A HOT AFTERNOON
In the summer months if the weather is fine My wife Sue and I often had sex outdoors, particularly in parks and woodlands, as well as other public places, we both find it not only erotic in those settings, but the added stimulus of maybe 'being caught; adds to the fun..
In August one hot Wednesday afternoon, I'd arranged to meet Susan in 'The Forester's Arms'. She was still only working mornings then and I'd taken the afternoon off work so that we could have a sexy afternoon to ourselves.
We were to go to a patch of park land we knew and were to have an afternoon of lovemaking under the hot summer sun. It took me longer than expected to reach the pub that day due to traffic, so I was ten or so minutes late in arriving. When I walked in I had a look around for Susan and saw her being chatted up two fellows, the three of them were sitting in a secluded alcove, with Sue sandwiched between the two men, on the crescent shaped bench. She had seen me walk in and when our eyes met she indicated that things were okay at the moment. So I got myself a drink and positioned myself where I could see them, without being too obvious. The pub was practically empty, which was just as well in view of what was starting to happen.
My heart was pounding at the prospect of what maybe unfolding at the moment. Was Susan going to invite these guys for sex with us? That would be really something, or was she merely flirting with them. I studied both men, they were both big rugged outdoor types, who later turned out to be soldiers, they were casually but smartly dressed, the youngest was possibly mid twenties, the other much older later thirties.
I had watched Susan dress that morning, white suspender belt, seamed tan stockings, cream high heeled sandals, flimsy white lacy blouse, and cream wrap over skirt and beige jacket. No panties and No bra. That had been my little dare for her. Her skirt was only mid thigh length, and once in the office, with the temperature as it was she'd have to take off her jacket and her nipples would be clearly visible through the diaphanous blouse. Thanks to Caroline's (her elder sister) influence, Sue had become increasingly agreeable about going out socially with me without underwear in short skirts and translucent tops, but only twice to her office in such a state and both times were 'dares' from Caroline, but Sue had returned in quite a state each time, the erotic effect of being like in a staid office environment certainly turned her on.
It transpired later that the two men had arrived in the car park moments before Susan, Seeing this beautiful 26 year old blonde by herself, they had already eyed her up, when as she got out of her car her wrap over skirt had parted to momentarily show her naked state, a flash not actually registered by her.
The two guys were now touching her up, one hand was on her knee and I saw the other guy undo the button of her jacket. I almost choked on my beer, because as her jacket sprang open, I saw that Susan had discarded her blouse at some point. Both men took a jacket flat and pulled it open, Susan made not the slightest protest as both her breasts were bared to view, only when they tried to remove her jacket totally did she stop them, allowing them to rest her jacket slightly off her shoulders (so that she could shrug it back on quickly), but for the moment keeping her exposed to anyone passing by their booth.
As the two guys caressed her gorgeous orbs, Susan looked across at me, I winked at her and I gave her the thumbs up sign and she grinned. This was our sign, it meant that I was happy with what she was doing and she could continue now regardless, it was entirely up to her how she played it. The guys had now each placed a hand on his own appointed breast, feeling the fullness and the weight and tweaking her already harden nipple. This continued for some minutes with each man taking a turn to bend forward and kiss her nipple. For her part Susan had by then extracted the penis of both men from their trousers, as I occasionally got a glimpse of their knob ends above the table top.I waited in anticipation to see my wife drop her lips around the end of one or both knobs.
I had by now a raging erection in my pants, It was obvious that the three of them intended to have sex (in the pub?), but I was a little unsure of my role in this, I desperately wanted to watch the proceedings.
By now things were getting quite passionate, Susan was openly French kissing each guy in turn, long tongue twisting kissing, as they continued to fondle her breasts and now thrust fingers into her soaking wet quim, whilst her own fingers were eagerly pulling and wanking on the two thick erections in her hands.
They then reached a point where they must have conclude that they had to go else where, Sue stood up straighten her dress and jacket, as the guys adjusted their trousers, as they left she winked at me. Neither guy glanced at me.
I gave them the chance to clear the car park, then raced for my car, I was desperately hoping that Sue would be taking them to where she and I had planned to go that afternoon. In time I saw them turn into the unmade up car park of the forestry commission land. I drove on some 200 yards before parking up and as I left my car grabbing my green fishing coveralls and cap from the back of my car, which would give me some camouflage for what I was about to do. I quickly worked my way back, sweating profusely. I was just in time to see my wife and the two men walking away down the track we would have taken that afternoon, only I'm not so sure if Sue had been with me, whether or not she would have (so willingly) discarded her jacket and skirt to the back seat of the car, for she was now clad only in her stockings and suspenders and slim high heels, but she looked terrific. The guys were naked to their waists, I caught myself looking at how well muscle and fit their upper bodies were, no wonder Sue wasn't passing up this opportunity.
I had to move faster than them, which wasn't difficult and I was able to select a spot with plenty of cover near our love spot. This was a tiny clearing we'd discovered a few months earlier, it was now well foliated and provided excellent cover and was some 100 yards from the beaten track. My luck was really in that day, because they did come to that spot. One of then laid out a car rug, the other had a cool box with wine and beers in, which to me now looked as good as Susan. I had worked up a sweat in my efforts in that heat and with the coveralls on top of my normal clothes I was dripping and much as my wife's pussy.
Within moments I had sussed out the name of the men as Don the older one and Les the younger. They wasted no time, immediately Les laid down and had Susan squat over his face so that He could eat out her flowing juices, whilst she pulled down Don's trousers and pants, revealing his long hard cock, quite a weapon, despite it's full erection, his foreskin still covered half his prick head. He must have measured in at nearly 10 inches (Susan's estimate) and quite thick with it, big thick veins covered it's length and I could see the look of pure lust in Susan's eyes.
I was close enough to see, when she slipped back his foreskin, a fair accumulation of prick cheese around the base of his penis head, I was certainly close enough to hear my wife's
"MMMMMMmmmmmmmmm",
of pleasure as I saw her deliberately lick that cheesy substance off his dickhead with pure sexual relish, before fully taking as much as she could into her mouth, swelling her cheeks with the flesh of this near stranger.
Those first minutes were pure frenzied lust. Sue is pretty vocal in sex at most times and this afternoon, she was not only louder in her groans and moans, she was talking dirty to them. She brought Don off, drinking his cream down and then the guys changed position and she sucked Les to an equally climatic conclusion, at the same time receiving equal pleasure from their tongues on her wet pussy and clit.
After that initial frantic passion, they next settled down to a slower fucking and sucking. The most titillating sight to make my cock twitch again was Susan was now kneeling between Don's legs again sucking on his cock which had already regained full erection, He was laying back flat out and Les (who was almost as well endowed as his older mate) was taking Susan doggie style. His cock was shafting in and out of her pussy, in long slow rhythmic thrusts, when he decided a change was needed. I watched as he placed his cock at her bumhole and pushed. He slid in easily, slick from the juices of her cunt, Susan's exclamation and his let me know he was fully in.
Les let his mate Don, know in no uncertain terms exactly what he was doing and how nice and tight she was, particularly compared to her wet, dripping twat. Susan had naively confessed that his wasn't the first cock up there, but he was certainly the biggest so far, an obvious invitation to the larger cock of Don's. An invite, which had added to the lust of the two guys, but surprisingly she seemed to be liking it, possibly not as much as a normal fucking, but her murmuring of pleasure returned after a minute or so.
After some minutes of Les reaming Susan's arsehole, Don suggested that he'd like to try her arse, without further ado Les pulled out of her arsehole with a distinctive plop and Don relinquished his pleasure of her lips. Now as I said Don was certainly a bigger man, and although he did again slick his juices with Susan cunt juice before entry, he was more difficult for Susan to accommodate in her near virgin arse, and I saw a couple of tears in her eyes as he pushed in, but not once did she protest. But my real delight was not that. Having pulled himself free and seen his mate enter her anal hole, Les now took up the former position of his friend. Presenting his erect cock for my wife's oral administrations.
This actions had the spunk racing to my cock head, because from where I lay, I could plainly see that it was well smeared along it's length with smelly brown shit streaks and just under his cock head a thick shit ring had built up, but what was even more obvious was the head itself, which must have been embedded in her soft anal muck, because it was thick with it. Susan looked at it and to my utter surprise, she grinned, Les took her head and gently pulled her forward, She offered not even a token protest.
As my wife's mouth closed over that foul covered penis I shot my load in my pants, I couldn't help it, it was the most erotically disgusting thing I'd seen. After that initial suck, once again she eagerly and greedily took his cock in as much as she could manage, licking and sucking him totally clean of her own shitty stains, her lust fired up by her own actions, Susan now moved to licking and sucking his balls and then finally what she had done only half a dozen times to me, she started tonguing his anus. To accommodate her Les helped by pulling his arse cheeks wide apart, and I could see her tongue tip going right in, this kept my cock at full attention. Les certainly let Susan know how good it felt.
They now set up a rotation, which got Susan slowly more and more worked up, When moving from her mouth, the guy would spend a few minutes fucking her pussy, then it was into her arse and finally back to her mouth. The cocks coming out of her arse seemed to get dirty each time, but she never once hesitated, far from it, she was now relishing the taste of her rear passage and the guys knew it. Susan's only request was for then to try her in a sandwich of, one in her bum and one in her pussy at the same time which was easily enough arranged and drove her wild. In an intense twenty minutes or so, they gave Susan several climaxes, culminating in her huge orgasm, which could have been heard a mile off. She was hot and wet all over. Both guys had 'cum' a second time. They all laid back on the rug and ice cold wine and beers were passed around, catching their breath. Those beers looked like nectar to me.
As they rested Susan removed her now dishevelled stockings, suspenders and shoes. Don picked up the wine bottle from which He and Susan had been swigging, and inserted it into Susan's pussy, making her laugh with the chill of the glass, He upended it, forcing some wine into her and then clamped his mouth over her whole pussy and let the wine and sex juices flow back into his mouth.
Les for his part had picked up one of Susan's high heeled shoes, and was pushing and pulling the metal tip of the stiletto over one of her now softened nipples, there must have been a sharp edge on the metal because I saw her wince and 'ouch', but I noticed that nipple start to harden again. Next He inserted one heel into her cunt and the other heel into her anus, both men then proceeded to masturbate her with those high heels, This soon got to Susan and she was on her way to a climax again, telling then yelling them to push hardened and deeper, which they did. To my surprise (and Susan's) as they pulled her heels from their respective holes, each man took the heel of his shoe into his mouth to lick and clean it.
They relaxed again, both men lying either side of my wife, touching her up and kissing her from time to time. It was probable they may have finished I thought, or would fit men like these two rise to the occasion again, I believed so. I heard Don ask her what would her husband do if He knew what she was up to this afternoon, which I thought was a scream, I didn't actually catch her reply, but it was something like what would He do if He was in her husband's position. I could hear most of what was said although they spoke quite quietly. But after some minutes my wife laughing pulled on her shoes, stood up and whilst Don broke off a couple of whippy branches, she willingly bent over, touching her toes, legs straight, but apart.
As the blows started to rain down on her upturned bum cheeks, my cock erected again. Although she'd taken a mild S & M scene at the "Rocky Horror Party" Susan had never experienced having her bum abused in this way before now. She had admitted to me an enjoyment from it, and Brian, (The main guy from the RHP) had met up with Sue after that night and had moved to also employing some minor bondage on my wife, whilst to tying her over a chair whilst he did it. Although I could not possibly lay a hand upon her myself, I had longed to witness Susan's punishment at Brian's hand and had attained aroused when she told me of it. I had considered asking her to restart her relationship with him, just for me to view her spankings.
But now I was getting a better showing for as the two men got into the swing of it, sensing that she was not a whimp, they increased the strength and slowed the velocity of their hits. Susan's only audible reaction was 'ooohhhs' and 'Aarrhhs'.
At first I loved the sound of the branches smacking her flesh. Susan's bum was facing my direction and I could see the soft white cheeks of her arse quivering at each stroke. Then I saw the redness rise and as they changed for new branches and increased the severity again, welts began to rise, and she was now gasping at each strike, which was now landing at about one every 20 to 25 seconds. Then they stopped and in a cock jerking way, I could see why, they had started to strike upon the welts and in a few places the skin had broken, a trickle of blood was apparent on her white flesh. Don bent down behind here and kissed and licked her bum cheeks.
Had I been in their fortunate position, I would have ordered her now to present her proud breasts for their punishment, but no, both men had regained their raging hard ons, but also Susan was inflamed and demanded to be fucked, which Don and Les were only too happy to carry out.
Susan lay back on the rug, Don entered her, whilst Les sat and watched. Susan was as sexually arouse as she had been at any point that afternoon, the whipping at certainly stirred things up inside her. As Don screwed my wife, he teased her with his cock, slowing his thrusts, hovering it just outside her vaginal lips, She was desperate for his cock, urging him on like a cheap tart. Sensing the position he had her in, Don now started to get Susan to tell him about some of her naughtier things. Soon she was spilling the beans on our wife swapping parties; about 3 years ago, playing strip cards till she was naked with her 13 year old nephew & his two mates; Brian's bondage and spanking, everything. I could see that both guys were impressed, But Don still hadn't brought Susan off on that climax which she craved, his actions and her own 'confessions' had kept her hot, and still randy.
Don had been asking questions during her confession, some of which I caught, her oldest lover, her youngest, her kinkiest act. Then he had whispered something to her, which had her shaking her head, she was still laughing with him, but it was definitely a 'No I couldn't' answer. He continued and Susan shook her head a few more times, ' No', still giggling then suddenly, I definitely heard her say
'oh, all right then'.
Telling Les to take over from him Don pulled out of her cunt.
With bated breath I wondered what my wife had agreed to do.
Les took up his position and began, very slow, very deep penetrating thrust into Susan's pussy, she had wrapped her long legs around his back. Don now moved up and squatted over Susan's head, they were so close I could have touched them with a long broom handle. I waited with stiffening cock to see my wife ream out his bum hole with her tongue, I was a bit surprised by this action being what he requested as certainly Susan had licked at and around each guy's anal hole during their earlier love making, perhaps she had not penetrated him deeply enough for his real wishes.
I almost gave myself away with a gasp of astonishment and dismay, when I realised just what she had agreed to do, almost as it happened. A thick dark brown turd started to slide from his arsehole. It emerged slowly and he was straining hard, I looked at my wife's face, she was totally composed, her mouth was open and waiting, I saw her tongue lick around her lips, perhaps nervously?, but she looked totally calm. It came on slowly, taking 10 or so heart thumping seconds, till it hung like a big brown cock from his arse. I knew exactly what she had agreed to do, I couldn't believe she had agreed, so easily.
She ran her tongue around the emerging tip and then without haste or hesitation she closed her lips around the turd and moving her head up and down, her lips travelled the length of his shit, the bright red of her lipstick was instantly replaced by a brown smudge.
Then it just broke off and dropped right into her mouth.
Susan's mouth closed over it and her mouth was full, for a few moments she lay there with her cheeks bulging with his foul excrement, then I saw her mouth and jaws moving. She swallowed it quickly and I spurted my cock juice again. It was the most divinely disgusting act I'd ever seen. Another lump of brown shit followed that first and then several smaller pieces, all dropping into her mouth, to be chewed and swallowed, without any hurry. That she'd consented to do it added to the spice for me. Don and Les appreciated it as well for Don had creamed over her boobs and Les and Susan had climaxed together. As an aftermath, two or three smaller pieces plopped from his anus and Susan's mouth opened up for them as well, before she raised her lips to his anus, almost in a gesture of homage to lick and tongue his hole for a further minute or so.
If the two men showed any surprise that a lovely young woman such as my wife would consent and actually do such an act, they didn't show it. Yes they were incredibly aroused, their cocks were still hard, but then again so was Sue, and so was I.
But their afternoon of kinky fun wasn't over yet. Once more they relaxed, with more cold beer and wine. As they lay there, Don was casually stroking her gorgeous breasts with one of the branches that had ruined her bum cheeks for days to come. I heard my wife, without prompting, admit to him that eating his shit wasn't so bad, certainly not anywhere near as horrid as she had feared.
Don asked Susan if she'd like to try something else, without hesitation and questioning what it may be, She readily agreed to it. Don whispered to Les who now walked away. Don and Susan continued to talk in hushed tones for some five minutes before he took her hand and had her stand up and led her over to two small trees. Taking her already ruined stockings, he tied her facing me with her hands bound to the two trees and using His own and Les's leather belts from their trousers, He secured each of her ankles to the lower trunk, which drew her legs really wide apart and naturally had her vaginal region totally open and exposed.
When Les returned He dropped a bundle just out of sight, but handed Don a few pieces of bailer twine, saying that was all He could find. Don used the twine first to bind up Susan's breasts, whilst Les tied each knee to the same trunk that bound her ankles, causing Susan to slip down a little, so that she was now almost squatting and it spread her thighs even wider apart, so far apart now that Les was now able to kneel between her legs and could slip his head between her thighs and lick her pussy and anus, almost without his head touching her flesh. Meanwhile Don was adjusting his handiwork. I could believe how great my wife's boobs now looked, bound around each base, they seemed swollen, certainly her nipples had increased in size. Don bent forward and gently licked each bud, asking her how it felt,
"Oh, god that's fantastic, they 're so sensitive"
Don just grinned at her.
He now went over to the pile that Les had brought back, it was a bunch of stinging nettles wrapped in their shirts. He placed it on the ground right in front of Susan and as she started to realise her plight, I saw a look of consternation move across her face for the first time that afternoon. My cock hardened again.
Les was still nibbling at her exposed vagina. Don took a few sprigs of nettle in his hand covered by his shirt and started to slowly draw the bunch across Susan's creamy and swollen breasts, she bit her lip in an effort not to cry out and I watched amazed as her pink nipples turned to a deep dark red, harden and lift. His actions were slow and precise, causing maximum stinging sensation to my wife's breasts. Her mouth was open and I expected a cry out at any time, then I realised that she was only actually taking deep breaths, an action which I associated with her and early sex activity, she was twisting in her bonds, but that made no difference to what Don was doing. He continued his slow stroking for about five minutes, till it appeared both breasts were aflame in red, and her nipples stuck out at an amazing angle, coat hooks really were the word for how they looked.
Now He slowly beat her boobs with the bunch of nettles, making her tits wobble, by now she was moaning and groaning in a way familiar to me and I knew then she was quite enjoying it and I wondered for a moment it this breast bondage and stimulation would give her an orgasm on it's own, till I realised that Les was still eating her out.
Then Don threw down the bunch and telling Les to move out of the way, He took up a fresh bunch of nettles, His new intention immediately clear to all concerned particularly Susan,
"OH, NO, Please!!!, NOT there" a sobbing plea of pure anguish, as He purposely drew the tips across her flat stomach. She was desperate not to feel those nettles on her crutch region.
"Come on Guys, be fair" She pleaded, " I'll do anything else you want, but don't stroke them on my cunt, I'll drink your piss and eat your shit, or at least I'll try" My cock twitched at that offer. Susan offered to take them home with her, get rid of me, they could do with her as they pleased for as long as they pleased, she'd call in sick for as many days as they wanted. They looked up at that offer.
Don looked at her, He asked Susan how far she'd really go,
"Name it"
"We are due to meet up with three of our mates this evening, we've got leave till Saturday, you would be our sex slave till about lunch time then"
"Okay, Fine", Susan quickly agreed "No problem"
"Wait I haven't started yet", He continued "During our stay not only will you provide all five of us with sex as we require it, in the way we require it, you will serve us as a toilet slave, drinking all our piss and eating our shit, as and when we need to do it, you will eat and drink your own as well, you will only be allowed to drink water freely, no food."
Susan "Okay",
"One of these mates has a big Alsatian dog, you will have to have full sex with that as well"
A brief hesitation, Susan nodded her head, my cock dribbled.
"you do understand what I mean by that" Don asked "tell me"
In a stronger voice that I had thought she should be able to muster at that time, "You will have it fuck me in my cunt and arse and I will have to suck it's dick" Hearing Susan say it so easily and clearly caused me another dribble.
Don now squatted down near Les and they talked in hushed tones for some minutes. he had put down the bunch of nettles and Susan visibly relaxed, But they were leaving her in suspense, was her offer good enough?
"Come on guys, let me down, my tits are burning up here" She begged of them, "I'll keep my promises and do anything else you'd want, ANYTHING."
I could hardly believe it was my wife talking this way. Certainly there was no doubt that she could handle the needs of five men sexually however randy they were, and she'd enjoy it, she could handle drinking all their piss, eat their shit? I didn't know, but I'd love to see her try. Take the dog?, Yes I think she would and could, she had confessed to me an incident at the age of 12, that she and another girl had touched and played with that girl's Labrador dog, not once, but several times. The girl had claimed to Susan that she'd seen her own Mother doing these things to it and sure enough, one afternoon, they spied on her, when she was supposedly alone in the house, the two little girls had seen the woman have 'full sex' with the dog for an hour and half.
"Please"
The men ignored her pleas and continued talking. They both shook their heads at first I wasn't sure if it was in answer to her pleads, but then Don got up, with great deliberation he picked up a few fresh nettles.
With a big grin on his face He looked at her,
"I'm sorry, but Les had just reminded me that we can't accept your offer, at this time",
With that He slowly drew the vicious leaves onto her pudendum between her parted thighs and drew them upwards into the lips of her cunt.
Susan's next plea turned into a yell of pain, She tried to wriggle and squirm, but she was bound too well, My cock dribbled again. Don slowly stroked her cunt region,
"OH, GOD. Please no," Susan was sobbing now, tears streaming down her cheeks, for the first time I was concerned about her well being.
Her initial scream, had now become a sob, then a whimper, She resigned herself to her fate, it was impossible for him to undo the dead.
"You like it now don't you" He stated, rather than asked.
"Nooooooo, I'm on fucking fire, for Christ's sake" Then she giggled "please no more, now".
He didn't stop, He kept on playing those wicked leaves into her. Susan was soundless now, just squirming under the torturous touches, her eyes squinting with the pain of the fire burning her vagina.
When a minute or so later, he picked up some fresh nettles, throwing away the battered ones, I looked at my wife's face, expecting to see the anguish of the arrival of the fresh assault, but now she was relaxed. When he drew those new ones into her pussy, I imagined the prickling of her clitoris and sensitive inner labia lips, a low moan escaped her lips, but this time it was different, it was a moan of satisfying masochistic pleasure, her body shuddered. Don stepped back and grinned.
"Well" He asked?
Susan laughed, "please don't stop, I hate it and I love it, come on do it some more",
He did so, stepping up again, He now knelt in front of Susan opened up her pussy lips with his own bare hands and holding them well apart, He drew those leaves up and down. Susan's body jerked and rocked, low squeals and moans escaped her lips now,
"Oh God, yes, that great, go on" was now the order of the day, even when He took a thicker branch and pushed it right inside her vagina. Les who up till now had been inactive, came forward with a sprig of thin branches from some tree and with Don kneeling was now able to flagellate Susan's still bound and burning breasts, within seconds it was obvious she was about to hit the highest climatic orgasm ever.
When it came she was so vocal, she could have been heard miles away, as her body shuddered, dripping with sweat, the guys stopped their assault. When they released her, my wife fell on her knees, taking Don cock into her mouth, not in gratitude in being released, but for being shown such pleasure, She sucked him hard for a while, then he pulled his erection from her mouth and whispered something, calling Les over. Standing either side of Susan's kneeling form, both men now proceed to pee, hot yellow salty piss, right into her mouth, she took it, gulping as much as she could manage, but the flows were so torrential, that it dribbled out of her mouth, splashing over her breasts.
Since the first time, only five weeks earlier, when she had tasted mine and Steve's piss, I had naively believed she did it just to turn me on (well it sure did), but now I realised that she loved it, as much as the drinking of her lover's spunk and as their golden flow dried up, that's what she got next. Susan now jerked off both men with quick kisses and licks to each cock as well, till they pumped, almost in unison over her face and some flying into her eagerly open mouth. The white fluid slipped down her face, her tongue sought it out, catching a little.
Well that was about it, all three of them were now in total exhaustion, they gathered their things up and made they way off, and so did I.
I had only gone a few yards when I walked straight into them. Of course the soldiers had known I was there, almost but not quite as soon as they reached the spot. In fact Don had placed me within minutes of being inside the pub, as boyfriend/husband, hence the questions, early on. They also believed that Susan knew I was watching, BUT She honestly didn't know at all, hadn't even occurred to her that I would, She went red as a beetroot when she realised what I'd not only seen her being so promiscuous and lewd, but also in particular doing that disgusting act, and I'd also heard her intimate, secret confessions, some of which I DID NOT know previously.
Back in the car park we said our good-byes, in spite of my invitation to come home for a drink, they said they really did have another pressing engagement that night, in spite of the earlier wind up.
Before they drove off, Susan had given them (unasked) our address and phone number. In the next years, we were to be visited by several soldiers in ones or two, all of whom enjoyed Susan's sexual charms, in both straight and kinky sessions. Did we meet Don & Les again?, well yes, but that's another story.