quoting. I realize that's against newsgroup etiquette, but I'm so far behind from traveling that I'm going to break the rules.
Concerning NanoVirus:
Your explanation of the aliens has cleared up quite a bit of my confusion. I believe I may have gone into the story with the preconceived notion that when you choose 2% of a population to survive, you choose the 2% that you want to repopulate. It isn't reasonable that the aliens have no intention for repopulation, they have to know that even 2% will repopulate.
If a world is bad enough that it doesn't deserve to live, then why would you leave 2% of the same type of people that add to the badness of that world? In my mind, Jack Parsons, though he doesn't have politician or criminal, or preacher on his resume, has the same type of character and can be grouped with them. But if he's being saved merely because of his physical appearance, then it changes things. However, if the aliens choose the 2% by robustness, it now niggles because some of those criminals that were killed off are in the best physical shape of anybody. So, it's cheating to try and have it both ways. There needs to be a valid reason for Jack Parsons to be saved. He needs just one redeeming factor that sets him apart from the criminals and the politicians and the clergy. Healthy appearance and sexual prowess aren't unique enough to do the trick.
I think the biggest thing that you might learn in regards to the aliens, NanoVirus, and your stint in the FT, is that you had to explain and in some cases, defend nearly everything. Are we as readers just not understanding, or are you, as the author, not getting the point across clearly? My guess it's some of both, but only you can decide for yourself how much you care about people getting what you're trying to convey.
Concerning Respect:
I believe you've misspoke when you say that your story did not receive the same respect as other stories in the FishTank. There were several well-thought-out responses by nearly all the same people who respond to every story in the FishTank. You do a disservice to the people that took the time to read your submission and comment on it when you make a blanket statement about respect.
Concerning Subterfuge:
I don't believe for a second that Gary meant his sock-puppet to be some kind of veiled mystery. My personal belief is he used the sock-puppet, assuming everyone knew it was him. Obviously, it was a wrong assumption. I also believe he used the sock-puppet with the idea that sock-puppets break rules - do and say what they want. The sock-puppet response was detailed and went way beyond the FT guidelines. In other words, he knew he was going to break "the rules" of the FT. If there is more reasoning to it beyond this, then only Gary can answer. And I suggest that you and he discuss this, and might I further suggest you do it personally through email.
In fairness, that detailed response was about NanoVirus. It pointed out inconsistencies as he saw them, and made suggestions for improvement. And as in all suggestions, the author can take them or toss them.
I also would like to add that I hope we've learned our lesson about sock-puppets, so we can prevent confusion or misunderstandings in the future.
Concerning Texas Rednecks and Storytelling:
You've got a winner of a story here. It's a fact! All those people who are following the story aren't necessarily looking for a literary classic. You've given them what they wanted - a fun story that explores fantasies from A-Z. Your hard work, time and effort to write it all has been rewarded.
You're right when you say it's not my cup of tea, but who cares? It's obviously just what the doctor ordered for hundreds of others. The point is, as writers, we aren't going to like everything that is written, but I can almost guarantee we all respect honest effort when it comes to writing, whether it be from a guy with golden writing credentials, or a guy who just likes to tell stories in his own way.
Concerning my long-windedness:
I've probably left out something, but I'm done for now!
Des
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:12:36 GMT
Desdmona
Thank you again for letting the first chapter of NanoVirus appear in the "Fish Tank" it has certianly been a learning experience and has pointed out many things that I need to reconsider about that chapter and about my attitude in general.
I apologize for my trivial and childish remarks to Garys Muses Sockpuppet and for the childish and trivial remarks I made to others that commented on them.
cmsix
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:um2a4f9qik4g9f@news.supernews.com ...
From: Gary Jordan
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 20 Aug 2002 05:56:10 GMT
cmsix said:
I apologize both to Des and to cmsix. To Des for the (anyone know how to spell bru-ha-ha?) fracas within the glass walls; to cmsix for the misunderstanding stirred up by an unfamiliar (to him) screen name.
For the record, there was no disrespect intended. I take my science fiction seriously, and I tried to make suggestions which would make the aliens seem less like charicatures. A second post was used because I didn't say everything in the first, and regretted pushing send.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often." <I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays </I>
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:39:51 GMT
On 20 Aug 2002 05:56:10 GMT, pjcocoa@aol.come.to.bed (Gary Jordan) wrote:
brouhaha
From: Gary Jordan
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 20 Aug 2002 19:22:45 GMT
So Denny goes:
So ... your answer would be yes, then?
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often." <I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays </I>
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 18 Aug 2002 12:12:22 -0700
In one post, responding I think to Tenyari, cmsix writes:
I think this is a true and telling point, and a good opportunity to compare different readerships. As many of you know, NanoVirus is currently the most hightly rated Storiesonline story of all time, nosing past perennial champ Aftermath for a 9.55 out of 10 rating. Storiesonline readers didn't need to Fishtank to love NanoVirus.
cmsix, could you tell us about the feedback you've been getting from Storiesonline? How do their comments compare to the fishtank remarks? What did they like and dislike?
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 23:57:00 GMT
As has been mentioned elsewhere, the most interesting messages were the ones that complained about an aspect.
This is my favorite and it was the third message I received.
Great initial idea, but this guy is a complete fucking redneck. The idea that some advanced interstella civilization would have any interest in keeping such a complete neanderthal idiot alive is beyond me.
Letting me know that Jack was mainly working out the way I'd hoped he would. A few remarked about poor grammar and spelling. This caused me to dig around in Word and ask for help elsewhere, which I got, in making it leave .txt files alone and still start them using the larger fonts that my deteriorating vision demands that I use.
One reader pointed out that leaving 5% of the population would have me end up with far too many people for what I wanted to do and I reposted the first chapter changing the original 95% to 98% which it uses now. I thanked him profusely for pointing out that my math was less than I'd hoped for.
One reader from Spain usually requires a little explanation of the details every chapter or two as he has troubles due to reading it in his second language.
I gotten several messages cheering Nancy on if she give Jack a particularly vicious dressing down concerning his equipment, or his latest find of more women, or just to put him in his place. As an aside, Nancy was a real life waitress in the very real, at the time I lived there, Broken Spoke. Her character is nothing like the real life Nancy's was.
Several readers offered to proof read for me but I didn't want the delay it would cause and I didn't want them to take on more than they realized. I have posted more than 200k a week before and I didn't think it would be fair to ask them to take on such a job. One finally began proofreading chapters after they were posted and sending me the suggestions. I usually just repost ed the corrected parts a day or so later.
Many readers mail me and say that they just finished re-reading the whole story. As Jack's count of women climbed eight or ten readers complained that he wasn't spending any quality time with his original women and ask me to have him get back to one of their favorites.
Two or three cautioned me about getting into having Jack screw lesbians back onto the straight and narrow. Frankly these were the hardest scenes for me to write. I knew that they were complete bullshit and dreaded putting my female characters through it. They are the kind of scenes many readers and even some idiots I have known in real life enjoy or fantasize about. I didn't care about that but thought I couldn't really make fun of the type story I was writing without including them. I salved my conscious by making the women's 'change of heart' dependant on their being 'tricked' which is story speak for referring to Jack's new found mind control abilities.
One of my biggest surprises was when two couples from the west coast emailed me and saying that they loved the story but pointed out that they trick didn't really work. I didn't think that kind of thing was even possible.
One reader made several nice comments and asked an question or two but didn't give a return address so I could answer them. I used the name he always singed off with, reader30, and killed him in the next chapter. He didn't write me back for a while.
I often put little notes at the beginning or end of a chapter if I want them to do something. I shamelessly told them that I was nominated for the June Silver Clitty and ask them to vote for me. They did. I got a message from Gary then asking me to remove the Silvervoting address from the note, I emailed the webmaster and the address was removed. I emailed Gary offering to withdraw if he felt I'd been unfair, but he didn't suggest it. After I won the award in June I got one email from another author, who shall remain nameless until he at least finishes one of his stories, giving me left handed congratulations and saying that he had lost all respect for me since I had begged for votes.
I think I told him that I wasn't ashamed to ask for what I wanted or something to that affect/effect (I've never understood how to use these correctly). He mailed another cutting remark from a different email address.
I didn't have to beg. I mentioned it and they were glad to do it. Many of them emailed me, thanking me for letting them know about it and announcing that they had voted for me.
I didn't even know that I could be eligible for the July award since the story wasn't new anymore. I did become a finalist again somehow and this time after conferring with Gary, I left them a note at the end of a chapter telling that it was time to vote again and asking them to go to the site and read all the stories.
I watch the statistics at StoriesOnline.net carefully and I noticed that the score seemed to be dropping about a hundredth of a point with every twelve to fifteen votes. I assumed that the story was getting old to them and put a note on a chapter, pointing out my discovery and asking them to let me know if they wanted me to end it.
Response was alarming. Probably a hindered emails to that message. Many of them must have exercised their vote at StoriesOnline.net since the score shot up remarkably. When a story gains as many votes as mine has it takes a lot of votes to move it up at all. It can move down more easily since a vote of 1 can do more damage than nine votes of 10.
I'm beginning to fear that few of them realize that Nanovirus is trying to subtlety poke fun at itself and its peers.
Overall I have found that the readers are much more alert than some of you seem to think. They aren't writers, this makes them easier for me to understand, since I'm not a writer either. At best I'm a typing storyteller and I am a little proud of that.
cmsix
"Vinnie Tesla" <vinnie_tesla@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:a1a9f6ba.0208181112.3c269353@posting.google.com ...
From: Bradley Stoke
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 19 Aug 2002 12:52:52 -0700
Vinnie
I think you make a very fair point. Whatever one thinks of NanoVirus, it's certainly achieved levels of success on Stories OnLine and critical accolades (through the Silver Clitorides) that are pretty much unprecedented. In fact, I agree with csmsix that submitting the first chapter to the Fish Tank was unlikely to attract very many more new readers. Indeed, it risked attracting rather more the criticism of those, like me, who are quite unlikely to give it very much praise. csmsix's submission to the Fish Tank was very brave and (at least initially) his responses to criticism were considered and reasonable.
However, I'm not convinced there is any great difference between the readers of erotic stories on Stories OnLine, ASSM or, indeed, anywhere else. I've submitted stories to several places and there is no discernible difference in the feedback I've received. It's all been pretty much varied and patternless. The fact that csmsix has gained the Silver Clitorides award for a second month (and will probably win the Golden Clitorides) doesn't seem to suggest to me that there is any reason to deny him the credit of enormous popular success in all the places his story has been featured or promoted. The only difference I know of is between the consensus of what constitutes worthwhile sex fiction that has mostly emerged on ASSD and the view of the average sex fiction reader.
Let's face it. csmsix is on to a winner. His brand of science fiction coupled with survivalism in Texas, mixed in with large breasted women and plenty of pumping heterosexual sex: this is the formula for success. Perhaps this is the direction we should all go in. Hey! It works. Don't knock it.
Bradley Stoke
http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:41:03 -0600
On 19 Aug 2002 12:52:52 -0700, bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley Stoke) wrote:
The Fish Tank is like that. You're going to get some suggestions to change big things, and not every story appeals to everyone. That can make it harder. Plus I think that speculative fiction of any sort pushes the reader more, makes it more likely to get a critical interest.
A plain old "just sex" story drama about ordinary people can be fun too, but you rarely wonder if the big changes in their universe make sense or not. At least, if they have personalities much like real people ;-)
I haven't used StoriesOnline though I believe my story site is linked from it (and some stories as well) with permission. I've thought about doing it, but - and this reflects time limit as well as tastes - I find enough stuff to read, usually, off ASSM and ASSTR. When I do look around, I may use Google or follow story links from stories. So I'm not a StoriesOnline reader. I am familiar with some of the stories when they are posted on ASSM, though, and those posted both places seem to be much the same.
I mean there is a lot of variety in story type and style, content and such, so it is only natural that it is hard to figure out who the 'average reader' is.
ASSD, though, isn't so likely made up of average readers. We have an above average interest in good grammar and dislike of spelling mistakes, I imagine. Writers of stories tend to be more critical of their own work, and by comparison of others as well. Reading stories is both for fun, and to help learn how to do it by emulating someone else.
One thing to keep in mind is that "stroke" as a class of sex story isn't a bad thing. Now maybe, some of us here have no interest in that kind of story. I just don't see it as being unpopular among the bulk of readers. And while some sex stories might have more plot than sex, I think that strong sex is still a big plus for popularity.
I try to mix both. I don't really know if I'm writing "literary" erotica or porn. Though I suspect it tends towards the erotica side of things, I dislike leaving out too much sexy bits in the story.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Tenyari
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:32:31 GMT
On 19 Aug 2002 12:52:52 -0700, bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley Stoke) wrote:
I suppose it does. The above formula sure doesn't work as literature (unless you're Hemingway ;) ), but as porn it's a winning combination.
And despite any authors desires to the contrary, I'd bet 90% of the readers come to these places looking for verbal porn rather than erotica or literature.
I agree with you that the readership seems to be similar across sites, judging from my own feedback and scoring. At least among the types who like the sort of thing I write. Which is a fairly meaningless statement. :)
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ). If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it was about a girl and a half.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:05:21 -0600
On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:32:31 GMT, tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
I do think it can be a sort of literature. Doing a "Dallas" fanfic might well have that sort of material in it (makes me wonder if any of the Ewing family happens to appear in NanoVirus in any form ;-).
Is there something wrong with verbal porn? I do find it hard to mix both serious romance and hot sex all the time, but in RL I think they make a dynamite combination. Sex can still be sweet and pure of heart when it is exciting and edgy. Can't it?
It may be harder to write such combinations. I for one am rather impressed with cmsix's writing output. I'd like to write so much :-) And I think that I do a fair amount, but still find it hard to finish so much story in a reasonable time frame.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Tenyari
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 23:37:22 GMT
On 22 Aug 2002 12:06:13 -0700, altan1@bigfoot.com (Altan) wrote:
Is it a popularity contest or a contest of quality?
I've been under the impression it was about quality, in which case self promotion to drive up votes is highly unethical.
If it's about popularity, then self promotion should not only be assumed but encouraged and recommended.
However, we can gauge popularity with hit counts, we don't need the clitorides for that.
I thought one of the purposes of the awards to highlight stories others might otherwise miss. In that case, it should definitely not be about popularity.
Tenyari
writer in progress ( http://www.asstr.org/~tenyari/ ). If he tells you "he'd slept with four girls one night, you could figure it was about a girl and a half.
From: celia batau
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:21:28 -0700
hi Tenyari!
"tenyari" <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:qjtamuccngft83gjsaaf3nu5n1ajde6ohv@4ax.com ...
aren't the clitorides mostly to expose ppl to more stories?
we don't think it matters if it's a popularity contest or not, if it gets ppl to check out the other stories or vote. let the popular story have its moment. there are also reviews and favorites lists that can focus more on "quality."
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
All my life I wanted to be someone - I guess I should have been more specific -soyflower
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:00:37 -0600
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:19:45 GMT, tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes. There are better writers, but being able to tell a story with style and creativity and, for the most part, logical consistency, makes them good.
Both also tend to pander to "formula" material, intended to please the mainstream audience. King is somewhat repetitive in themes.
But some writers have no consistency, no good logic, lots of plot holes, and serious issues with continuity in editing.
Movie scripts have even more problems in that regard. Novels based on movies can try to fix those up, but the actual story writing depth in movie scripts tends to be way worse than in successful print novels.
A story can survive a lot of technical weaknesses. But one of the expectations of becoming a successful writer is that you'll learn to overcome them. The fact that a lot of older fiction shows such problems doesn't mean you shouldn't try to avoid it. Modern writing technology makes it easier to edit and revise, and the net result is that you need not be stuck with a story, in print, which has major but fixable flaws.
Same on the net.
My order for posting tends to be usenet, then web. I may revise it a few times on the website, then repost the revision later on usenet. So, even if a story was posted with rough edges, it can get fixed up.
Or you can just learn from your mistakes and move on, doing new stories without repeating them.
NanoVirus's "mistakes" in the first chapter aren't enough to kill interest in the rest. A weak start happens in a lot of novels, and readers can sometimes go past what they don't like, finding the rest to their taste. The whole thing is long enough that a weak beginning doesn't make the entire tale weak.
Still, science fiction writing has evolved over the decades (well, centuries now), and the "modern" style tends to be more demanding on technical issues and logic. Pop "movie" scifi is often bad at that, but print stuff tends to be fairly good at being more than just "space opera." Even in those stories which are intended just as fluff and fun, self-consistency in the science background is sort of a given.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: celia batau
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:27:48 -0700
hi Jeff!
"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d6542f5$0$1428$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...
yeah. :) we can get all melty over a girl-and-her-robot love story, but the robot definitely needs to be based in science. :)
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
Everybody jumping jumping
Everybody dancing now
Ay Mama
Que sabrosa tu estás
-Rabanes
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 01:21:56 -0700
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 23:37:22 GMT, tenyari <tenyariNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
(about the GCs and SCs)
The only answer to that question: yes.
I think that generally the first couple years' worth of GCs, and the first few months of the SC were primarily voted on a 'quality' basis. But it was always evident that 'popularity contest' was a likely course, and that's the way we seem to be going.
Now, I do tend to answer 'yes' to Norm's suggestion that we're taking ourselves too seriously - but there are a lot of ways the Cs (of whatever color) could go. There are also other 'awards' and such - note that Crimson Dragon is doing a 'best of the month' list; I hope she'll do a 'Year's Best' after she's done the Crimson Reviews that long. We'll be adding to the "Favourites List" that Rui maintains - that's not really a list of 'bests' but it certainly is a good resource.
I like the suggestion made by cmsix and tenyari of awards done by a judging panel. I like the GCs and SCs as they are - or as they've been.
I'm not keen on folk plugging their candidacy for awards, but it's not something we can - or should - ban. I personally wouldn't do it, but that's an individual matter.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 23:32:15 -0600
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:27:48 -0700, "celia batau" <pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote:
Right. Or even if it is magic, we want it to be self-consistent with no horrible plot holes to hurt our brains. How hard can it be to make the background consistent?
But I've read stories about the TV/movie producer crowd and its influence on SciFi TV. Since nobody really cares or understands - since the producer doesn't - why worry about such trivial things?
A story can go all surreal and let you know that the world is rather dreamlike and unreal, but if that happens, it better not pretend to be grounded in solid reality. Action fantasies can be fun, but the whole suspension of disbelief can be blown by one big gaff.
The girl and her robot (or the boy and his robot) is a kind of classic sort of love story. The partners who shouldn't get together, but fall in love anyway, and raise nice questions about just what love is about. Whether differences in physical elements really make a difference to that, and such important matters.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 06:45:33 GMT
"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d643d30$0$3569$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...
Sparkle was a hit, though I was chastened by a couple for eschewing a graphic description of her first encounter with Jack. The last three chapters have been basically sex less and I think the natives are getting a little restless. I guess it's titillation time in Texas.
cmsix
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:44:26 -0600
On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 06:45:33 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, that can be tricky, trying to stick in some non-sex action in a sex heavy story. I happen to like it when other things than sex go on. But it is kind of like when you're on a streak and getting some every night, and you get transferred and are stuck by yourself.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 01:14:26 GMT
"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d6acb84$0$1427$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...
Well it was the third chapter with no sex. I've done it before but after two or three some of them get antsy. Most of them email me and want to get the plot moving and forget the sex. Can't please them all though.
Sometimes I feel like just typing in a note, maybe: "Not this chapter dear, I have a headache."
Anyway I'll let you know as soon as Sparkle is pregnant. I'll try not to let her tits swell any more than is absolutely necessary.
cmsix
To be abused, even, by the mistress of one's heart is better than to be ignored. - Edgar Rice Burroughs
From: dennyw
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 01:50:42 -0700
On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:44:26 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote:
What is this 'getting some every night' the JZ breezes of?
From: cmsix
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:42:09 GMT
<dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.invalid> wrote in message news:i9fmmu8vkpl04t7hruut0uq491ijp51i29@4ax.com ...
I've never noticed. He can't be married can he?
cmsix
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:41:20 -0600
On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:42:09 GMT, "cmsix" <cmsix@hotmail.com> wrote:
I thought that was the entire point of getting married? Or at least for living together. You mean that it isn't?
I guess we're doing something wrong then. Oh well, I never planned on being "normal". :-)
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Qickless
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 26 Aug 2002 11:44:52 -0700
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:<um2a4f9qik4g9f@news.supernews.com> ...
[..]
A point that I have been trying to echo for some time. Stroke erotica as in "stroke, stroke" erotica is one which appeals to the masses. Want popularity? Write Fuck, Fuck, Fuck a thousand times and you get to drink a lot of 10.0 beer. Writing subtle erotica takes a lot more time(and perhaps more effort) but you get stuck in grade 2 and think you're a loser.
The world is as it is, and I write for myself, but right from the start, the formula for success has been quite simple - kiss the ass of a thousand girls in thousand odd contorted ways and you have a bestseller.
Sad.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:22:17 -0600
On 26 Aug 2002 11:44:52 -0700, qickless.invalidemail@fastmail.fm (Qickless) wrote:
There are different reasons to write. Popularity is one, but I think that trying to write things purely to fit what the hypothetical audience wants is difficult, demanding, and perhaps frustrating for many of us. Maybe for most writers? Having something in it which is your own desire, your own idea, your own tastes, etc., it what makes it fun to do. Even if you are trying to reach a bigger audience, having something you like in there seems essential.
So is there something wrong with liking lots of sex in fantasy situations, with weak plots but lots of action? I doubt that Hollywood is out looking for fine literate stories for most of its movie making :-)
Not everyone will like every sort of story, whether it is for style or activity or any other reason.
That kind of works, but I think that some best sellers don't follow that plan. There are a lot which do, some do it very well. But there is still room for variety.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Qickless
Re: NanoVirus, by cmsix
Date: 27 Aug 2002 09:59:42 -0700
Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3d6ae272$0$1434$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com> ... [..]
That makes it all alright,
which is why I write :-0
variety
is the spice of life(now I'm pushing it :-)
Qickless
ATfastmail.fm
http://asstr.org/~qickless
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