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From: meme misspelt
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:22:57 GMT
This story is a complete story and is 3219 words. It was part of a write club duel. If you have any questions concerning that duel, you may contact FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com.
Positive:
I thought it did a really nice job of capturing the decadent colonial atmosphere. I was a little taken aback by the use of unfamiliar slang, but on the whole I liked that. I had to look up "inspanned" which at first I thought was a typo for "impressed" - nice! (Perhaps the first time an erotic story has made me scurry for a dictionary?) Question: when is the story set? "Sports bra" seemed borderline anachronistic.
I liked the sex scenes themselves very well - just a little bit of uncertainty and awkwardness makes it much more vivid and real to me, and I thought these had just about the right amount. Well done! Quibble: Does poor Carol ever get a good come?
Suggestions:
To the sound of another round of knowing laughter, Carol and I beat it into the kitchen to make the salad and get to know each other, not necessarily in that order. Away from Doris, she was a relaxed, fun person and we bickered happily about how to make a truly excellent salad and, before long, she was putting an arm into the small of my back to hold me steady while sucking salad dressing from my fingers so I could smooth the hair back from her ...
I wanted badly to see the first part of that second sentence expanded (and, okay, the whole thing broken up a bit ...that is an almost Jamesian setence, there) - the old "show rather than tell rule," - what comes next is pretty hot, and I think the happy bickering leading up to it would only have increased the heat.
This is the first time I've participated in the Fish Tank, & I don't know if this is considered fair game, but I thought I minor but thoughtful copy edit would have smoothed it tremendously. The obvious attention to language here makes the few flaws stand out more sharply to me. Two specific examples:
puppy-fat were still there - with broad hips and a very nice, very round bottom encased snugly in blue jeans. When she forgot to slouch, she revealed good shoulders and nice, round breasts firmly
two nice round things in two paragraphs (um, three perhaps) ...if this is going for a deliberate effect, I'd put the "very" in the second time, else I'd opt for different adjectives.
afternoon and starting a conversation with Joan. There was a bar-sized ash-tray placed ready by her chair. Long before she went home, it would be my duty to empty before it overflowed with stompies.
Missing an "it" after "duty to empty," I think, although linguistically it's arguable, it would read more clearly (imho) with "it."
Lastly:
But that is another story.
Which I, for one, would be interested in seeing.
~MM~
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 12:10:59 -0600
On 07 Jan 2002 05:44:58 GMT, desdmona22@aol.com (Desdmona22) wrote:
First, negatives: Even with a bit of experience with some other stories (both the Father's and others), the meaning of some words wasn't at all clear from context. I can guess that braai is something like a backyard barbecue/garden party, and that gwaai might be a cigar, others aren't so clear, making the scenes a bit confusing. I do understand that dialectal words (even American ones) are natural in stories, but sometimes it helps to add a bit of hint as to what they mean, for those unfamiliar.
I do think that applies to a lot of writers, myself included. I tend to use Americanisms naturally, and make cultural references, and only sometimes will add in some alternative meaning in another phrase so a reader unfamiliar with them can figure it out.
First positive comes directly from that one: the dialect and situation-setting is very nice. The location and people are well-defined, not generic city folk, definitely not midwest USA'n country club set.
I like a lot of things about the story, but especially the vivacious Carol, who manages to make the sex scenes so exciting. One of my own weaknesses is exhibitionist sex (story or otherwise). It is hard not to appreciate a tale about someone into that sort of thing.
Another related thing is the ending airplane teaser scene. I know of a number of ways to pull of that trick, but sadly have never done any of them. It would be nice to read about :-)
I'm not sure about other negatives. I did notice that Carol and Henri didn't get together for a more mutually satisfactory sex scene shown in the story. The only one there (other than for excitement, which is rather satisfying when you think about it later) was the one which comes after the end of the story.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 08 Jan 2002 03:43:55 GMT
First thoughts:
Problems:
1. Not enough tension. Carol is introduced early but so slightly as to have that introduction at most an annoyance, and then nothing really drives the piece forward. We need some kind of hook and some kind of struggle and some kind of resolution. A thought: Start with the kitchen seduction and catch us up as we go along. Okay, now the kids need a place. Get us to the museum, have them about to get into it, and then the discovery. For the resolution ... well, perhaps they decide to continue despite the audience. And then who knows.
2. Language and structure and vocabulary. It's a little hard to read, and vocabulary is the least of it. The sentence structure is complex, maybe too complex, and many of the sentences aren't ever so slightly off.
Good things:
1. The characters. I like them all so far as I can see them, but I think they're under used. Give us more of them and less background.
2. The dialogue. It's funny and apt and sexy in places. For example:
"Just off. Watch the fire for me," I said,
"Go and help the young man, Carol" said Doris, "Show him what you've got."
More of it, please.
- Mat Twassel
From: RocketBlast_76
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 00:00:53 -0500
I, as did other reviewers, appreciated the cultural influence in the story. But to be more specific;
1) I liked the way you injected humor into tense situations, specifically during the museum lovemaking session when Henri thinks to himself, "The old Boers were obviously not into bondage; they presumably wanted their wives free to brew coffee or herd the cows at a moments notice." It's exactly the sort of thing that pops into your head when your trying to concentrate and adds to the realism of the story.
2) The descriptive quality of the entire text is excellent. I had a clear image of most of the scenery. The image of the residents as "wrinklies lizarding around in the sun" (to paraphrase) is a great example of this.
3) Other have already noted that some context might be required in order to make the story more cross-cultural. I would suggest that only a few things be described. I don't think it's absolutely necessary for the reader to understand every point of reference, but a comparative statement or two might help set the scene more effectively. (e.g.
4)There is one incredibly long run-on sentence. To quote, "Away from Doris, she was a relaxed, fun person and we bickered happily about how to make a truly excellent salad and, before long, she was putting an arm into the small of my back to hold me steady while sucking salad dressing from my fingers so I could smooth the hair back from her brow because her fingers were oily, too, and she was giggling as, in making a hasty taste-test, she accidentally dropped a half-slice of cucumber onto her breast and I then had to suck that clean, too, and I was discovering what it feels like to have salad dressing in your hair while someone holds your head into her breast and gives you some insight into why a long-term boyfriend might have dumped such a delightful, fun creature. "
It makes sense, but a few periods couldn't hurt.
It was an excellent story by any standards. Thank you for writing it. RB76
From: PleaseCain
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 08 Jan 2002 05:36:17 GMT
This is just great! I love your voice, rich in all kinds of personality-touches like colloquialisms and humor, and especially the youthful abandon of the characters, how they fall so easily to horseplay and good-natured carping, which is so much fun, like a Coen brothers movie or a French farce.
For improvements, I would suggest watching the extraneous adverbs, as in "snapped Carol, irritably," and lists of adjectives like "her thin, much-laundered, white, cotton, button-up shirt." There are also a few places where you break up phrases so that they sounded awkward to me and forced me to re-read:
Nowadays, on top of all else, we also have a high incidence of AIDS in the general population and, every so often, a new disease, such as Congo fever, emerges. [Nothing technically wrong with this, I guess, but I would keep together "a new disease emerges" for clarity and to reduce the choppiness.]
Doris heard they needed some strong backs to get a new exhibit - an old trek wagon, designed for twenty-six span of oxen to drag through the veldt - properly mounted and serenely volunteered on my behalf. [" ... properly mounted and serenely volunteered ...": the subtitle of "Memoirs of a Geisha"?]
Another words, there is not a whole lot wrong here.
Thanks for chipping in with this one. I had not read any of your stories before now, and this left me feeling so happy. Sorry about the bad pun above - couldn't resist.
Cain
From: PleaseCain
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 08 Jan 2002 06:17:10 GMT
From: meme misspelt
This is the coolest name I have seen in a long time. Like a James Bond villain. When they were menacing, beating up Sean Connery even. When he was menacing.
Wow.
Cain
From: spline duck
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 9 Jan 2002 07:33:42 -0800
Great story, slowly building to lots of tension, with a comic release. Nicely done. My favorite phrase from the whole story is "wrinklies lizarding." I loved the very steady pacing of the text. It builds without jumping around, and it just slowly gets more and more intense.
Two grammar things:
The first paragraph ends with "This happens not to be a problem for Carol, however." It took me a couple of read to figure out what the antecedant of "this" actually was. It would be tighter to replace "this" with the actual item that it is meant to refer to.
In the third paragraph, there is the sentence: "This led to a long convalescence in the tiny town where my father lives amongst a community of other retired people." But community is singular; it is hard to live "amongst" a singular. Better would be "among other retired people." I don't know about SA, but I was told long ago that "amongst" was archaic.
D.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Spline Duck's stories are available at
www.asstr.org/~duck
and
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/duck/
From: Always Horny
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:56:03 +0100
First, apologies for late post.
My father's health has turned critical and things are bit rough over here.
Now the feedback to Nat. Hopefully not too late:
1) positive comments
Nice pace. Interesting situations.
Characters well set, in few sentences.
You have a knack for funny dialogs, Nat.
Your style make me wish finesse was more common around the net.
Funny story.
2) things to improve
When they fuck in the museum, you may want to expand a little bit on their
"getting into it" to make it more believable that they forget about the rest of
the world. As it is, my SOD was stretched by the kids getting there un-noticed.
The Afrikaans folklore words bit is overdone for non-ZA audiences.
There are very many epithets in some places. And very many and commas too. While this is obviously deliberate for style, it is rather on the heavy side, and in places it gets overdone. Same goes for the slightly-out-of-size epithets. Borderline overdone. Overall the same comment goes as well for your "humor-style" effects in this story: as much as I love you form of humor, and enjoy it very much in other stories like "expanding Julie", in this one it feels a just a little out of whack. Slightly forced or overdone.
I realize that my feedback looks like it is overall negative, but that's not true. I just expanded more on the "wrong" bits to try and be specific. Overall a nice story with lots of potential once cleaned-up.
HTH a little.
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: Desdmona
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 11 Jan 2002 18:40:44 GMT
Convalescence (MF Voy)
By Father Ignatius
Copyright September 2000
Voice! Voice! Voice!
This story is all about the voice for me. The narrator's voice is absolutely wonderful. There's a scene setting and imagery from his distinctive way of speaking that doesn't require specifics. It transports me back to the '30's and'40's best shown in old black and white movie classics. Where these old movies don't need color, neither does this story need specifics. Unfortunately, I think the story is meant to be modern day ... Rwanda refugees, airplanes, AIDS, sports bras etc. are just a few minor things that bring me back to the present. And I don't want to be in the present. The voice is educated, witty, and colorful, but in an "old world" sort of way. That's its best feature. Tidbits of present day don't add to the story, on the contrary, they detract from it.
Henri is supposed to be "the younger generation" and yet his father is 65 or older. In my estimation it would seem Henri would then be closer to 40, wouldn't he? Thinking 40 is the younger generation in modern day thinking stretches the imagination. Carol, who is 18, would actually be considered "the younger generation" in today's mindset. But that raises the problem of Doris thinking it's perfectly all right for her granddaughter to be frolicking with a man twice her age.
In my experience, people in their 60's do think that people in their 40's is the younger generation, but they also think that teens are still children. Why does Carol have to be 18? Why can't she be 25? Even Henri is surprised by her age. An 18 year old with a voracious appetite for dangerous sex, maybe, but an 18 year old who is just getting over a long term relationship, and one of the reasons for the breakup (in Henri's way of thinking) is because of her penchant for exhibitionism? <sigh> It just seems like a cop-out. She's 18 because 18 is titillating to people who read sex stories. This story is way too intelligent for cliches.
The other reason I'd like to think of this story as a piece from the past is because of the unusual vocabulary. Distinctive, cultural words that I have no experience with can be very intriguing. Unfortunately, when I as the reader can only guess what they mean by the content around them, it makes me think the author is showing-off. On the other hand, if this takes place in an older time - an older place - the vocabulary not only sets it apart, it becomes necessary. It's all of a sudden about normality in that time and place and my ignorance about such things.
It's an extremely witty, intelligent, and deliciously sexy romp. I love Carol and Henri and would love to follow along with more of their exploits. And I'm extremely jealous to think that as being part of a write club duel, the speed in which this must have been written.
Thanks Nat for giving us this opportunity and for making us think!
Des
PS. One note more, in the paragraph,
"I was a tremendous audience for all their stories that they'd already told each other time without number ..."
When you say, "Several of the them ..." I thought it was referring to the retired sailor's youthful exploits. It confused me enough to have to stop and reread a couple of times. Maybe you could reword it a little.
Thanks again!
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 12 Jan 2002 04:16:08 GMT
Crap. It's Friday already and I didn't get this one commented upon. Sorry, Nat. I do have things to say, but (forgive me) this was the first week back at work after the holiday, and those little ones wore me out this week.
Alexis.
"Dancing is a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire."
- Steven Wright
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
From: Poison Ivan
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 14:28:40 -0500
Better a little late than never!
Nice story, Padre. I liked the introduction of the narrator, the setting of the scene, and how you placed him recuperating in a wrinklies community. Right from the beginning, the interesting situation and odd location got me interested in reading the rest of the story.
The complaints I have are minor. "No-one who knew Doris would be at all surprised by that," was slightly awkward to my ears, probably because "that" had a complicated antecedent that I didn't catch the first time.
I know we're not supposed to repeat, but Meme's complaint about not enough description of the youngsters getting to know one another in the kitchen was a big stumbling block for me. The long run-on sentence wasn't nearly enough description, plus the sentence was long and run-on. A double annoyance. I think this is the one place in the story that you can't skimp on, because it is the scene where the characters come together.
Hm, things that I liked about the story-telling that haven't been taken already. How about "ready for mischief," after he's recuperated enough to be horny again? I loved the use of that word, especially since things got more mischievous than the narrator expected!
Nice story, though, with a nice, light tone in spite of the complex grammar and vocabulary.
Poison Ivan
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 12 Jan 2002 21:15:04 GMT
On second look:
Why do we have the first and last paragraphs? Those both seem to be parts of some other story.
I was very weak for a long, long time and my step-mother took delight in feeding me up. They have a very active social life with a large circle of friends. I was inspanned to assisting them to host a brisk series of braais
This long long time seems to disappear. I think the problem is structure. It really needs to begin with Carol. This story is not really about convalescene - it's about a particular incident, a particular relationship. That that happens to end the convalescene is almost incidental. The thing could have happened just as easily without most of the "background."
As we were setting out tables and chairs in the garden for yet another braai the telephone rang and Joan, my step-mother, came out to report that Doris had asked if she might bring her grand-daughter.
I would start the story about here. Some of the stuff before could be useful, but in a fill-in way.
For Carol likes to have sex where there's a danger of getting caught.
Where does this information come from? It seems out of place in the narration.
...we rocketed off ...
The longish comic section of the escape in lieu of a climax is humorous but not really satisfying.
It was then that I decided that my recuperation was over and Carol decided that she'd got over being dumped by her previous boyfriend.
A nice ending. And yet abrupt - especially Carol's part of the conclusion. In fact, I'd like to see this conclusion being reached, even it it's only two one-liners.
- Mat Twassel
PS Remarkable that this much could be done this well in less than half a day.
From: Poison Ivan
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 23:50:07 -0500
"mat twassel" wrote ...
... a bunch of good stuff ...
Thinking about it more, I think I agree with Mat about the structure of the story. It feels off-balance. I think there is a strong plot hidden under the covers here, but it's glossed over. There needs to be more focus on the convalescence and how this liaison helps the two people move on with their lives.
By the way, not many stories invite this type of criticism. Most stories don't have enough depth and nuance to talk about amplifiying this point and diminishing this other one. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to fix it without a major rewrite. I'm not sure if Father Nat is inclined to try a big rewrite, but if he did, I wouldn't mind seeing it again in the Fish Tank.
Poison Ivan
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 13 Jan 2002 05:51:07 -0800
First things first: thanks to Des for running Fish Tank and doing what ASSD should, IMHO, be about. And thanks to El Gato, Meme, Jeff, Mat, Rocket Blast, PleaseCain, Spline Duck, Always Horny, Des and Poison Ivan for responding so helpfully and constructively (I shall see Alexis after school) . It's been a very valuable experience for me having this feedback.
What seems to underlie much of this discussion is that the story was written as a Write Club duel (http://www.asstr.org/~Rui_Favorites/Write_Club/ - thanks, Rui). In essence, you get nine "challenge" words and three hours to write an unprepared story start-to-finish that incorporates all nine words. That the story was written start to finish in three hours explains much of what was commented on.
"Incorporates" means "not merely includes" - the words have to be intrinsic to the story. This was someone's (Malinov's?) good idea to discourage duellists from pre-writing stories. At the point where the duel was written, however, things had got out of hand to the point where one of the challenge words for this story was "craspedomorphology." (more details at http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Convalescence.html). I used all nine words in the original version of the story (http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/Alt.Sex.Stories.Moderated/Year2000/26429) but I felt they were so bizarre that the odder ones are edited out at http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Convalescence.html. An effect of this was, when I re-read the story before submitting it to Des, I was wondering, "What the fuck were you thinking, wambling on about retired tugboat captains in the middle of a Write Club duel?" Well, it was an effort (not entirely successful, I think) to incorporate the challenge word "seaman" (not "semen") in the story.
One of the reasons for selecting this story for FishTank was that I'm inclined to think it needs a complete re-work. The tugboat reference, for example, should be tossed out altogether. For this duel, the referee (Hecate) added some extra stipulations. For example, there had to be an airport scene. In wondering why it was there, Mat was successfully detecting another inclusion that was an unsuccessful incorporation - the frantic author, after 2 hours and 55 minutes, was desperately trying to shoe-horn in the last of the referee's requirements. Serendipitously, I got what I think as the sexiest effect of the story this way. As Jeff pointed out, the sexiest scene is the one you have to imagine for yourself after the story ends. Yes, it does end over-hurriedly. I had 20 seconds to get the story to the implacable Hecate, waiting in England (she's an excellent, no-shit Write Club referee, BTW, for anyone who might be considering giving Write Club a whirl - thanks, Hec, and well done ).
In fact, with those words and those extra requirements, I wondering if this wasn't the most constrained Write Club duel ever written. This makes me doubly pleased to get favorable remarks about pace and development. Looking back on it, I'm pretty amazed that this was possible.
The implications of Write Club constraints include that much written is not thought through properly. For example, it never occurred to me (or anyone else, it seems) before Des pointed it out during the week that the protagonists have incommensurate ages. I'm not sure what to do about it. Carol should become an older divorcee, maybe. As such, though, she wouldn't fit so neatly under Doris's thumb. Maybe I can make the wrinklies younger. Maybe it's a fatal flaw.
And, of course, the duel environment also explains the "Jamesian" run-on sentences, the imporper development of Carol's propensity for public sex and so on. It doesn't, however, explain why these things were not fixed in the subsequent edit<blush>. With your help, they can now be fixed.
Much of the comment was about the voice of the narrator and it was mostly favourable . I'm pretty pleased with it myself. That's another thing about Write Club. There's so little time that using your own voice is just about the only option you've got. This is A Good Thing, in my view. Whose voice other than one's own should we use?
It is clear, though, that in writing in my own voice I don't over-do it. I find that it is difficult to soft-pedal enough for the Americans who dominate the readership. It takes me back to the day I de-lurked in ASSD to send my first ever flame. As I recall, there was a stunned silence followed by an e-mail of congratulation from DrSpin, Denny wrote to correct my spelling and the rest is history. (Incidentally, I just looked up that post - it's in the Celestial Reviews 351 December 23 thread - and discover that it was made on 6th January 2000. Does this make me a Golden Ager?)
http://groups.google.com/groups?frame=right&rnum=1&thl=0,1427143734,1427120811,1426871750,1427064797,1427032625,1427018435,1427017545,1427005927,1426952148,1426923736,1426780607&seekm=83uhvp%24bnq%241%40nnrp1.deja.com#link1
It's an apposite, informed and well-written thread. It has Mercans, Brits, Ozzies, Yarps, cavemen, pet peeves, Bronwen and Wijit rapping my knuckles, a bum joke by Conjugate and Erin Halfelven being witty and wise. What more could you ask for?
Despite its name, google shows me that the thread started with an elegantly vituperative flame from Semicolon Janey Herself about the use of number scales in Reviews and Celeste's use of guest reviewers. Ho-hum. The threads never change, only the participants.
The issue then was some moron (and I use the word here in its sense of "someone who disagrees with me") was complaining of the need for English writers, such as Vicki Morgan, to remove Anglicisms from their stories in order that Mercans could understand them. My memory, though not google, has the impression that the moron in question wanted all stories everywhere to be re-cast in terms that anyone whose horizons were limited to Pitchpipe, South Minnebraska, could readily understand them.
"How fucking ridiculous," I thought then and that's pretty much what I think now. I'm an African. I was born in Africa. I've lived in Africa all my life. I can't do South Minnebraska. And nor, I think, should I try to. South African English is as distinct from Mercan English (which is scarcely a universal standard) as, say, Australian English. Ya gotta write what you know.
My choice is to make my stories generic or set them in Africa, predominantly near Cape Town, South Africa, which is where I am.
When I attempt generic, a couple of things happen. The first is that that we non-Mercan authors can't seem to make their stories generic enough. We have to appeal to Mercan editors to iron out the non-generic linguistic quirks that we can't even see are there (I have a colleague who write excellent textbooks and who would dearly love to, and deserves to, break into the lucrative Mercan college market. The reviews note the books' high quality and then apply the kiss of death by mentioning the "charming Anglicisms" that we can't even tell are there).
The second thing is that the stories so treated are lacking in flavour. They've been sanitised. This seems a pity. An example of a sanitised story is:
http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Lifeguard-cum-Coach.html
(the famous "bromeliads" story). IMHO, that story has a whole lot less oomph than my most popular story,
http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Expanding_Julie's_Sexual_Horizons.html
which uses South African English and includes smatterings of Afrikaans. That's how we talk around here and, if you could here my accent, you'd shit to year mar flet varl sarns < - This is English, BTW: "hear my flat vowel sounds." Not one reader has complained and one Kiwi even said, "It's a nice little Yappie story," 'Yappie' or 'Yarp' being slang in NZ, and elsewhere, for 'South African.'
So, after all that, I guess the point is that, if you're going to put in local flavour, do it right. That means, amongst other things, don't over-do it. If you do it right, the reader should be able to pick up enough of your meaning from context. And, I feel, the reader should be open to a little extra non-Pitchpipe colour. I recently used more Afrikaans than ever before in my contribution ("Franschhoek," which is in the wine country near Cape Town) to the "Housewife 1946" series (http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/Alt.Sex.Stories.Moderated/Year2001/29063). In this case, the local language is intrinsic to the story I was telling - which revolves around social mores that characteristic of the time and place - but I worked hard to make the meaning apparent from the context. The editorial feedback was, "Okay, but don't do it again." Fair enough, I think. And it seems I need to work harder at it in the story we're discussing.
But not over-hard. In
http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Bang_Bang_Youre_Dead.html I
got complaints about excessive South Africanisms so I recently
re-worked the whole story with the help of a Mercan editor
(thanks, Alexis) to the point where only one South Africanism
(that I can see) remains. That it's a term of endearment is, I
hope, obvious from context. Even if you don't know it translates
as "little treasure," it doesn't I hope, matter. It's just a
little local flavour. But. Problem is, the story is definitely
set in Cape Town, and couldn't be set anywhere else, part of me
feels it's now over-sanitised and lacking in piquancy.<sigh>
. They have a very active social life with a large circle of friends. I was inspanned to assisting them to host a brisk series of braais.
Inspanned was easy to get, braais wasn't.
Not everyone agrees (surprise, surprise). It's from "span," the Afrikaans for "team" as in "span of oxen" (which I believe was used on the wagon trains going out west with the Forty-Niners and so forth). It means "harnessed into." That's an example of something I would have thought was universally understood. Oops.
"Braai" is short for "braaivleis," literally "burn meat." Means "barbecue." The central feature of South African social life.
"Parched like a donga in a drought and dying for a gwaai," said Doris firmly, "Carol, lovey, get Granny a G&T, there's a good girl."
Now I'm thinking a gwaai is something like a cocktail party.
Not quite. A gwaai is a cigarette. A donga is a ditch carved be erosion. Pedestrians beat a footpath through the bush in the dry season and, when the drought breaks, soil erosion turns it into a four-foot-deep gully that you can't get a four-by-four through. IIRC, it's a Shona word.
Next we hear Doloris talking about the fire. Is this a 'shrimp on the barbie' thing?
Sort of thing. But no sea food that far from the sea. The staple is boerewors ('farm sausage') which is four feet of sheep gut stuffed with your secret recipe sausage filling and coiled up over the coals.
Maybe a link to a glossary, or one at the end would be helpful for poor dumb Okies like myself.<G>
Hmmm. That's one of those never-ending arguments. My view: glossaries are a clumsy pain and a testament to authorial failure. I'd much rather cut back or use context to exhibit meaning more clearly.
The "decadent colonial atmosphere" is as contemporary as this weekend, so "sports bra" is not anachronistic. As we speak, my father and Doris and the rest of the wrinklies are lizarding round the braai, chain-smoking gwaais, knocking back the G&T, bullying the younger generation and bitching about how the damn' butcher never leaves enough fat on nowadays. It has been said, with some justification, that they live in a perpetual 1950s time capsule. It has this to be said for it: they're very happy and they're all sickeningly healthy on it (and they eat a fried breakfast every morning, as they have done all their lives).
Quibble: Does poor Carol ever get a good come?
Yeah, on the 'plane next day, in the best sex scene. The one that isn't in the story.
This is just great! I love your voice, rich in all kinds of personality-touches like colloquialisms and humor, and especially the youthful abandon of the characters, how they fall so easily to horseplay and good-natured carping, which is so much fun, like a Coen brothers movie or a French farce.
This was, for me, the tops. I love flattery laid on with a trowel, especially when you consider the source. Thanks, PleaseCain.
Spline Duck said,
I don't know about SA, but I was told long ago that "amongst" was archaic.
I got in a knot about this and consulted Lisala. She sent a whole essay in reply (appended, with her permission - thanks, Lisala) but the bottom line is, "No, it isn't." Having thought about it, I tentatively conclude that, around here, we switch between "among" and "amongst" depending on the word that follows it, and pick the alternative that comes most trippingly off the tongue:
among others
amongst a community
Thanks again, everybody.
Nat
Lisala's essay on "amongst."
It is not archaic; it is dialectical in that in both Britain and the U.S. "amongst" is more common in some geographic areas than others. According to the OED, which maps amongst to among (i.e. identical in usage):
Less usual in the primary local sense than among, and, when so used, generally implying dispersion, intermixture, or shifting position.
What is really at issue here is the person wanting to use "between," is misunderstanding the role of "community" as a "collective" or "class" noun - this, by the way, negates the objection to the use of amongst because community is singular. IN this instance among or amonst is used to indicate that the father is one of the community.
I give you the usage note from the thrice blessed, and yet another blessing still, fourth edition of the American Heritage Dictionary, to wit:
According to a widely repeated but unjustified tradition, "between is used for two, and among for more than two." It is true that between is the only choice when exactly two entities are specified: the choice between (not among) good and evil, the rivalry between (not among) Great Britain and France. When more than two entities are involved, however, or when the number of entities is unspecified, the choice of one or the other word depends on the intended sense. Between is used when the entities are considered as distinct individuals; among, when they are considered as a mass or collectivity. Thus in the sentence The bomb landed between the houses, the houses are seen as points that define the boundaries of the area of impact (so that we presume that none of the individual houses was hit). In The bomb landed among the houses, the area of impact is considered to be the general location of the houses, taken together (in which case it is left open whether any houses were hit). By the same token, we may speak of a series of wars between the Greek cities, which suggests that each city was an independent participant in the hostilities, or of a series of wars among the Greek cities, which allows for the possibility that the participants were shifting alliances of cities. For this reason, among is used to indicate inclusion in a group: She is among the best of our young sculptors. There is a spy among you. Use between when the entities are seen as determining the limits or endpoints of a range: They searched the area between the river, the farmhouse, and the woods. The truck driver had obviously been drinking between stops.
I dislike the change suggested by the respondent
This led to a long convalescence in the tiny town where my father lives among other retired people.
because it sounds ugly - largely because it is a string of phrases linked by prepositions - to, in, among.
The original reads:
This led to a long convalescence in the tiny town where my
father lives
amongst a community of other retired people.
This doesn't not break my heart; should it trouble you or some other editorial authority, I would ask how important is the idea of the "community" to the story? Is the sentence meant to emphasize that the father is one of a community of retired people?
This led to a long convalescence in the tiny town where my father lives in a community of other retired people.
Really, rather than wrestle with the one sentence in isolation, I would suggest that you or whomever isolate what is important in the sentence, and what is troubling. If the idea of the community is important, perhaps it could be relocated elsewhere in the text.
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:42:51 -0600
On 13 Jan 2002 05:51:07 -0800, FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com (Father Ignatius) wrote:
First things first: thanks to Des for running Fish Tank and doing what ASSD should, IMHO, be about. And thanks to El Gato, Meme, Jeff, Mat, Rocket Blast, PleaseCain, Spline Duck, Always Horny, Des and Poison Ivan for responding so helpfully and constructively (I shall see Alexis after school) . It's been a very valuable experience for me having this feedback.
I love how this Fish Tank thing works out.
The implications of Write Club constraints include that much written is not thought through properly. For example, it never occurred to me (or anyone else, it seems) before Des pointed it out during the week that the protagonists have incommensurate ages. I'm not sure what to do about it. Carol should become an older divorcee, maybe. As such, though, she wouldn't fit so neatly under Doris's thumb. Maybe I can make the wrinklies younger. Maybe it's a fatal flaw.
I think her behavior and attraction works best if she is young. A lot easier to see her being so wild and crazy at that age (I most certainly was. It is a lot easier to be excited about being caught (but not arrested) then). She might look 18 but be 25 or so, and still adventurous. But some long-term relationships start at 15 or so, so it isn't entirely impossible that she really is still a teen (19, just in the limit).
Henri's age isn't precisely defined. But with a 65 yo dad, it is still well possible that he could be only about 25, and refugee workers can be in that age range too. But even 30-something is still much younger than the rest, and yet not so old that the age gap to a 20-something is unbreachable without seeming to be socially odd.
It is clear, though, that in writing in my own voice I don't over-do it. I find that it is difficult to soft-pedal enough for the Americans who dominate the readership. It takes me back to the day I de-lurked in ASSD to send my first ever flame. As I recall, there was a stunned silence followed by an e-mail of congratulation from DrSpin, Denny wrote to correct my spelling and the rest is history. (Incidentally, I just looked up that post - it's in the Celestial Reviews 351 December 23 thread - and discover that it was made on 6th January 2000. Does this make me a Golden Ager?)
http://groups.google.com/groups?frame=right&rnum=1&thl=0,1427143734,1427120811,1426871750,1427064797,1427032625,1427018435,1427017545,1427005927,1426952148,1426923736,1426780607&seekm=83uhvp%24bnq%241%40nnrp1.deja.com#link1
It's an apposite, informed and well-written thread. It has Mercans, Brits, Ozzies, Yarps, cavemen, pet peeves, Bronwen and Wijit rapping my knuckles, a bum joke by Conjugate and Erin Halfelven being witty and wise. What more could you ask for?
The issue then was some moron (and I use the word here in its sense of "someone who disagrees with me") was complaining of the need for English writers, such as Vicki Morgan, to remove Anglicisms from their stories in order that Mercans could understand them. My memory, though not google, has the impression that the moron in question wanted all stories everywhere to be re-cast in terms that anyone whose horizons were limited to Pitchpipe, South Minnebraska, could readily understand them.
I've seen a little bit of that. Not that I'd complain to death, but one fan did a bit of self-editing to make one of my stories more British, and my own background can make my stories seem unlike some other American-set tales. But then, America isn't all one culture or language throughout either.
"How fucking ridiculous," I thought then and that's pretty much what I think now. I'm an African. I was born in Africa. I've lived in Africa all my life. I can't do South Minnebraska. And nor, I think, should I try to. South African English is as distinct from Mercan English (which is scarcely a universal standard) as, say, Australian English. Ya gotta write what you know.
Also, people talk how they talk, and while you might not need to change spelling to match accent (people still spell the words the same way, just that when you listen to them it might not sound like it), it would seem very odd if they didn't use dialectal words which fit their place.
My choice is to make my stories generic or set them in Africa, predominantly near Cape Town, South Africa, which is where I am.
Sensible. I have a habit of setting stories in the US Midwest, and avoid using settings in some locations in the USA where I'm not so familiar with the area, even if I've been to some of them. I'd rather write about places I know well.
When I attempt generic, a couple of things happen. The first is that that we non-Mercan authors can't seem to make their stories generic enough. We have to appeal to Mercan editors to iron out the non-generic linguistic quirks that we can't even see are there (I have a colleague who write excellent textbooks and who would dearly love to, and deserves to, break into the lucrative Mercan college market. The reviews note the books' high quality and then apply the kiss of death by mentioning the "charming Anglicisms" that we can't even tell are there).
And when the "Anglicisms" get cut out the story flow can be messed with. It takes a seriously good editor to recast the language and not lose something.
The second thing is that the stories so treated are lacking in flavour. They've been sanitised. This seems a pity. An example of a sanitised story is:
http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Lifeguard-cum-Coach.html
(the famous "bromeliads" story). IMHO, that story has a whole lot less oomph than my most popular story,
http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Expanding_Julie's_Sexual_Horizons.html
which uses South African English and includes smatterings of Afrikaans. That's how we talk around here and, if you could here my accent, you'd shit to year mar flet varl sarns < - This is English, BTW: "hear my flat vowel sounds." Not one reader has complained and one Kiwi even said, "It's a nice little Yappie story," 'Yappie' or 'Yarp' being slang in NZ, and elsewhere, for 'South African.'
So, after all that, I guess the point is that, if you're going to put in local flavour, do it right. That means, amongst other things, don't over-do it. If you do it right, the reader should be able to pick up enough of your meaning from context.
Sure, enough context should work fine. I try to do that, but you know (probably better than I, as I've got only minor complaints regarding American culture and language) that one hard part is recognizing what stuff needs clarifying. It helps to have some readers/editors/helpful author friends from elsewhere check things out, and see what they need explanations for.
Maybe a link to a glossary, or one at the end would be helpful for poor dumb Okies like myself.<G>
Hmmm. That's one of those never-ending arguments. My view: glossaries are a clumsy pain and a testament to authorial failure. I'd much rather cut back or use context to exhibit meaning more clearly.
They are a useful shortcut, though, for giving those who didn't get them from context right away. Best stuck in at the end of a tale, rather than the beginning. Also, if you have a web page you can do a glossary of common terms someplace, and point readers to it rather than attaching it to your story.
But in-context explanations do help. However, I have some nice volumes of classic books done for reading by young people, and they have lots of margin notes (large books, 8x11" body text plus big margins) which help explain any unusual terms and definitions.
In an HTML/hyperlink environment, I could see putting in links for any new/unusual terms, as another way to work around the glossary issue.
The "decadent colonial atmosphere" is as contemporary as this weekend, so "sports bra" is not anachronistic. As we speak, my father and Doris and the rest of the wrinklies are lizarding round the braai, chain-smoking gwaais, knocking back the G&T, bullying the younger generation and bitching about how the damn' butcher never leaves enough fat on nowadays. It has been said, with some justification, that they live in a perpetual 1950s time capsule. It has this to be said for it: they're very happy and they're all sickeningly healthy on it (and they eat a fried breakfast every morning, as they have done all their lives).
Even in the USA, there are places where the situation can seem out of place in time and culture (with other places in the states) but be quite contemporary. I felt that the opening situation made it seem contemporary in period, if not exactly defined.
Topical references to real world events which are well known does help, too. Not exactly, but I simply couldn't see your story being from before the 1980s, and not likely before the 90s. A decade range is fairly safe, I think. Of course, stories which mention government leaders and specific events are more clear, but I try to avoid doing too much of that.
Why shouldn't stories be vague in time, if the situation can fit a broad range?
On a related theme, in my JZL story I want to be vague about the Roe. vs. Wade decision, but I do still need to mention it. I'm just not quite sure how precise I want to be about the issue. But there isn't any way to mention abortion as a last-ditch option, or something that some girl did, without getting into the legal vs. illegal (and expensive) means.
It does fall into things to think about leaving out of the story, except that it was something that we talked about, especially after the late-period scare (once is more than enough for that. I don't know who else has faced that worry, without being in a situation where it is a cause for celebration, but knowing that abortion was an option, if not a desirable one, makes a big difference).
Quibble: Does poor Carol ever get a good come?
Yeah, on the 'plane next day, in the best sex scene. The one that isn't in the story.
Also, unless she is a very unusual girl, in her room when Henri didn't get to be with her. I suspect that Henri felt a bit of compulsion for a bit more at those times too.
Unless, of course, there was some opportunity for bedroom hopping which also get left off the story :-)
Spline Duck said,
I don't know about SA, but I was told long ago that "amongst" was archaic.
I got in a knot about this and consulted Lisala. She sent a whole essay in reply (appended, with her permission - thanks, Lisala) but the bottom line is, "No, it isn't." Having thought about it, I tentatively conclude that, around here, we switch between "among" and "amongst" depending on the word that follows it, and pick the alternative that comes most trippingly off the tongue:
among others
amongst a community
I have my own small problem with word choice - I am going towards something or toward it? My grammar checking program says that if I say towards it is a Britishism, and yet I've done it that way so much I sometimes forget its advice.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: oosh
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 20:03:11 GMT
FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com (Father Ignatius) wrote in news:6302d417.0201130551.3aa1cf6@posting.google.com:
Lisala's essay on "amongst."
..Really, rather than wrestle with the one sentence in isolation, I would suggest that you or whomever isolate what is important ...
whoever!
O.
From: Desdmona
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 13 Jan 2002 23:00:45 GMT
From: FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com (Father Ignatius)
First things first: thanks to Des for running Fish Tank
I'm enjoying it, and it couldn't be a success without all those who participate so thanks all around!
<snip> lots of fine explanantions
Maybe a link to a glossary, or one at the end would be helpful for poor dumb Okies like myself.<G>
Hmmm. That's one of those never-ending arguments. My view: glossaries are a clumsy pain and a testament to authorial failure. I'd much rather cut back or use context to exhibit meaning more clearly.
I don't think I totally agree with you on this point Nat. I do agree that context can be a useful tool in clearing up distinctive dialects and flavorful terminology, but I also think that a simple glossary could be used to good advantage.
To be honest, I pretty much surmised from context alone what most of the unfamiliar words [to me] meant by context alone. But your further explanation in this post brought them alive for me. Sure I could search out definitions, (not likely that I would) but the information coming from the man that lives it is so much more personal and in my case, will help me to remember the true meanings. So I guess my point would be I like the idea of a glossary, especially if it's written with a personal flare.
For example, it never
occurred to me (or anyone else, it seems) before Des pointed it out during the week that the protagonists have incommensurate ages. I'm not sure what to do about it. Carol should become an older divorcee, maybe. As such, though, she wouldn't fit so neatly under Doris's thumb. Maybe I can make the wrinklies younger. Maybe it's a fatal flaw.
My dear Man, you've written the character of Doris with such a personality that I can't imagine anyone at any age being able to ignore her, but consider also that at any age, grandmothers rule ... whether they are like Doris or they are a sweet-natured granny. And a further note on this point, Henri is the one who has been bartender, chef, and all around slave so it isn't like his age has protected him from being under anyone's thumb.
And finally, it can't really be considered a flaw if I'm the only person who even noticed the age difference. More likely you just stumbled across my current pet peeve. (Making the female a teenager simply because it's popular in sex stories when it makes more sense that she's actually older)
And yes Jeff (I saw your note downthread) ... I know it's all possible. It's also possible that he's an amputee and blind in one eye. But darn it, I want an explanantion. It's not fair to make a story so witty and intelligent and then slip in the teen cliche for stroke value. It just seems like cheating.
Des
PS. I hope you don't do a thing to the "wrinklies" Nat ... they're fabulous!
From: dennyw
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 15:04:18 -0800
On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 20:03:11 GMT, oosh <oosh@gmx.NOSPAM.net> held forth, saying:
FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com (Father Ignatius) wrote in news:6302d417.0201130551.3aa1cf6@posting.google.com:
Lisala's essay on "amongst."
..Really, rather than wrestle with the one sentence in isolation, I would suggest that you or whomever isolate what is important ...
whoever!
O.
<mode:KG>
whatever!?
</mode>
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 12:45:40 +0200
"Nicholas Urfe" <nickurfe@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:5a5d3dd2.0201130904.2592e8b1@posting.google.com ...
[ ...]
Fishtank is one of those loverly things I keep meaning to nip into one of these days, when I'm so inclined, when the time is right, when I've
Pity you blew it my posting cuyahoga to ASSM first.
WRM: this culture clash stuff cuts both ways. I needed to ask an American to explain the difference between "blowing someone off" and "blowing someone." Apparently she got the choice of being amused or offended by the question. Luckily for me, she chose amusement.
"Billy, in one of his nice new sashes,
Fell in the fire and was burned to ashes.
And now, although the room goes chilly,
I haven't the heart to blow poor Billy."
"Ruthless Rhymes for Heartless Homes"
Where was I? Oh, yes.
got a spare moment, you know the drill. - A round of polite golf claps for Desdemona, and on we go.
Cricket, for preference. But that's just me.
Goddamn, though. I have GOT to learn me some Afrikaaner slang. That shit is wack. Dutch, right? And German? And indigenous terminology?
Afrikaans is predominantly Dutch. It's simpler than Dutch - it has fewer tenses, fex, and reflects that it's a language of a simple, straightforward people. I'm told that South Africans visiting the Netherlands get funny looks when trying to make themselves understood in Afrikaans because it sounds like baby-talk, as BASIC is to Java.
The vocabulary is oddly influenced by, fex, the fact that all Afrikaans speakers originally travelled by ship. Thus the Afrikaans for "kitchen" is "kombuis" which, in Dutch, means "ship's galley." And there are odd words from, fex, Malay, such as "mooi" (pron. to rhyme with "coy"), meaning "pretty." This goes with the Afrikaans "nooi" ("girl, maiden"). In "Housewife 1946 - Franschhoek" Jannie gets to naai a coy mooi nooi.
The story adverts to the most famous of all Cape "ghommaliedjies" (lit. "little drum little songs"), "Daar kom die Alibama [sic]" - "There comes the Alabama." This is a reference to the Confederate raider, CSS Alabama. "Die Alibama" visited Cape Town a couple of times during the American Civil War under the command of Admiral Semmes and famously captured the Federal USS "Sea Bride" in Table Bay (just near Robben Island, where Nelson Mandela spent all those years in jail) while the excited burgers watched from the slopes of Table Mountain. It was better than TV, folks, and when, some months later, an idling urchin lolling on the slopes of Lion's Head saw the ship coming back from, um Sumatra, or someplace, he raced excitedly into town shrieking "Daar kom die Alibama!" Everyone flooded out hoping for more entertainment at the expense of both Federal and Confederate taxpayers and the song was born while they waited fruitlessly.
This is on-topic, by the way, because in the middle of the song, it veers off to "Nooi, nooi, die rietkooi, nooi/Die rietkooi is gemaak," etc.
http://users.erols.com/kfraser/confederate/songs/alibama.html (where it has music you can langarm to, if so inclined.)
The whole thing comes down to, "Hey, girlie, the reed-bed's made for me to sleep on," which, I hope we can agree, is a very proper tack for any song about a naval engagement to take. Actually, if you care to go for a stretch, "kooi" only means "mattress" in the naval sense (see "kombuis," above) and you can argue, if you choose, that the song means that the Alabama is preparing a marital couch for the "Sea Bride on the bottom of the ocean. Pretty damn poetic, huh?
(Yappie? Yarp?)
Oi. <Deep breath> The common Afrikaans Christian name, "Jacobus" contracts to "Japie" (pron. "Yarpie") (alternatively "Kowie," pron. "Cawvy," but that's a side issue.) So many foreigners here so many South Africans call each other "Japie" that hey have taken to calling us "Yarpies" or "Yarps."
There's a revolting traditional Afrikaans volkliedjie called "Japie, my Skaapie" which means "Little Jacob my little sheep." Affectionate diminutive. Ag, shame.
[ ...]
"open" works are works that are open to the reader's interpretation; that, in fact, depend on the reader doing a little work to puzzle out the meaning. "Closed" works are those that presuppose everything needed to work out the story is present within the story itself: hermetically sealed; a black box.
Ach, szo? <makes note>
Braai free!!!!! - Of course, "gwaai" only turns up about 650 hits, the top listings of which are all about the Gwaai Valley in I think Zimbabwe. So there are still a few bugs to work out of this system.)
Nah. System's working fine. The Gwaai Valley is where they grow all that superabundance of surplus tobacco that it is Doris's patriotic duty to consume.
By the by: anyone who thinks South Minnebraska is generic, or normal, or staid, or utterly without local color and delightful regional turns of phrase, is either a barking mad benighted furriner - or has been a fish so long they can't see the water. Uffda.
Bill Bryson - of Des Moines, Iowa, and who spent twenty years out of water in Britain - is my chief informant on Middle America and he says different in "The Last Continent."
Yes. Such snarkiness can be overdone, but not just in terms of local
Define "snarkiness." Around here, it means "bitchy sarcasm."
color: or, rather, local color is more than just linguistic quirks. Clothing; haircuts; inside jokes; the way you hold a cigarette; the drinks poured; the music on the stereo; the books on the shelf; the comics on the coffee table (the fact that there are comics, and coffee tables, or maybe it's a grubby white longbox in the corner with mylar sleeves sticking up above the edge); the movies everyone's seen; the TV shows everyone disdains; the airports one expects to see shoehorned into Write Club stories at the last possible minute - all of these are (can be) as unique as they are universal, or some such pithy paradoxical summing-up. It's all fertile ground for local color to rear its wonderfully shaggy little head. It's all a reminder that Starbucks and McDonald's haven't yet ground the whole mess down into a flat orangey paste with whipped cream smeared into the corners. It's all a key to bodying forth that specific sense of a time and a place and real people who moved through it that's so goddamn IMPORTANT. Because it's paradoxical, but true: the more specific you are, the more universal you can be.
Yowzer. <round of respectful applause>
It's just so long as it doesn't call attention to itself. Overly much. - Which is terribly subjective, and note how we tend to leave the reader out of that construction entirely, presuming it to be an inherent quality of the work, when, in fact, it's a judgement that only the readers can make, based on their reading..?
Is it only me or does everyone else also find, when reading Urfe, that the onset of dizziness means it's too long since they last took a breath?<gaaaasp>
But hell. Bring it the fuck on. Damn the gwailohs, sez I. Full speed ahead.
Best,
- n.
Sweet boy.
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 13:07:08 +0200
"Poison Ivan" <poisoniv1@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a1sequ0884@enews3.newsguy.com ...
"mat twassel" wrote ...
... a bunch of good stuff ...
Thinking about it more, I think I agree with Mat about the structure of the story. It feels off-balance. I think there is a strong plot hidden under the covers here, but it's glossed over. There needs to be more focus on the convalescence and how this liaison helps the two people move on with their lives.
Yep. Agreed.
By the way, not many stories invite this type of criticism. Most stories don't have enough depth and nuance to talk about amplifiying this point and diminishing this other one.
Aw, gee. <blush><shuffle>
Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to fix it without a major rewrite. I'm not sure if Father Nat is inclined to try a big rewrite, but if he did, I wouldn't mind seeing it again in the Fish Tank.
He does. Dunno when, though. And thanks a whole bunch.
Poison Ivan
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 13:20:26 +0200
"Desdmona22" <desdmona22@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020113180045.11683.00001220@mb-mo.aol.com ...
From: FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com (Father Ignatius)
Maybe a link to a glossary, or one at the end would be helpful for poor dumb Okies like myself.<G>
Hmmm. That's one of those never-ending arguments. My view: glossaries are a clumsy pain and a testament to authorial failure. I'd much rather cut back or use context to exhibit meaning more clearly.
I don't think I totally agree with you on this point Nat. I do agree that context can be a useful tool in clearing up distinctive dialects and flavorful terminology, but I also think that a simple glossary could be used to good advantage.
Something tells me the time has come to yield gracefully. If only I knew how ...
To be honest, I pretty much surmised from context alone what most of the unfamiliar words [to me] meant by context alone. But your further explanation in this post brought them alive for me. Sure I could search out definitions, (not likely that I would) but the information coming from the man that lives it is so much more personal and in my case, will help me to remember the true meanings. So I guess my point would be I like the idea of a glossary, especially if it's written with a personal flare.
Only the group bully gets a personal flare.
For example, it never
occurred to me (or anyone else, it seems) before Des pointed it out during the week that the protagonists have incommensurate ages. I'm not sure what to do about it. Carol should become an older divorcee, maybe. As such, though, she wouldn't fit so neatly under Doris's thumb. Maybe I can make the wrinklies younger. Maybe it's a fatal flaw.
My dear Man, you've written the character of Doris with such a personality that I can't imagine anyone at any age being able to ignore her, but consider also that at any age, grandmothers rule ... whether they are like Doris or they are a sweet-natured granny. And a further note on this point, Henri is the one who has been bartender, chef, and all around slave so it isn't like his age has protected him from being under anyone's thumb.
True. Okay, Carol's going to become mid-thirtyish and freshly-divorced.
And finally, it can't really be considered a flaw if I'm the only person who even noticed the age difference. More likely you just stumbled across my current pet peeve. (Making the female a teenager simply because it's popular in sex stories when it makes more sense that she's actually older)
I don't think that was my motivation. I just wanted someone who couldn't say "no" when summoned to a wrinklyfest. Teenagers don't have stroke value for me. I spend too much time dealing with them. A woman has to interest me before she can excite me. An example of an interesting woman, for me, is Rose in DrSpin's "Why Rose 36 Cried."
Part 1: Make Me Smile
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=drspin+rose+36+cried&hl=en&group=alt.sex.s tories.moderated&selm=23617asstr%24955411805%40assm.asstr.org&rnum=2
Part 2: Scars and Bruises.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=drspin+rose+36+cried&hl=en&group=alt.sex.s tories.moderated&selm=23618asstr%24955411807%40assm.asstr.org&rnum=1
Sorry for big, messy URL's but ASSTR's search engine is down as I write.
And Rose, by the way, would have no trouble telling Doris to fuck off and leave her alone. And she would have been exhilarated, not downcast, by the breakup of a bad relationship.
Hmmmm. All this reminds me how Carol got to be a teenager in the first place.
[ ...]
PS. I hope you don't do a thing to the "wrinklies" Nat ... they're fabulous!
K. The wrinklies stay.
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 14 Jan 2002 12:12:14 -0700
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote: [ ... ]
WRM: this culture clash stuff cuts both ways. I needed to ask an American to explain the difference between "blowing someone off" and "blowing someone." Apparently she got the choice of being amused or offended by the question. Luckily for me, she chose amusement.
Less on topic, I had to explain "switch" to a person whose foreman sometimes told him to switch machines and sometimes told him to switch his machine ON.
And once, a few years ago I heard someone ask Mary if her husband, John, were in the doghouse for something he had said. "Not us," she replied, - they were both admirers of cats - "he'd be in the cat house instead."
Afrikaans is predominantly Dutch. It's simpler than Dutch - it has fewer tenses, fex, and reflects that it's a language of a simple, straightforward people. I'm told that South Africans visiting the Netherlands get funny looks when trying to make themselves understood in Afrikaans because it sounds like baby- talk, as BASIC is to Java.
As I heard the story, Dutch preachers came over to SA and were told that the people there spoke "bad" - unrammatical - Dutch. After hearing the actual speech, they said "No. That is a different language, and a fascinating one."
The vocabulary is oddly influenced by, fex, the fact that all Afrikaans speakers originally travelled by ship. Thus the Afrikaans for "kitchen" is "kombuis" which, in Dutch, means "ship's galley." And there are odd words from, fex, Malay, such as "mooi" (pron. to rhyme with "coy"), meaning "pretty." This goes with the Afrikaans "nooi" ("girl, maiden"). In "Housewife 1946 - Franschhoek" Jannie gets to naai a coy mooi nooi.
All the native tribes and all the immigrant groups had a chance to contribute some words to the stewpot. Like US English in that way. People in New York City have "stoops" instead of front porches.
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c anon584c@nyx.net fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 15 Jan 2002 13:24:30 -0700
Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 14 Jan 2002 12:12:14 -0700, Uther Pendragon <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote:
foreman sometimes told him to switch machines and sometimes told him to switch his machine ON.
That sounds like someone not using usual USA'n conventions, but then we are a polyglot nation and it can be confusing. So many people here speak American only as a second language (people from UK or Australia who come here might never learn it, thinking they can get by with their native tongue :-)
The actual person who told me this spoke English as a second language, and not well - at that time. His first language was Spanish.
(And you can read many histories of Medieval times in which one or another person "assists" at mass. No they don't. They attend mass. Which is "assister a`" in French.)
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote:
Afrikaans is predominantly Dutch. It's simpler than Dutch - it has fewer tenses, fex, and reflects that it's a language of a simple, straightforward people. I'm told that South Africans visiting the Netherlands get funny looks when trying to make themselves understood in Afrikaans because it sounds like baby- talk, as BASIC is to Java.
As I heard the story, Dutch preachers came over to SA and were told that the people there spoke "bad" - ungrammatical - Dutch. After hearing the actual speech, they said "No. That is a different language, and a fascinating one."
I've heard a number of stories, but the one which seems most likely is that the originating language wasn't Netherlands Dutch but something else (or a mix of something elses) from Europe and elsewhere. It borrows from Dutch, but also from others. I can't recall which (if any) specific language was supposed to be the core of the thing, but I'd guess that it is far different from a simple dialect difference.
Well, that contradicts both what Nat said up above and what we know of history. Cape Province was once a colony of the Netherlands. And the Transvaal and the Orange Free State were founded by settlers from the Cape who were unhappy about British colonial policies.
Who brought the other language (had to be German or Flemish to be anything like Dutch and what Afrikaans is now)?
Afrikaans borrows from other languages, but in a section Nat's post which I've cut, also from sea-faring Dutch.
(On the borrowing of American English) I've taken to using "picanto" in the midst of English speech. "Hot" doesn't hold the concept; it could mean caliente.
There is a great line in Monsarrat's (sp ?) The Cruel Sea where the American commander of a convoy wants to tell the British sea Captain to ride herd on one of the ships. Suddenly he remembers that the person isn't really English; he's Canadian. He'll know what "ride herd on" means.
I wonder what people from across the pond think when they read an American story of a peaceful drive. Suddenly the story mentions that the driver's wife is "riding shotgun."
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c anon584c@nyx.net fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 01:04:02 +0200
"Uther Pendragon" <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote in message news:1011126269.646055@irys.nyx.net ...
Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote: On 14 Jan 2002 12:12:14 -0700, Uther Pendragon <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote:
foreman sometimes told him to switch machines and sometimes told him to switch his machine ON.
'Minds me of a SAfricanism that regularly confounds benighted foreigners: "Just now."
Distinguisheth three types, allegedly.
1.) "Just now": indefinite future. "I'll mow the lawn just now, darling."
2.) "Juuuuust now": beyond the indefinite future; you might as well give up. "I'll paint the porch juuuuust now, darling."
3.) "Just now": recent past. "I only just now cleaned this fucken kitchen and now look at the mess. Shees, you know, you bladdy kids ..."
Afrikaans is predominantly Dutch. It's simpler than Dutch - it has fewer tenses, fex, and reflects that it's a language of a simple, straightforward people. I'm told that South Africans visiting the Netherlands get funny looks when trying to make themselves understood in Afrikaans because it sounds like baby- talk, as BASIC is to Java.
As I heard the story, Dutch preachers came over to SA and were told that the people there spoke "bad" - ungrammatical - Dutch. After hearing the actual speech, they said "No. That is a different language, and a fascinating one."
I've heard a number of stories, but the one which seems most likely is that the originating language wasn't Netherlands Dutch but something else (or a mix of something elses) from Europe and
I said "predominantly Dutch" and so it is (http://www.southafrica.com/forums/printthread.php3?threadid=1572). Flemish happens to be the European language that sounds most like Dutch but I don't believe Flemish has any specially great influence. I mentioned that a couple of Malay words came in (Cape Town still has a "Malay Quarter" - http://www.owls.co.za/english/bokaap.htm) including <ontopic>"naai"="fuck"</ontopic>. The architecture of the Afrikaans Language Monument (http://www.southafrica-travel.net/westcape/cawi_02.htm) reflects the relative importance of various seed languages. The shortest of the three column in that picture is Malay, I seem to remember being told. I forget what the others were but I should point out that there are other, much higher columns elsewhere on the monument. Those, um, mamelons(?) - the little hemispherical bumps - are also replete with symbolism which I never quite got my head round - is the politically-incorrect word "Hottentot" trying to dig its way out of my memory? (http://www.unb.br/il/liv/crioul/textos/ernst.htm) I was shown over the monument by a thirteenth-generation Afrikaner called MacDonald, who couldn't speak English, so I'm a bit foggy on the fine detail.
I think French gets some credit: the language memorial is pretty near Huguenot territory where the French settled and, God bless them, started the Cape wine industry after the St. Bartholomew's Eve massacre. I can't even recall if English gets a walk-on part. But <louder> its predominantly Dutch.
elsewhere. It borrows from Dutch, but also from others. I can't recall which (if any) specific language was supposed to be the core of the thing, but I'd guess that it is far different from a simple dialect difference.
Well, that contradicts both what Nat said up above and what we
I was contradicted? My world is flying apart.
know of history. Cape Province was once a colony of the Netherlands. And the Transvaal and the Orange Free State were founded by settlers from the Cape who were unhappy about British colonial policies.
I think the explanation is that Afrikaans didn't spring from nowhere. It was deviating imperceptibly from Dutch as settlers spread out over generations into notably diffuse communities ("Boer" simply means "farmer" and they were farming areas so arid that it takes an acre or more to support a single grazing sheep) and mixed with other languages.[1] It's a matter of opinion when it could be said to be a different language and opinions differ wildly on that. Some people were still calling it Dutch after WWII, others recognised the distinction before the Anglo-Boer War.
Exemplifying, an Afrikaans word found in South African English is "nagmaal." Originally, it meant a community gathering where families would converge on a gathering point, maybe travelling many days to get there. Everyone would catch up on social and commercial intercourse, the dominie would (of course) be there to preach Dutch Reformed hell-fire and solemnise the unions that had occurred. There was great socialising and forming of new unions for next nagmaal (and the frequency of nagmaals was influenced by the need for the fruit of these to be born in wedlock). It was a community that needed a word like that. It literally means "night time," by the way, suggesting to me that it was a special occasion to have bonfires. In general, the frugal Dutch would tend to use God's sunlight to the fullest and tend to be abed in the hours of darkness.
These days, we use the word to mean an infrequent family gathering: "Ja, we're having a total bladdy nagmaal this Christmas. The whole bladdy family's coming, even Tannie Liesbeth from Berkeley East, ek se."
There is a great line in Monsarrat's (sp ?) The Cruel Sea where the American commander of a convoy wants to tell the British sea Captain to ride herd on one of the ships. Suddenly he remembers that the person isn't really English; he's Canadian. He'll know what "ride herd on" means.
Very apposite. We're pretty up-to-speed these days, thanks to movies and TV (which, being and instrument of the devil, came late to South Africa, being held back until the Seventies by the forces of righteousness) but back in the Forties, it was a foreign language. Anyone who wants to see the pinnacle of achievement of made-for-TV movies is recommended to the 6-video set of Evelyn Waugh's "Brideshead Revisited" which, inter many alia, features some very cleverly done non-comprehending conversations between Brits and Yanks on a transatlantic liner. The single Canadian character in the story is somewhat suspicious, of course.
I wonder what people from across the pond think when they read an American story of a peaceful drive. Suddenly the story mentions that the driver's wife is "riding shotgun."
These days, we'd get it. Far enough back, we'd crinkle our brows wondering if the Salem witches hadn't switched from brooms, or something.
[1] Afrikaans filtered into other languages, too. Fex, the Shona for "blanket" ("gumbeza") derives from the Afrikaans "kombers." It's interesting that the English word "brief" (memorandum) unified with the Afrikaans "briewe" (letter) to mean "certificate" in the Kimberley diamond diggings: the claims were described in "briefies."
[2] Interestingly enough, Japanese has invaded Zulu: the Zulu for pick-up is "isuzu." After SA wins the next soccer World Cup, as I understand we're scheduled to do, I expect we'll have infusions of Korean.
Enough of this kak. Goeie nag, mense.
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 18:48:27 -0600
On Wed, 16 Jan 2002 01:04:02 +0200, "Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Uther Pendragon" <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote in message news:1011126269.646055@irys.nyx.net ... Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote: On 14 Jan 2002 12:12:14 -0700, Uther Pendragon <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote:
foreman sometimes told him to switch machines and sometimes told him to switch his machine ON.
'Minds me of a SAfricanism that regularly confounds benighted foreigners: "Just now."
Distinguisheth three types, allegedly.
1.) "Just now": indefinite future. "I'll mow the lawn just now, darling."
2.) "Juuuuust now": beyond the indefinite future; you might as well give up. "I'll paint the porch juuuuust now, darling."
3.) "Just now": recent past. "I only just now cleaned this fucken kitchen and now look at the mess. Shees, you know, you bladdy kids ..."
I could see how that could confuse. The first and last might be easy to figure out, the middle one could make me wonder when he (or she is going to be getting that paint.
Afrikaans is predominantly Dutch. It's simpler than Dutch - it has fewer tenses, fex, and reflects that it's a language of a simple, straightforward people. I'm told that South Africans visiting the Netherlands get funny looks when trying to make themselves understood in Afrikaans because it sounds like baby- talk, as BASIC is to Java.
As I heard the story, Dutch preachers came over to SA and were told that the people there spoke "bad" - ungrammatical - Dutch. After hearing the actual speech, they said "No. That is a different language, and a fascinating one."
I've heard a number of stories, but the one which seems most likely is that the originating language wasn't Netherlands Dutch but something else (or a mix of something elses) from Europe and
I said "predominantly Dutch" and so it is (http://www.southafrica.com/forums/printthread.php3?threadid=1572). Flemish happens to be the European language that sounds most like Dutch but I don't believe Flemish has any specially great influence. I mentioned that a couple of Malay words came in (Cape Town still has a "Malay Quarter" - http://www.owls.co.za/english/bokaap.htm) including <ontopic>"naai"="fuck"</ontopic>. The architecture of the Afrikaans Language Monument (http://www.southafrica-travel.net/westcape/cawi_02.htm) reflects the relative importance of various seed languages. The shortest of the three column in that picture is Malay, I seem to remember being told. I forget what the others were but I should point out that there are other, much higher columns elsewhere on the monument. Those, um, mamelons(?) - the little hemispherical bumps - are also replete with symbolism which I never quite got my head round - is the politically-incorrect word "Hottentot" trying to dig its way out of my memory? (http://www.unb.br/il/liv/crioul/textos/ernst.htm) I was shown over the monument by a thirteenth-generation Afrikaner called MacDonald, who couldn't speak English, so I'm a bit foggy on the fine detail.
I think French gets some credit: the language memorial is pretty near Huguenot territory where the French settled and, God bless them, started the Cape wine industry after the St. Bartholomew's Eve massacre. I can't even recall if English gets a walk-on part. But <louder> its predominantly Dutch.
OK, I heard that.
I did some looking up on my own. I know more Dutch people that Z-A folk, in person, and I recall a conversation about how Afrikaans wasn't much like Dutch. But that might be just relative - English is a lot less like Dutch :-)
elsewhere. It borrows from Dutch, but also from others. I can't recall which (if any) specific language was supposed to be the core of the thing, but I'd guess that it is far different from a simple dialect difference.
Well, that contradicts both what Nat said up above and what we
I was contradicted? My world is flying apart.
How often does that happen? :-)
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Conjugate
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 20:24:28 -0500
Father Ignatius <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a22cla$18sd$1@news.adamastor.ac.za ...
"Uther Pendragon" <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote in message news:1011126269.646055@irys.nyx.net ...
I wonder what people from across the pond think when they read an American story of a peaceful drive. Suddenly the story mentions that the driver's wife is "riding shotgun."
These days, we'd get it. Far enough back, we'd crinkle our brows wondering if the Salem witches hadn't switched from brooms, or something.
In fact, that's what it means. Witches nowadays do ride about on the backs of shotguns. Partly, of course, it's so that the Spanish Inquisition can have a few unexpected surprises itself. Sort of a self-defense thing. Then, too, there's the impulse to keep up with modernization. They got rid of the brooms as part of the, er, sweeping changes during the industrial revolution. And you use a shotgun if you want to buck(shot) the trend.
And, I understand, if you give it both barrels on takeoff, it gives you a nice boost.
I have a button that says, "Witches ride brooms 'cause nature abhors a vacuum," but it's obviously out-of-date.
Conjugate
who has heard many good reports of shotguns
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 18:38:58 -0600
On 15 Jan 2002 13:24:30 -0700, Uther Pendragon <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote:
Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote: On 14 Jan 2002 12:12:14 -0700, Uther Pendragon <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote:
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote:
Afrikaans is predominantly Dutch. It's simpler than Dutch - it has fewer tenses, fex, and reflects that it's a language of a simple, straightforward people. I'm told that South Africans visiting the Netherlands get funny looks when trying to make themselves understood in Afrikaans because it sounds like baby- talk, as BASIC is to Java.
As I heard the story, Dutch preachers came over to SA and were told that the people there spoke "bad" - ungrammatical - Dutch. After hearing the actual speech, they said "No. That is a different language, and a fascinating one."
I've heard a number of stories, but the one which seems most likely is that the originating language wasn't Netherlands Dutch but something else (or a mix of something elses) from Europe and elsewhere. It borrows from Dutch, but also from others. I can't recall which (if any) specific language was supposed to be the core of the thing, but I'd guess that it is far different from a simple dialect difference.
Well, that contradicts both what Nat said up above and what we know of history. Cape Province was once a colony of the Netherlands. And the Transvaal and the Orange Free State were founded by settlers from the Cape who were unhappy about British colonial policies.
Who brought the other language (had to be German or Flemish to be anything like Dutch and what Afrikaans is now)?
Flemish I think. From Netherlands, but not speaking the usual Dutch. Otherwise, one would think that like most colonial dialects it would have remained a bit closer to the original, rather than changing grammar.
But I can't remember the details of what I read, it has been a while, and I could be totally wrong.
Afrikaans borrows from other languages, but in a section Nat's post which I've cut, also from sea-faring Dutch.
It certainly does have Dutch in it, and the seafaring part makes a lot of sense. Hmm, I wonder if maybe the colonists weren't native Dutch speakers but learned on the boat, and then kept up with their studies without teachers?
I did a bit of web searching, and think that there is too much to learn about it from any quick look. Many languages contributed to it, and I think it is interesting that a language distinct, not a dialect alone, developed so relatively recently. Most languages have been around some time.
- = -
(On the borrowing of American English) I've taken to using "picanto" in the midst of English speech. "Hot" doesn't hold the concept; it could mean caliente.
English has lots of synonyms. Borrowing foreign words sometimes clears up those words which mean too many things. Otherwise, you just need to use more words to clear it up.
There is a great line in Monsarrat's (sp ?) The Cruel Sea where the American commander of a convoy wants to tell the British sea Captain to ride herd on one of the ships. Suddenly he remembers that the person isn't really English; he's Canadian. He'll know what "ride herd on" means.
I wonder what people from across the pond think when they read an American story of a peaceful drive. Suddenly the story mentions that the driver's wife is "riding shotgun."
Hmm, I wonder? It would be nice to know. I have enough exposure to London British (and some other variants) from various sources to get a grasp of some British-set stories, and of course we've had british import TV from BBC and Thames TV for some time to help us out with that stuff. But Irish, Welsh, and Scottish doesn't get quite the same coverage.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Nicholas Urfe
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 14 Jan 2002 16:24:11 -0800
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<a1ud1v$2aeb$1@news.adamastor.ac.za> ...
"Nicholas Urfe" <nickurfe@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:5a5d3dd2.0201130904.2592e8b1@posting.google.com ...
Fishtank is one of those loverly things I keep meaning to nip into one of these days, when I'm so inclined, when the time is right, when I've
Pity you blew it by posting cuyahoga to ASSM first.
Ah, but I could never take advantage of the system without putting in the legwork, first. And anyway, I want instant gratification with Cuyahoga. - Which, I note, has been dutifully lowercased by those who've referenced it; that lowercasing is merely a designer's affectation, and you are hereby released to refer to it however the fuck you like. I know, I know. Big of me.
Afrikaans is predominantly Dutch ...
Thanks, and a bow to the Padre. The shipboard stuff is an interesting angle. Back in the day, when I was creating my history of the future (as all high schoolers are wont to do - they aren't? Geeze. Whatever did they do with all that spare time?), I decided for no good reason, not knowing anything about it, that one of the widespread languages to be spoken by those of Earthly extraction would be 'Kaans, since, you know, I was so very tired of future history people who spoke nothing but Anglic. Or Common. (How common.) So. Interesting to see that there are some apposite reasons it might well have done so. Cultural currency aside.
Define "snarkiness." Around here, it means "bitchy sarcasm."
Well, um, yes. So any extra fillip you drop into a story knowing full well that it's going to cause someone to say something like um, excuse me, wha? one can read as having been done in a spirit of bitchy sarcasm. And thus: snarky. A snarkiness. Which, you'll note has that delightful quality of being a word that feels like what it means - as opposed to onomatopoeia, where a word sounds like what it means. If you follow. "Snarkiness." You (should) know exactly what is meant right off the bat. - Assuming a reasonable familiarity with Anglic.
Is it only me or does everyone else also find, when reading Urfe, that the onset of dizziness means it's too long since they last took a breath?<gaaaasp>
You do know how to breathe, don't you? You stick your finger in the little hole and turn it - Wait. Oops. Wrong movie.
Sweet boy.
You know, Padre, I've been around here longer than you. Bucko. And still with the "boy." Patronise much?
Don't answer that.
Best,
- n.
"I've been out walking. I don't do too much talking these days. These days. These days I seem to think a lot about the things that I forgot to do."
arguably too much talking:
http://www.asstr.org/~nickurfe/ift/
http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Lisala
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 22:26:25 -0800
In article <5a5d3dd2.0201141624.66aa100a@posting.google.com>, nickurfe@yahoo.com (Nicholas Urfe) wrote:
Sweet boy.
Divine, yes.
Sweet?
No. Not sweet.
From: dennyw
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 02:01:33 -0800
On Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:15:44 -0500, "Conjugate" <conjugate@butter.toast.net> held forth, saying:
Stuff about "riding shotgun" and witches snipped
Is this a teaser for Conjugate's 2002 Halloween story?
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: oosh
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 01:24:40 GMT
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote in news:a22cla$18sd$1@news.adamastor.ac.za:
"Uther Pendragon" <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote in message news:1011126269.646055@irys.nyx.net ... I wonder what people from across the pond think when they read an American story of a peaceful drive. Suddenly the story mentions that the driver's wife is "riding shotgun."
I wish someone would explain it to me. It sounds uncomfortable, if not downright dangerous.
These days, we'd get it. Far enough back, we'd crinkle our brows wondering if the Salem witches hadn't switched from brooms, or something.
Nowadays, we keep our besoms discreetly covered.
O.
From: dennyw
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 02:09:29 -0800
On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 01:24:40 GMT, oosh <oosh@gmx.NOSPAM.net> held forth, saying:
"Uther Pendragon" <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote in message news:1011126269.646055@irys.nyx.net ... I wonder what people from across the pond think when they read an American story of a peaceful drive. Suddenly the story mentions that the driver's wife is "riding shotgun."
I wish someone would explain it to me. It sounds uncomfortable, if not downright dangerous.
From the Old West, originally. Stagecoaches often carried shipments of gold from mining towns (and sometimes payroll monies), so, seated next to the driver would be the 'shotgun' - an armed guard, usually armed with a shotgun. (think about the ride a stagecoach had, and it's easy to see that a shotgun gave the best chance of hitting something)
Now, 'riding shotgun' refers to the passenger seat in front. I know the term was used as early as 1962 or so - almost all cars had bench seats then, of course, and 'shotgun' was specifically the window-seat in front. 'Shotgun' was prized especially by those teenage boys who felt they had a good line of chat-up to use on girls who also were out cruisin' around. See "American Graffitti" for a somewhat accurate look at that bit of American teen culture.
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Writerzblocked
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 18 Jan 2002 14:00:22 GMT
dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net
'Shotgun' was prized especially by those teenage boys who felt they had a good line of chat-up to use on girls who also were out cruisin' around. See "American Graffitti" for a somewhat accurate look at that bit of American teen culture.
Or just go downtown in most southern cities in America nowadays. "Cruising main" (as my daddy used to call it) has come back in fashion, it seems.
In fact, the traffic in downtown San Antonio is heavier at midnight on Fridays and Saturdays than any time during the week ...
- -sad, but true - -
WZB
"Write what you want, how you want, and don't worry about the rest of the world. If you do it long enough, eventually they'll catch up."
From: Conjugate
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 22:04:28 -0500
<dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net> wrote in message news:678d4u4ahg7u6v6anrj3d1g3d88dns867n@4ax.com ...
On Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:15:44 -0500, "Conjugate" <conjugate@butter.toast.net> held forth, saying:
Stuff about "riding shotgun" and witches snipped
Is this a teaser for Conjugate's 2002 Halloween story?
Ah, that story that I've tried to get written for, I guess it's only two, Halloweens past. No, but it's not a bad idea. The witches might get a blast out of it. But the story I've had in mind is (on the surface) more mundane, and turns to something horrible quickly.
And I've got two lines of another story that just seemed to stop dead a few weeks ago. Can't figure out why.
Conjugate
From: oosh
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 00:47:44 GMT
dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net wrote in news:onsf4u868gjct1at83f779rmehgmsgjf40 @4ax.com:
Now, 'riding shotgun' refers to the passenger seat in front ...
Thank you very much for putting me out of my misery! I know I should have asked sooner ...
(By the way, Denny: I've just finished a short story. So be warned: if I can persuade myself to think, on re-reading, that it isn't utter crap, I might want some shotgun proofreading. The bad news is that my short story is only 60K.)
O.
From: dennyw
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 01:36:40 -0800
On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 00:47:44 GMT, oosh <oosh@gmx.NOSPAM.net> held forth, saying:
dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net wrote in news:onsf4u868gjct1at83f779rmehgmsgjf40 @4ax.com:
Now, 'riding shotgun' refers to the passenger seat in front ...
Thank you very much for putting me out of my misery! I know I should have asked sooner ...
(By the way, Denny: I've just finished a short story. So be warned: if I can persuade myself to think, on re-reading, that it isn't utter crap, I might want some shotgun proofreading. The bad news is that my short story is only 60K.)
O.
60K words or 60K bytes? Oosh's fans want to know. <g> Bring it on. But be warned that for the next 3 weeks or so I'm packing up my household goods and then moving same.
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: oosh
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:00:06 GMT
dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net wrote in
news:5ffi4ugl6v9imbmq3akq8qo5c6tuu7k4rc@4ax.com:
60K words or 60K bytes? Oosh's fans want to know. <g> Bring it on. But be warned that for the next 3 weeks or so I'm packing up my household goods and then moving same.
Bytes, not words!
My experience of moving house is that a complete rest from proof-reading is the best medicine. I shall call upon another friend on this occasion. And good luck with the move!
O.
From: dennyw
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 15:38:40 -0800
On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:00:06 GMT, oosh <oosh@gmx.NOSPAM.net> held forth, saying:
dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net wrote in
news:5ffi4ugl6v9imbmq3akq8qo5c6tuu7k4rc@4ax.com:
60K words or 60K bytes? Oosh's fans want to know. <g> Bring it on. But be warned that for the next 3 weeks or so I'm packing up my household goods and then moving same.
Bytes, not words!
My experience of moving house is that a complete rest from proof-reading is the best medicine. I shall call upon another friend on this occasion. And good luck with the move!
O.
NOOOO!!! It's a good break from all the work!!!
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: oosh
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 03:10:08 GMT
dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net wrote in
news:1r0k4u4cblhgtlcp59n5hlp0lm0a99pgf9@4ax.com:
NOOOO!!! It's a good break from all the work!!!
You have e-homework!
O.
From: Conjugate
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 15:04:20 -0500
<dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net> wrote in message news:5ffi4ugl6v9imbmq3akq8qo5c6tuu7k4rc@4ax.com ...
On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 00:47:44 GMT, oosh <oosh@gmx.NOSPAM.net> held forth, saying:
(By the way, Denny: I've just finished a short story. So be warned: if I can persuade myself to think, on re-reading, that it isn't utter crap, I might want some shotgun proofreading. The bad news is that my short story is only 60K.)
O.
60K words or 60K bytes? Oosh's fans want to know. <g> Bring it on. But be warned that for the next 3 weeks or so I'm packing up my household goods and then moving same.
Well, I hope this is good news. Is it?
A warning learned the hard way from one who has been there: if you have the movers pick up any furniture, check their manifests before you let them leave (hard to do, I know; I suspect deliberately so). The manifests have codes such as ds for each large item. These mean that the item was, in the case of ds, Dented and Scratched when the movers got it. I had several new items moved, and when some arrived damaged, I looked at the manifest, and sure enough all were marked as pretty banged-up when the movers received them. Attempts to complain were worthless; I had enough trouble getting a statement of charges (not a receipt; I never did receive a receipt) from the company and the driver apparently never completed the paperwork, so the company could not comment one way or the other.
Of course, I was moving from Mississippi, which is approximately a third-world country except that the people are meaner and more stupid, and there is some technicality that maintains it to be part of the US despite vast cultural, ethical, and (im)moral differences between that society and all known civilized lands.
Conjugate
not really bitter - am I? Oh, no!
From: dennyw
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 15:39:55 -0800
On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 15:04:20 -0500, "Conjugate" <conjugate@butter.toast.net> held forth, saying:
A warning learned the hard way from one who has been there:
snipped.
thanks, but this is purely local, and no movers involved.
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Ray
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 11:12:20 -0500
<dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net> wrote in message news:ht0k4ukac5dhc0gqcrnq4l8dnmles50mos@4ax.com ...
On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 15:04:20 -0500, "Conjugate" <conjugate@butter.toast.net> held forth, saying:
A warning learned the hard way from one who has been there:
snipped.
thanks, but this is purely local, and no movers involved.
So, you are finally moving from the dog house back into the main one with the normal people? <g>
Ray
From: dennyw
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:35:04 -0800
On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 11:12:20 -0500, "Ray" <ray1031@ cac.net> held forth, saying:
<dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net> wrote in message news:ht0k4ukac5dhc0gqcrnq4l8dnmles50mos@4ax.com ... On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 15:04:20 -0500, "Conjugate" <conjugate@butter.toast.net> held forth, saying:
A warning learned the hard way from one who has been there:
snipped.
thanks, but this is purely local, and no movers involved.
So, you are finally moving from the dog house back into the main one with the normal people?
What's that word between 'the' and 'people'???
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 19 Jan 2002 12:57:45 -0700
Father Ignatius <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Uther Pendragon" <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote in message news:1011126269.646055@irys.nyx.net ...
I was contradicted? My world is flying apart.
know of history. Cape Province was once a colony of the Netherlands. And the Transvaal and the Orange Free State were founded by settlers from the Cape who were unhappy about British colonial policies.
I wonder what people from across the pond think when they read an American story of a peaceful drive. Suddenly the story mentions that the driver's wife is "riding shotgun."
It was explained by another Yank.
To "ride shotgun" is to sit in the seat beside the driver's seat. It has nothing to do with shotguns except that the shotgun-toting guard on stagecoaches rode beside the driver.
And a "shotgun flat" is equally non violent. (It is an apartment which has all of its rooms in a straight line. Fire a shotgun from the front to the back and you'd hit something in every room.)
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c anon584c@nyx.net fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 19 Jan 2002 21:42:22 GMT
Suddenly the story mentions
that the driver's wife is "riding shotgun."
It was explained by another Yank.
To "ride shotgun" is to sit in the seat beside the driver's seat.
But this is a sex group, so here it means she was six months married and seven months pregnant.
- Mat Twassel
From: oosh
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 03:14:52 GMT
Uther Pendragon <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote in news:1011470264.918901@irys.nyx.net:
And a "shotgun flat" is equally non violent. (It is an apartment which has all of its rooms in a straight line. Fire a shotgun from the front to the back and you'd hit something in every room.)
It sounds tremendously non-violent - and not a great test of marksmanship, either!
O.
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 29 Jan 2002 12:55:51 -0700
nickurfe@yahoo.com (Nicholas Urfe) wrote:
Thanks, and a bow to the Padre. The shipboard stuff is an interesting angle. Back in the day, when I was creating my history of the future (as all high schoolers are wont to do - they aren't? Geeze. Whatever did they do with all that spare time?), I decided for no good reason, not knowing anything about it, that one of the widespread languages to be spoken by those of Earthly extraction would be 'Kaans, since, you know, I was so very tired of future history people who spoke nothing but Anglic. Or Common. (How common.) So. Interesting to see that there are some apposite reasons it might well have done so. Cultural currency aside.
English, or a language deriving from it, is a fairly likely language for a future earth.
It is the second commonest language today, behind Mandarin. And, I would guess, it probably is the most commonly studied "second language." It is written in the Latin alphabet and is an Indo-European language.
Afrikaans, OTOH, is one of two competing languages in the only country in which it is spoken with any frequency. And SA is not a large country. (Under 25,000,000 in 1985) Moreover, the other language is English.
The only chance that a world language will evolve on a basis other than English is a political movement which rejects English as the colonialist's language. I can't see such a movement accepting Afrikaans.
What I regard as much likelier would be a scenario in which English splits up as did Latin in Europe. So that the people of 3,000 mostly speak some language derived from English, but they are no more mutually comprehensible than French and Romanian are today.
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c anon584c@nyx.net fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
From: celia batau
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:01:59 -0800
hi Uther!
"Uther Pendragon" <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote in message news:1012334151.90509@irys.nyx.net ...
It is the second commonest language today, behind Mandarin. And, I would guess, it probably is the most commonly studied "second language." It is written in the Latin alphabet and is an Indo-European language.
where does spanish place? (we'd think with practically two whole continents speaking it (yes even in america though most whites would have one think otherwise) and mexico city being like maybe the first or second largest city in the world, it'd have to be up there) :)
-cb
From: celia batau
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:30:06 -0800
hi Uther!
ack! mexico city is eleventh (we looked it up)! poor chilangos. prolly all that bad air they breathe. ;)
but still don't know what place spanish is in. :(
-celia who thinks spanglish will rule the world
"Uther Pendragon" <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote in message news:1012334151.90509@irys.nyx.net ... It is the second commonest language today, behind Mandarin. And, I would guess, it probably is the most commonly studied "second language." It is written in the Latin alphabet and is an Indo-European language.
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:20:46 +0200
"celia batau" <pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:949789094.399287@news3 ...
hi Uther!
"Uther Pendragon" <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote in message news:1012334151.90509@irys.nyx.net ... It is the second commonest language today, behind Mandarin. And, I would guess, it probably is the most commonly studied "second language." It is written in the Latin alphabet and is an Indo-European language.
where does spanish place? (we'd think with practically two whole continents speaking it (yes even in america though most whites would have one think otherwise) and mexico city being like maybe the first or second largest city in the world, it'd have to be up there) :)
Bigger than Shanghai and Mumbai?
-cb
Third, IIRC.
I was once told there are five languages into which all UN documents are translated and Spanish is one of them. I think another is Russian. I wonder what they do with all those Mandarin documents. Can the fifth be Portuguese?
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:13:54 +0200
"Uther Pendragon" <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote in message news:1012334151.90509@irys.nyx.net ...
nickurfe@yahoo.com (Nicholas Urfe) wrote:
Thanks, and a bow to the Padre. The shipboard stuff is an interesting angle. Back in the day, when I was creating my history of the future (as all high schoolers are wont to do - they aren't? Geeze. Whatever did they do with all that spare time?), I decided for no good reason, not knowing anything about it, that one of the widespread languages to be spoken by those of Earthly extraction would be 'Kaans, since, you know, I was so very tired of future history people who spoke nothing but Anglic. Or Common. (How common.) So. Interesting to see that there are some apposite reasons it might well have done so. Cultural currency aside.
English, or a language deriving from it, is a fairly likely language for a future earth.
It is the second commonest language today, behind Mandarin. And, I would guess, it probably is the most commonly studied "second language." It is written in the Latin alphabet and is an
It is by far the most common second language and by far the fastest-growing. We're half-way to "Star Trek" already. (Three-and-a-Half of Nine?)
Indo-European language.
Afrikaans, OTOH, is one of two competing languages in the only country in which it is spoken with any frequency. And SA is not
We have eleven official languages - as many as the European Union.
a large country. (Under 25,000,000 in 1985) Moreover, the other language is English.
Notwithstanding having, I'm told, the world's highest incidence of AIDS (the site I work at is 1 in 4 HIV+), we're already up to 44,000,000
The only chance that a world language will evolve on a basis other than English is a political movement which rejects English as the colonialist's language. I can't see such a movement accepting Afrikaans.
This is broadly true except in the Western Cape, the only one of the nine provinces to be politically controlled by "Coloureds" (mixed-race). Afrikaans is the language of this population group that was once intriguingly invited by an apartheid-era cabinet minister to "go back where they came from."
What I regard as much likelier would be a scenario in which English splits up as did Latin in Europe. So that the people of 3,000 mostly speak some language derived from English, but they are no more mutually comprehensible than French and Romanian are today.
That's unlikely if only because of the prohibitive production costs on "Star Trek."
Much better if the crews of all discoboli volanti all spoke Latin.
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: celia batau
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 18:30:35 -0800
hi Nat!
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a37ap5$3l$1@news.adamastor.ac.za ...
Bigger than Shanghai and Mumbai?
this thing we just read said it was eleventh. :( (prolly all that human sacrificing? ;)
I was once told there are five languages into which all UN documents are translated and Spanish is one of them. I think another is Russian. I wonder what they do with all those Mandarin documents. Can the fifth be Portuguese?
maybe? or french?
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
don't worry about flirting with suicidal ideation unless it flirts back. -someone in celia
From: Ray
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 21:43:42 -0500
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a37acd$31ks$1@news.adamastor.ac.za ...
"Uther Pendragon" <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote in message news:1012334151.90509@irys.nyx.net ... nickurfe@yahoo.com (Nicholas Urfe) wrote:
That's unlikely if only because of the prohibitive production costs on "Star Trek."
Much better if the crews of all discoboli volanti all spoke Latin.
Sorry Nat,
Not too much chance of that happening since most of the producers, directors and writers involved don't speak Latin. With the exception of only a few career choices, the study of Latin is an elective course only in the US, and I have been led to understand that most Latin classes here are both incomplete studies and under taught.
So I doubt that a Latin version of Star Trek will appear anytime soon. <g>
Ray
-Who loved seeing Star Trek in Japanese .... It's a trip to see Kirk
squeaking like Mickey Mouse.
From: Elf Sternberg
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 22:26:32 -0000
In article <1012334151.90509@irys.nyx.net>
Uther Pendragon <anon584c@nyx.net> writes:
What I regard as much likelier would be a scenario in which English splits up as did Latin in Europe.
I don't consider that likely at all. There were two reasons for why Latin split up the way it did: geographical isolation and the influence of indigenous languages. Unless you want to propose some horrific future event that bombs us back into the Stone Age to create such isolation and drift, I don't see anything quite like what you propose happening.
One of the interesting things about languages is that the more people speak it, the simpler the language becomes - thus it appeals to more people. The most complicated languages are tribal languages spoken by only a few hundred or thousand; English, despite it's reputation as a "complicated" language, is large in word size but actually quite simple in its grammar compared to those with genders for ordinary objects and prefix/suffix collections merely for describing things.
Short of an eschaton, English grammar and its basic words will probably become the only commonplace language in the world by 2100. Either that, or language translation software becomes so ubiquitous, and so capable of understanding not just what we say but what we mean, that everyone will have their own private language and devices will be yet another layer between our own thoughts and our understanding of others.
Elf
Elf M. Sternberg, Immanentizing the Eschaton since 1988 http://www.drizzle.com/~elf/ (under construction)
I have seen the light. I was not impressed.
From: sue
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 30 Jan 2002 16:06:04 -0800
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<a37acd$31ks$1@news.adamastor.ac.za> ...
We have eleven official languages - as many as the European Union.
a large country. (Under 25,000,000 in 1985) Moreover, the other language is English.
Notwithstanding having, I'm told, the world's highest incidence of AIDS (the site I work at is 1 in 4 HIV+), we're already up to 44,000,000
Uhhh you lost me ... If SA has a population of 25 million, then 44 million with AIDS is almost twice the population ...... Or is that the whole continent of Africa? or was 44 mil a typo?
sue
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 31 Jan 2002 07:03:04 GMT
From: qilady@mailandnews.com (sue)
Date: 1/30/02 3:06 PM Alaskan Standard Time Message-id: <9805f48.0201301606.5e255320@posting.google.com>
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<a37acd$31ks$1@news.adamastor.ac.za> ...
We have eleven official languages - as many as the European Union.
a large country. (Under 25,000,000 in 1985) Moreover, the other language is English.
Notwithstanding having, I'm told, the world's highest incidence of AIDS (the site I work at is 1 in 4 HIV+), we're already up to 44,000,000
Uhhh you lost me ... If SA has a population of 25 million, then 44 million with AIDS is almost twice the population ...... Or is that the whole continent of Africa? or was 44 mil a typo?
The way I read it was that the original quoted figure of population (25M) was from a 15-year-old census. Nat, who lives there, had a more current figure of population which stands at approximately 44M (or 43,426,386 (July 1999 est.)*).
Neither figure was wrong or a 'typo.' The later was merely more current that the former.
Concerning the AIDS/HIV+ statistics, I didn't read that Nat was claiming 44M were HIV+, but that approximately 1 in 4 of the 44M are currently diagnosed either HIV+ or with full AIDS. The "notwithstanding" was the clue that the information following was parenthetical in reference and content.
Then again, I could be wrong. I quite often am.
Alexis.
* http://www.photius.com/wfb/wfb1999/south_africa/south_africa_people.html
sue
"Dancing is a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire." - Steven Wright
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
From: dennyw
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:18:36 -0800
On 31 Jan 2002 07:03:04 GMT, alexisinalaska@aol.communicate (Alexis Siefert) held forth, saying:
Concerning the AIDS/HIV+ statistics, I didn't read that Nat was claiming 44M were HIV+, but that approximately 1 in 4 of the 44M are currently diagnosed either HIV+ or with full AIDS. The "notwithstanding" was the clue that the information following was parenthetical in reference and content.
minor correction: he said "(the site I work at is 1 in 4 HIV+)" - which to me refers only to the place of his employment.
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: 31 Jan 2002 15:46:09 GMT
dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net proofed :
minor correction: he said "(the site I work at is 1 in 4 HIV+)" - which to me refers only to the place of his employment.
Dang, googled and you're right. Fine <stomp> Why was I thinking that was a country-wide statistic?
Alexis.
"Dancing is a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire." - Steven Wright
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:23:13 +0200
"sue" <qilady@mailandnews.com> wrote in message news:9805f48.0201301606.5e255320@posting.google.com ...
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<a37acd$31ks$1@news.adamastor.ac.za> ...
We have eleven official languages - as many as the European Union.
a large country. (Under 25,000,000 in 1985) Moreover, the other language is English.
Notwithstanding having, I'm told, the world's highest incidence of AIDS (the site I work at is 1 in 4 HIV+), we're already up to 44,000,000
Uhhh you lost me ... If SA has a population of 25 million, then 44 million with AIDS is almost twice the population ...... Or is that the whole continent of Africa? or was 44 mil a typo?
sue
Estimated 1985 population: 25,000,000
Estimated 2002 population: 45,000,000
Estimated incidence of HIV+ at site where I work: 1 in 4
Implies average annual population growth rate of 3.3%. Yep. It's possible. At one stage Zimbabwe was 4.2%.
All AIDS statistics everywhere far too speculative, of course. No-one dies of AIDS. They die of pneumonia or tuberculosis or whatever. And of course, President Mugabe of Zimbabwe is famous for saying that there can't be any AIDS in Zimbabwe because it's a gay white disease and there are no gays and few whites in Zimbabwe (http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Replacing_the_Follies.html).
Pray for Zimbabwe
Nat
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:31:31 +0200
"sue" <qilady@mailandnews.com> wrote in message news:9805f48.0201301606.5e255320@posting.google.com ...
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<a37acd$31ks$1@news.adamastor.ac.za> ...
Or is that the whole continent of Africa?
Good grief, no. 1997 est. pop. of Africa 743,000,000.
Must be closing in on 900,000,000 by now.
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
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From: El Gato
Re: Convalescence, by Father Ignatius
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 08:27:07 GMT
Interesting little vignette.
Two Positives.
The pace was excellent for a short story. It injected just enough into each character to build a useful picture. Then the character quirks were used to build an interesting situation for some exciting sex. Well done. Good use of dialogue to convey colloquialisms. Harder to do for myself than it looks.<G> "Y'all cum back, now. Yah, heer!" is about as good as I get.
Things to improve.
I enjoy reading stories on the 'net because you get to learn new words. I just wish I didn't have to learn them all in one story. ;-)
Inspanned was easy to get, braais wasn't.
I love the dialogue.
Now I'm thinking a gwaai is something like a cocktail party.
Uh-oh. Scratch the cocktail party. Now I'm wondering if it's a geriatric marijuana party, or one of those 'Smokers' where everyone samples a new cigar. Next we hear Doloris talking about the fire. Is this a 'shrimp on the barbie' thing? I started looking for an Afrikaan to English dictionary. I know this is something small, it doesn't really impact the story that much, but it was a distraction in a story with enough twists to keep me going without it. Maybe a link to a glossary, or one at the end would be helpful for poor dumb Okies like myself.<G>
On to the ending. The story started out hinting of our hero attempting to join the 'mile-high-club' with Carol. Cramped quarters and diffucult timing notwithstanding, that is.<G>
Drats. The other two sex scenes were hot, well written, and interesting. This just left me feeling a little cheated. Now I'm going to have to figure out the engineering needed to perform this challenging feat for mankind. Hmm ..., on second thought I'll just go to Miami and charter a flight.<G>
This was a well written short, the usage of colloquialisms added to the overall flavor, with only a tad too much for my taste. The ending just reminded me of a teaser too much. I'm also wondering if the write-club duel rules had something to do with this?
Thanks for sharing, Nat.
El Gato