Comments on Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla.
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From: meme misspelt
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:22:55 GMT
Desdmona22 wrote:
The following is submission # 24 in the FishTank. It is 3,266 words long. It is
also the second part of a story in progress. All guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 things to improve
3) Try not to repeat
I should probably salt this one with the preliminary comment that I've
been eagerly awaiting the second installment of Victim Victorian. It's
hard for me to judge it as a stand-alone piece, and I've got a favorable
bias.
Two positive:
I think the tone is just marvelous. Dry, funny, and sexy - a tricky
balance to achieve, I bet. And I like the evocative vocabulary.
I think the ear for dialogue is commendable. Made me laugh out loud
three or four times.
Two to improve:
I'm not by any means an expert on the Victorian era and could easily be
off-base, but a couple of things struck me as borderline anachronistic.
I don't think it's impossible that a young lady in a boarding house
would have the word "clitoris" in her vocabulary, but I think it might
require some additional explanation. And while I don't know this for a
fact, I would be surprised if the folks who put skirts on tables to hide
their indecent legs would really have junior art students doing nude
figure studies with any regularity.
I was a little confused by this scene:
"Then I'm free to go?"
She drained her cup, then leaned over and kissed his cheek. "William,
dear, you are not just free, you are encouraged. If you are going to
be sulking about last night's entertainment, I certainly don't want
you doing it here."
She stood and brushed off her skirts. "I believe your first class is
in half an hour, so I'd advise you to look sharp about setting
out. Here is your key to the front door. I've sent for your luggage
from the hotel, the carriage should be here momentarily. Supper is at
eight."
She paused in the doorway. "Oh, and I promised Maggie she could sit
for you this afternoon. Is six o'clock acceptable?"
He opened his mouth. Then he closed it. Whatever was happening to him
was happening terribly fast.
<
Initially I misread Mrs. Dalrymple's first two paragraphs there in such
a way that I thought she was encouraging him to leave the house as in,
not be a boarder where he was uncomfortable, and was thrown when she
gave him a key - that was me reading too quickly, not Vinnie's
problem. But I do think there is a bit of a credibility issue anyway -
because the conscious, repressed side of Corky would, I think, want to
quit the house immediately and permanently upon realizing he's not a
prisoner. That's not really what he wants, of course, but he doesn't
know that, and hence his actions seemed a little inconsistent. There's
some discussion:
Corky's day passed in a daze. He appeared on time in the appointed
studios, took notes on the appropriate lectures (later he found the
notes to contain a curious sprinkling of shocking language), but his
mind was entirely elsewhere.
<
of Corky's internal conflict, but given the degree to which he continues
to protest verbally, it seemed insufficient. If it were me, I think I
would have had Corky resolving to go into the house only long enough to
procure his luggage, then encountering Maggie, feeling his resolution
give way to her (perhaps more innocent-seeming) desire to sit for him
&c.
From: Nicholas Urfe
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 22 Jan 2002 13:25:06 -0800
Well, crap. Frickin' computer crashed. Lost everything pertaining to
Fish Tank no. 24. Let's bally well try again, shall we?
A) Corking good dialogue throughout. Excellent give-and-take, peppered
with enough archaisms to give us the flavor, yet not so sodden as to
demand attention to the detriment of the overall story.
B) Marvelous scenario; I'm still sniggering at Maggie's impromptu
colloquium on the female body as art object. (Objectification,
hurrah!) Certainly, it's an element of Victorian eroticisation that's
underrepresented in the pornography of the period - the nubile model
and the (usually more libertine) artiste, that is; the only comparable
example I can think of at the moment is something by Anais Nin, but
that's much (much) later - though, I leap to point out, this is merely
in my own experience; I am hardly a scholar of the subject at hand.
But; but, but, but.
A) The narrative voice needs work.
We are presented with a third-person limited narrator. Why should that
be? (Especially when the literature of the period is far more heavily
weighted to the person of the first part; and the majority of
third-person narratives I can think of - in this idiom, and, seeing
above re: limitations of my own experience - are merely framing devices
for epistolary exchanges which are, in the end, nothing more than
first-person narratives; oh well.) - On the one hand, we wish to be
limited, encountering the unusual milieu of the Dalrymples as our
protagonist does. On the other, we want some distance, and not to
struggle under the usual baggage of first-person narration.
(I should at this point note that nothing prevents future chapters
from being told from the point of view of one or another of the
delightful Dalrymples; when Corky, and, by extension, the reader, have
become more acclimatized to their abnormal norm. - I should further
and humbly note, however, that, unless a specific effect is sought, a
rule of thumb of one narrative point-of-view per chapter be applied,
such rules being adored by formalists and others of their ilk, quick
to squawk when such strictures are violated to no good purpose - and
sometimes even then.)
Having achieved some distance, though, nothing much, really, is done
with it, and that's a shame, and a squandering of some opportunity.
The narrator of most Victorian pieces - whether first or third - is very
definitely a character in and of themselves; the pretence at
objectivity, transparency, clarity had yet to be bandied about, and
most pieces were written to some admitted, overt purpose. Who is
telling "Victim/Victorian," and why? (Beyond "Vinnie Tesla." A smack
on the wrist for you, laddiebuck.) - Who, then, is Vinnie pretending
to be as he tells this story, and why? We do not need to be nearly so
precise as "a defrocked Anglican cleric with a penchant for buggery,
who wishes to expose the evils endemic to England's lax boarding
houses, and who maintains a flat in the Mews off Stonecutters' Court."
Hardly. But we do need to know - or Vinnie should, at least, and it
should become apparent, to us - where the narrator stands vis-a-vis
Corky, and his naivete (or heroic reserve); and the Dalrymples, and
their free spirits (or appalling libertinage). - Is the narrator
smirking at Corky's naivete, and indulging in an affectation of shock
and dismay for ironical purposes? Or relating a cautionary tale, and
regretfully indulging in an explication of the horrors that ensue in
the hopes such explicitness will prevent future crimes against decency
and the common good? - Much as with the archaisms with which the
dialogue was sprinkled, a careful hand must be taken here: we do not
need asides to "Gentle Reader" every other paragraph, or mock-shocked
exclamation points! with every thrust! and lewd caress! to make the
point. But it does need to be made: the author may be dead - but the
dead are still characters worthy of our consideration. (Of course,
Vinnie could further spare a thought or two to his own posture
vis-a-vis this proposed relationship, and then to our posture
vis-a-vis that, and the effects to be had and the games to be played
via their manipulation - but this is rapidly haring off into the misty
borderlands of metafiction and all sorts of post-modern yumminess,
so.)
This consideration should not (immediately) lead to a wholesale
re-write of the first two chapters; goodness, no. But it is something
to consider as the larger piece develops momentum - and if something
rich and strange, or at least amusing, should thereby grow, the early
chapters could then be revisited with an eye towards bringing them
into the fold.
B) Six o'clock comes all too soon. Maggie persists; he is flustered,
insists he will see her at six; she dashes out the door; he sits down
heavily, mops his brow, studiously ignores his pego - and just then
hears the tolling of the clock in the hallway, six strokes, and in
pops Maggie again, having just had time to nip down to the end of the
hallway and scamper back. Something else needs to happen here, to pass
an adequate amount of time, or the scenes need to be structured
differently so as not to require an interruption - but I think the
interruption is fine, and certainly, if Corky is lost in a reverie for
some time (or perhaps, attempts to distract himself with a cheerless
tea), it would allow our narrator some breathing room to soliloquize a
moment or three on, Lord knows, whatever crosses its dirty little
mind.
Also, and as a bonus point: breasts, no matter how large or pendulous,
do not, in my own experience, swing "wildly." A touch too much
exuberance there, methinks. - And: when one burst of dialogue
interrupts another by finishing it, it is common practice to begin
that snippet of dialogue with an em-dash, much as the interrupted
snippet ended with one. Thusly:
" ...some studies of light - "
" - and shadow," she finished for him.
But enough!
There. My first foray into the Fish Tank. Hmm. It's much easier, as
has been noted time and again, to say something is bad than to say
something is good, which, perhaps, is why critics the world over are
held in such disfavor. So: This is good, quite good, and could be made
better - and is quite worthy of the time and effort necessary to make
it so. - Not, mind you, that anything I've said is guaranteed to have
any impact in that regard; but, and nonetheless.
What next? - Beyond, of course, what appears to be an incipient
incestuous menage. Perhaps an epistolary exchange? A letter, written
by Corky to a friend, which attempts to describe his new life as an
art student while necessarily papering over the more salacious
aspects, thereby striking some amusingly ironic notes? And one does
wonder what high tea looks like at the Dalrymples, and what the vicar
says (and does) when he visits, and What the Butler Saw, and all of
that. Ah, the Victorian era - ! Just, you know. Take it easy on the
spankings. I mean, it does nothing for me, at any rate. Okay?
Thanks.
Best,
- n.
"Dusty said that these people from the Wooden Indian Society, in this
sort of dark thought he'd had, had looked into matters real
thoroughly. And they came to believe very deeply, very strongly, that
the thing which killed the wooden Indian, and in so doing had changed
American history so terribly for the worst, had been the invention and
marketing of an Indian made of cast iron or zinc."
no soul, no heart, no grace:
http://www.asstr.org/~nickurfe/ift/
http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:56:48 +0200
"Desdmona22" <desdmona22@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020121223747.26159.00002248@mb-bd.aol.com ...
The following is submission # 24 in the FishTank. It is 3,266 words long.
It is
also the second part of a story in progress. All guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
1. I liked the play of youth against age, exemplified by the use of the
underexploited "human nature" element of undercutting his outrage with "If
you are going to be sulking about last night's entertainment, I certainly
don't want you doing it here." We don't often enough, IMHO, introduce the
complexity of perversity in our stories, probably because it's difficult to
get right, so it's great to see it well done here.
2. I liked the exuberance of the telling. I've had rather a surfeit of
angst in my reading recently and it's great to re-visit simple, pastoral
lust told lightly with good humour.
2) 2 things to improve
1. I think we all tend to neglect the finer detail of physical
descriptions: textures, smells and so on. For example, when "the girl was
released from [her] whalebone confinement" I just bet that her fair young
skin was marked with the red whiplash of the corset's edge, or something,
and I just know she itched and wanted to scratch. How would she handle
that?
2. Picky proofing and editing details really matter because flaws are
distractions to the reader. For example, "Elanor" does occur as a name (I
just googled it) but "Eleanor" is expected and would have passed without
remark And, importantly, is bosom singular or plural?
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com>
http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 23 Jan 2002 14:49:26 GMT
FatherIgnatius writes:
2. Picky proofing and editing details really matter because flaws are
distractions to the reader. For example, "Elanor" does occur as a name (I
just googled it) but "Eleanor" is expected and would have passed without
remark And, importantly, is bosom singular or plural?
Interesting points. As long as the name is kept the same throughout, why
should it matter? True, we might pause at a strange name or strange spelling
the first time, but after that wouldn't we just accept it as "her" and smoothly
go on? I confess I didn't even notice the weird spelling, but then I tend not
to really "read" names or complicated long words, I just sort of take them in
as a shape, maybe with frills of pronounciation attached, but no more than
that. As for bosom(s), I noticed that, but as it's something out of the
character's mouth, is there any harm, regardless of whether it's "correct" or
not? I thought it was cute! I thought she was cute. My major complaint about
the story is that it didn't linger, it didn't draw out quite enough in some
critical spots. But that's a repeat, I think, so I'll try to come up with
something fresh. For now just let me say, I liked it.
- Mat Twassel
PS More distracting was a missing apostrophe on ocean's - don't ask me why - but
I expect that'll get taken care of before the final printing.
From: DrSpin
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 23 Jan 2002 10:40:55 -0800
In article <20020123094926.20497.00000019@mb-fk.aol.com>, Mat Twassel said ...
I confess I didn't even notice the weird spelling, but then I tend not
to really "read" names or complicated long words, I just sort of take them in
as a shape, maybe with frills of pronounciation attached, but no more than
that.
<Rolls eyes.> Only Mat Twassel could say that.
Vinnie's story was great. Good fun, clever, witty.
Constructively, and I'm in the broad range of Nicholas Urfe's camp on
this, I semi-regret that the story is a comedy and not a full-blown
melodrama. There is such a rich vein in the erotic fiction field for
Victorian melodrama. I can imagine the narrator in the style of a
reporter of events - rather like the style Bram Stoker adopted in
"Dracula." Or Jules Verne.
To do that successfully, of course, is not easy. The author has to get
the language of the period exactly so, and also the circumstances,
characters and surroundings. If it slips into current terminology and
expression, it falls over.
But that's not a criticism of Vinnie's Victorian romp, merely a desire
to see one of those unbelievably sexy period stories done realistically
and convincingly.
Urfe has threatened to do it. Maybe he will.
DrSpin
* also at neil@ruthiesclub.com and at http://www.ruthiesclub.com
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 25 Jan 2002 03:49:49 GMT
First of all, I agree pretty much with the comments and suggestions offered by
Meme, e e, Father Nat, and DrSpin.
I enjoyed this piece very much and just now went to check on Chapter 1, and I
enjoyed that, too.
Here's my newish suggestion/comment:
These chapters don't quite work as well as they might because we don't know
quite enough about the charcters, especially the character of our hero, his
background, etc. I think only one earlier chapter is needed to set this thing
in motion. It's not that we don't have any idea of who this guy is, but we
could savor the story of his introduction(s) to this household more if we knew
more about him up front - a scene or two showing him in his former habitat and
in transition. (I imagine him leaving a demur sweetheart behind, but whatever
...)
A separate but similar issue (partially covered in the earlier comments by
others) is that the pace appears just slightly rushed in places. Too eager to
get to the sex scenes. Some slow stuff to increase the tease - say a scene at
the art school doing those still-lives. Room for some sexy thoughts and
reflections there, I'd think.
On the plus side: more please!
- Mat Twassel
From: Desdmona
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 25 Jan 2002 19:10:04 GMT
Ray is having trouble with his ISP and ask me to post his comments to the
FishTank. So take it away Ray ....
Victim Victorian (f/M exhib)
Part 2: Art for Art's Sake
by Vinnie Tesla
First, let me say that I have 'not' read part one before making these
comments, wishing to see if the preceeding action was 'filled in' here as I
read ....
Two positive comments:
1) I enjoyed the story as I read it. Not having read the preceeding part,
it took me a few moments to 'catch up' but the clues were there to
understand basically what had gone before and I enjoyed the action as it
proceeded.
2) At first I thought I was going to make some exception comments about the
opening two paragraphs, and I'm still not positive I understand how sea
shells and strange corals relate to asphyxiation by vagina but I love the
language used none-the-less.
Two corrective comments:
1) Time passage: After returning to the boarding house and his room (Why?)
supposedly in mid-afternoon, he is trying to gain some time for himself, for
clear thought and proposses 6:00 as a meeting time. Yet with the passage of
only a single thought and a slight struggle with the needs of his 'peg' it
is six o'clock. Meanwhile, in that short span, Maggie has evidently spoken
with her mother and changed her clothing to something which appropriately
displayed her feminine charms to better effect.
2) I'm doing something different here: instead of a single straight forward
comment about one aspect of the story, I'm going to 'play' editor in a mild
degree - primarily pointing out spelling corrections and one or two simple
word substitutions. I will delete all other portions of the story save those
where I saw a needed correction. (Since I am not an editor, don't be
surprised if I miss some).
Corky strained to remember what had happened that day. "In painting
class, we did, er, still lives."
(I believe even in pluralization the term is spelled "Still Lifes",
something peculiar in the art world only - but not being an art student I
could be mistaken)
Soon the girl was released from the whalebone confinement, and she
stood clad in her loose chemise before him. Now, with ith a look of
fierce determination, she grasped the thin fabric of the chemise, and
pulled it over her head.
(with ith? something needs deleting above)
"Mr Brandywine," she exclaimed reproachfully, "you look positively
ready to faint! Surely you do'n't find the sight of my body so
distressing as that!"
(do'n't - an extra apostrophe above)
Had Corky had his wits about him, he would have immediately agreed
with the girl. Where there room in his head at that moment for words
and ideas, rather than overwhelming images of firm and yielding
feminine flesh, he would not have made so foolish an error. So perhaps
we can forgive him for having instead replied, "Why, whatever do you
mean?"
(Second sentence: "Were" there room in his head ... - above)
Now two tapered little fingers found the way to the base of Maggie's
tender orifice, and slowly pressed inside. With exquisite slow care,
they disappeared in to the ripening girl. Then, at the same moment,
Maggie's knuckles came to rest against her plump mons as her fingers
were swallowed entirely within her sex, and Corky gave forth a
strangled groan and twitched several times, as a dark stain began to
spread across the front of his trousers.
(Substitute 'simultaneously' for 'at the same time' - above. I know that it
means 'at the same time' but the implication of the two can seem to 'imply'
different visuals. 'at the same time' - to me at least - feels more clumsy
as I read it.)
(Substitute 'twitching' for 'and twitched' removes an unnecessary 'and' and
improves the flow - above)
"I think it's almost all up," Maggie interrupted him. "Those trousers
will definitely need to be laundered, though." She deftly slipped his
boots off him, and was tugging at clothes before he could compose a
suitable protest. Before he knew it, he was bare from the waist down,
and the nude girl was diving between his limbs to scrutinize the
results of her efforts. "Legs seem clean," she noted, running her cool
little hands over his inner thighs. "Your cods are cleaned-up" as she
stroked his scrotum with her fingertips. The skin tightened under her
touch as his tender gonads sought shelter. "Ooh, but a little shy!"
she grinned.
(Needs the word 'his' added above - I believe it should read 'and was
tugging at 'his' clothes ...'
Then she leapt up spryly and straddled his waist so that her soft
bottom was resting on his bare thighs, his ardent prick nestled in her
curly motte. She ran her hands through his hair, and pulled his head
back so that his eyes met hers. "But I think I'm going to fuck you
instead, Mr. Brandywine."
(The start of the above paragraph is clumsy - try 'Leaping up spryly she
straddled ...)
And she brought her hand to his cock, and lowered her hips upon it,
engulfing him in fluid heat.
(Recommend simply deleting the first 'And' above making it: "She brought her
hand ...")
Corky's head fell back and his teeth gritted as he began to pound his
hips upward into the shuddering girl. His fingers dug into Maggie's
hips and she wailed long and low as he grunted, and with several final
violent thrusts, spent into the clutching interior of his adolescent
seductress.
(Second sentence above: the first comma is in the wrong place - it should
follow, not preceed the 'and' to make your point more recognizable.)
Try Not to repeat:
I hope I didn't, but I downloaded this on Monday, and have not had access to
review other's comments for the past few days. Should do it through Google -
but I'm feeling lazy and hate browsing the group through Google in any case.
:^}
Hope this helps.
Ray
From: PleaseCain
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 25 Jan 2002 20:19:21 GMT
Strong opening, packed with imagery. After that, I felt adrift for a while, as
I hadn't read part one. Once I settled in to what you were doing, however, it
was enjoyable enough, because your language and dialogue are perfect for this
stuff. You have a great ear.
A couple of spots still throw me:
I had to re-read this, because I thought at first that she had shut him out of
his own room (perhaps because I was unfamiliar with the "moment ... of last
night") -
"Well, I was thinking that today we would just do some charcoal
sketches. At six," Corky said, and attempted to slip into his
room. She outmaneuvered him, and in a moment uncomfortably
reminiscent of last night, shut the door behind herself with an
audible click.
Then, I found this section jarring for some reason, that they agree to meet at
six and he mops his brow until suddenly it is the appointed time -
She reached up and kissed him on the cheek. "At six!" she cried, and
dashed out the door.
Corky sat down heavily and mopped his brow. "What am I going to do?"
he murmured to himself desperately. His insolent pego had a suggestion
ready. However, well knowing the irreparable harm to physical health
and moral fibre that self-abuse exacts, he struggled to ignore his
rebellious organ's demands.
Just then he heard the tolling of the clock in the hallway, and with
the sixth stroke, Maggie burst once more through the door ....
Fun reading though, because your writing conveys such charm. Thanks for
sharing this.
Cain
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:43:16 -0600
On 22 Jan 2002 03:37:47 GMT, desdmona22@aol.com (Desdmona22) wrote:
Negatives first. Other than playing editor and trying to find
specific points to address, it isn't easy to find negatives.
A repeat maybe, but I think that the filled daytime period needs
more filling. I know that in a tale about sex getting to the sex
parts is important, but the day spent wandering in a daze is likely
filled with thoughts and observations, such as paying a bit too much
attention to the sexual attributes of women seen or met. He sounds
like the sort of man who, after such a sexual experience as is
described.
That mind-wandering daydreaming stuff could set the stage for his
intentions later, to remain pure despite how Maggie acts.
I'm sure it is repeating, but the lack of transition between Maggie
leaving and 6 on the clock is jarring.
I'm not a perfect fan of victorian porn stories, but the tale seemed
a bit modern in style. Unavoidable, maybe - true 19th century stuff
might be too hard for modern readers to get, but the style seemed just
a bit out of place. I'm not sure how to fix it because the feeling
was so vague. OTOH, as a tale written by a 21st century writer
observing 19th century playing, that might not matter.
Good stuff in the whole story, though. The setting seems very nicely
done, I got drawn into the world as given and didn't feel too much
like an alien, unable to grasp the culture, despite the differences
from the late 20th century. The dialog and situations seem perfect
for that.
The sex scene (exhibition mainly) is teasing enough to get me hot. I
happen to like teases, though I prefer when they carry on to something
more. Maggie doesn't quite (yet?) get to doing more with that, but
the interruption at the end nicely raises suspense about that too.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:21:21 GMT
On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:22:55 GMT, quoth the meme misspelt
<meem17@mwmw.com>:
I think the ear for dialogue is commendable. Made me laugh out loud
three or four times.
I was very pleased to see this. I was proud of several of the lines
("with your ...nether parts?"), but I wasn't sure if the humor was
there on the page or just in the performances in my own head.
Two to improve:
I'm not by any means an expert on the Victorian era and could easily be
off-base, but a couple of things struck me as borderline anachronistic.
I don't think it's impossible that a young lady in a boarding house
would have the word "clitoris" in her vocabulary, but I think it might
require some additional explanation. And while I don't know this for a
fact, I would be surprised if the folks who put skirts on tables to hide
their indecent legs would really have junior art students doing nude
figure studies with any regularity.
1) I've seen it asserted that the think about the skirts on table legs
was probably a joke Oscar Wilde made about those prudish Americans,
and not a real phenomenon at all.
2) Maggie's not a particularly normal Victorian girl.
of Corky's internal conflict, but given the degree to which he continues
to protest verbally, it seemed insufficient. If it were me, I think I
would have had Corky resolving to go into the house only long enough to
procure his luggage, then encountering Maggie, feeling his resolution
give way to her (perhaps more innocent-seeming) desire to sit for him
&c.
Shit! You're absolutely right - I'm ashamed I didn't realize it myself.
Expect to see some version of that implemented in a future revision.
From: Desdmona
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 27 Jan 2002 21:31:22 GMT
Subject: {ASSD} FishTank # 24 Victim Victorian
Vinnie~
First off I want to apologize for being late with my comments ... Darn real
life!!
I'm absolutely loving this story. I'm not a scholar on the language, dress, and
etiquette of the era (although I'm sure the behavior in this story wasn't the
norm) but I don't need to be to enjoy it. I get just enough to set the scene in
my head, without being overwhelmed with stodginess. The characters are light
and humorous and very likeable.
One thing I've noticed after reading both parts I and II, I'm starting to get
annoyed at Corky. Sure he's appalled, he's naïve, he's a gentleman ...yeah,
yeah, yeah but he's also laying in bed with a hard-on thinking about it ... so I
guess I'd like to see some inner conflict at how he's affected by his body's
traitorous response to what's going on.
I haven't read everyone's responses so I may be repeating here and I'm sorry if
I do, but how is the room "almost familiar" when he hasn't even been in it yet?
I actually like the phrase, "almost familiar" and it would work great if he'd
just seen his room once ... maybe he could have at least brought his luggage up
earlier or something. And then the attack of the Dalrymple's (such a great
name) could happen on the tour after he's seen his room.
I think the passage of time when he's not with the trio goes by much too
quickly. One tiny little paragraph to describe his day at school and to
describe the time before 6pm. Maybe this is Dalrymple (I like saying the name)
time but I think there should be a little expansion. Possibly this is when
Corky could be analyzing why his body betrays him, or trying to convince
himself he's not a lech because he is physically responsive.
And finally, my favorite line:
"I waxed rather enthusiastic ..." (I just loved that line ...it's superb)
I can't wait to read the next installment Vinnie. Bravo!!!
Des
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:36:09 GMT
On 22 Jan 2002 13:25:06 -0800, quoth the nickurfe@yahoo.com (Nicholas
Urfe):
A) The narrative voice needs work.
We are presented with a third-person limited narrator. Why should that
be? (Especially when the literature of the period is far more heavily
weighted to the person of the first part; and the majority of
third-person narratives I can think of - in this idiom, and, seeing
above re: limitations of my own experience - are merely framing devices
for epistolary exchanges which are, in the end, nothing more than
first-person narratives; oh well.)
Or the other way 'round. Look at "Autobiography of a Flea" - ostensably
a first-person narrative, but really a work of entirely third-person
porn with a broad anticlerical spin.
- On the one hand, we wish to be
limited, encountering the unusual milieu of the Dalrymples as our
protagonist does. On the other, we want some distance, and not to
struggle under the usual baggage of first-person narration.
Having achieved some distance, though, nothing much, really, is done
with it, and that's a shame, and a squandering of some opportunity.
The narrator of most Victorian pieces - whether first or third - is very
definitely a character in and of themselves; the pretence at
objectivity, transparency, clarity had yet to be bandied about, and
most pieces were written to some admitted, overt purpose.
...
- Is the narrator
smirking at Corky's naivete, and indulging in an affectation of shock
and dismay for ironical purposes? Or relating a cautionary tale, and
regretfully indulging in an explication of the horrors that ensue in
the hopes such explicitness will prevent future crimes against decency
and the common good?
Short answer: the former.
Long answer: I don't think the narratorial personality is quite so
absent as you do. Passages such as:
Had Corky had his wits about him, he would have immediately agreed
with the girl. Where there room in his head at that moment for words
and ideas, rather than overwhelming images of firm and yielding
feminine flesh, he would not have made so foolish an error. So perhaps
we can forgive him for having instead replied, "Why, whatever do you
mean?"
suggest a certain amount of cheering for one side or another that the
narrator is doing.
But, yeah, I will consider if I want to do more with it subsequently.
B) Six o'clock comes all too soon.
Guilty as charged (it's the most popular critique of the story, too).
That spot had originally held a placeholder for a plot-and-character
developing scene with Beatrice, which I was to get around to writing
later. When I finished the end of the story, I found that I still
didn't feel like writing the scene, and decided it was kind of amusing
to have the interval be about thirty seconds, instead of the hour or
so I had originally thought.
I still think, if I made it more emphatic, I could get some humor out
of that effect, rather than the widespread confusion I provoked. I
remain undecided whether the next revision will go that route, or I'll
finally bite the bullet with Beatrice.
There. My first foray into the Fish Tank. Hmm. It's much easier, as
has been noted time and again, to say something is bad than to say
something is good, which, perhaps, is why critics the world over are
held in such disfavor. So: This is good, quite good, and could be made
better - and is quite worthy of the time and effort necessary to make
it so. - Not, mind you, that anything I've said is guaranteed to have
any impact in that regard; but, and nonetheless.
What next? - Beyond, of course, what appears to be an incipient
incestuous menage. Perhaps an epistolary exchange? A letter, written
by Corky to a friend, which attempts to describe his new life as an
art student while necessarily papering over the more salacious
aspects, thereby striking some amusingly ironic notes?
that is a delightful idea, but I don't see myself producing it in the
forseeable future. If anyone else wants to produce such a document, I
will post it with pride & pleasure.
And one does
wonder what high tea looks like at the Dalrymples,
psst - high tea means the opposite of what you think it means. Oosh
could probably explain it better than I, but high (or meat) tea is a
substantial meal taken late in the day by the working classes. High
refers to the hour, rather than the tone of the gathering.
and what the vicar
says (and does) when he visits, and What the Butler Saw, and all of
that. Ah, the Victorian era - ! Just, you know. Take it easy on the
spankings. I mean, it does nothing for me, at any rate. Okay?
I'm afraid you'll be wanting to skip Part 3 (tentatively titled Just
Desserts). After that you should be fine for a couple chapters,
though. Watch the story codes for individual parts, and you shouldn't
have any nasty surprises.
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:38:42 GMT
On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:56:48 +0200, quoth the "Father Ignatius"
<FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com>:
1. I think we all tend to neglect the finer detail of physical
descriptions: textures, smells and so on. For example, when "the girl was
released from [her] whalebone confinement" I just bet that her fair young
skin was marked with the red whiplash of the corset's edge, or something,
and I just know she itched and wanted to scratch. How would she handle
that?
Man, I was sweating bullets already, afraid I'd say something stupid,
victorian underwear not being one of my areas of rock-solid
scholarship. If I managed to avoid saying anything grossly impossible
about Maggie's nether garments, I shall relax in a job well done.
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:49:31 GMT
On 25 Jan 2002 03:49:49 GMT, quoth the mmtwassel@aol.com (mat
twassel):
First of all, I agree pretty much with the comments and suggestions offered by
Meme, e e, Father Nat, and DrSpin.
I enjoyed this piece very much and just now went to check on Chapter 1, and I
enjoyed that, too.
Here's my newish suggestion/comment:
These chapters don't quite work as well as they might because we don't know
quite enough about the charcters, especially the character of our hero, his
background, etc. I think only one earlier chapter is needed to set this thing
in motion. It's not that we don't have any idea of who this guy is, but we
could savor the story of his introduction(s) to this household more if we knew
more about him up front - a scene or two showing him in his former habitat and
in transition. (I imagine him leaving a demur sweetheart behind, but whatever
...)
I emphatically disagree.
It seems to me that with topics like nonconsensual sex or incest, you
have a choice. You can confront them head on, like Laura or Celia do,
nevr flinching from the emotional damage done by real world
experiences of that sort.
Or you can stylize your story unto absurdity like Frank McCoy or
(sometimes) DiscipleN, so that they have as much to do with real-life
traumas as Road Runner cartoons have to do with nature red in tooth
and claw.
I don't have the stomach for the former path. If I give the characters
in V/V too much depth and realism, the souffle sits. I'm approaching
this very much from the outside - I don't know any more than you do
about the late Mr. Dalrymple, I'm not even sure if Maggie lost her
virginity in Part 2 (Cork did, of course). For now, I'm comfotable
with that as a way to be telling this story.
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:53:23 GMT
On 25 Jan 2002 19:10:04 GMT, quoth the desdmona22@aol.com
(Desdmona22):
2) At first I thought I was going to make some exception comments about the
opening two paragraphs, and I'm still not positive I understand how sea
shells and strange corals relate to asphyxiation by vagina but I love the
language used none-the-less.
Well, that's the lovely thing about dream sequences, innit? Doesn't
have to make sense intellectually, so long as it works viscerally.
2) I'm doing something different here: instead of a single straight forward
comment about one aspect of the story, I'm going to 'play' editor in a mild
degree - primarily pointing out spelling corrections and one or two simple
word substitutions. I will delete all other portions of the story save those
where I saw a needed correction. (Since I am not an editor, don't be
surprised if I miss some).
Cool - I've been sad that this sort of thing is relatively hard to to
on the Tank - as I mentioned a few months ago, I think an interesting
experiment would be to try doing a Fishtank on a Wiki.
I've fixed the proofreading errors you caught on my local copy. Flow
and wording ones will wait for the Big Revision.
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:04:17 GMT
On 27 Jan 2002 21:31:22 GMT, quoth the desdmona22@aol.com
(Desdmona22):
I haven't read everyone's responses so I may be repeating here and I'm sorry if
I do, but how is the room "almost familiar" when he hasn't even been in it yet?
I actually like the phrase, "almost familiar" and it would work great if he'd
just seen his room once ... maybe he could have at least brought his luggage up
earlier or something. And then the attack of the Dalrymple's (such a great
name) could happen on the tour after he's seen his room.
What you propose was my conception of what had happened just before
the beginning of Part 1. Guess that wasn't clear enough.
Two to improve:
I'm not by any means an expert on the Victorian era and could easily be
off-base, but a couple of things struck me as borderline anachronistic.
I don't think it's impossible that a young lady in a boarding house
would have the word "clitoris" in her vocabulary, but I think it might
require some additional explanation. And while I don't know this for a
fact, I would be surprised if the folks who put skirts on tables to hide
their indecent legs would really have junior art students doing nude
figure studies with any regularity.
1) I've seen it asserted that the think about the skirts on table legs
was probably a joke Oscar Wilde made about those prudish Americans,
and not a real phenomenon at all.
2) Maggie's not a particularly normal Victorian girl.
1. Well, whether it was a joke or not, and with caveats about my lack of
real expertist still standing, it does seem to have been a (publicly,
anyway) culture of uptightness and general repression. There are a coupla
art history books 'round my joint, but none serve to provide a real
answer to the underlying question, unfortunately.
2. I should hope not! And I hope we learn more about how she defies
convention as the series unfolds.
Two to improve:
I'm not by any means an expert on the Victorian era and could easily be
off-base, but a couple of things struck me as borderline anachronistic.
I don't think it's impossible that a young lady in a boarding house
would have the word "clitoris" in her vocabulary, but I think it might
require some additional explanation. And while I don't know this for a
fact, I would be surprised if the folks who put skirts on tables to hide
their indecent legs would really have junior art students doing nude
figure studies with any regularity.
1) I've seen it asserted that the think about the skirts on table legs
was probably a joke Oscar Wilde made about those prudish Americans,
and not a real phenomenon at all.
1. Well, whether it was a joke or not, and with caveats about my lack of
real expertist still standing, it does seem to have been a (publicly,
anyway) culture of uptightness and general repression. There are a coupla
art history books 'round my joint, but none serve to provide a real
answer to the underlying question, unfortunately.
While I don't know about when students started drawing nudes, Victorian
artists painted and sculpted nudes all the time. It was one of the
weirdnesses about the time (or about the real mores and our
understanding of the mores).
Remember, "Dejeuner Sur l'Herbe" shocked people because it was set in
modern times, not because the women were undressed.
From: Meme Mispelt
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:57:43 -0500
On 28 Jan 2002, Uther Pendragon wrote:
While I don't know about when students started drawing nudes, Victorian
artists painted and sculpted nudes all the time. It was one of the
weirdnesses about the time (or about the real mores and our
understanding of the mores).
Right, it's on the subject of what students did or didn't do that my texts
fail me. I'm not even sure what would be a good reference for that sort
of question.
Well, I was surprised when my own freshman drawing class included nude
studies; I sorta thought they might save that for grad school, or at least
for sophomores.
Two easy outs for Vinnie have occurred to me though, should he think he
needs 'em: first, policies between different schools might vary widely,
and Corky might have accidentally matriculated somewhere rather more
progressive than he thinks he would have liked (a notion I think is rather
promising, actually); it also seems to me that Corky could even have been
so flustrered that, without meaning to lie, exactly, he found himself
saying he'd done nude drawings before when he really hadn't.
From: Meme Mispelt
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:17:25 -0500
On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Vinnie Tesla wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:57:43 -0500, quoth the Meme Mispelt
<zedzee@mwmw.com>:
it also seems to me that Corky could even have been
so flustrered that, without meaning to lie, exactly, he found himself
saying he'd done nude drawings before when he really hadn't.
Where does he say he has?
Heh. You're right, of course. I was thinking of this bit, in Chapter 1,
where he come close to implying that he has:
"Well ..." he answered, "for figure studies, it's traditional ...that is, in
a
classroom setting it's really not terribly ...that is to say for, for, for
purposes
of artistic reference, the model will generally ..."
"You pose NAKED!" stage whispered Beatrice.
"Nude, dear," her mother corrected her firmly.
Maggie blushed a little, but didn't look as displeased as she
might. "Oh,
my!" she exclaimed. "Is that really quite proper?"
"Now Maggie," answered Mrs. Dalrymple, with an indulgent smile, "I'm
sure Mr. Brandywine has enjoyed the sight of dozens of nude young ladies
over the years, many nearly as pretty as yourself; and is none the worse
for
the experience."
"Mrs. Dalrymple!" Corky exclaimed, "I have only been at art school a
single week!"
From: Selena Jardine
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 29 Jan 2002 11:46:01 -0800
Uther Pendragon <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote in message news:<1012255026.409209@irys.nyx.net> ...
Remember, "Dejeuner Sur l'Herbe" shocked people because it was set in
modern times, not because the women were undressed.
Well ... it was sort of the combination of the two. Dressed modern men
picnicking with naked women. As opposed to naked antique Greek fellas
picnicking with equally antique Greek sweet young things, or else
clothed modern men picnicking with clothed modern women. Or whatever.
My great-grandfather used to say, "You can call me anything you like,
just call me in time for dinner. " Give me dejeuner, that's all I
ask.
Selena
selenajardine@yahoo.com
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 17:44:18 -0600
On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:57:43 -0500, Meme Mispelt <zedzee@mwmw.com>
wrote:
On 28 Jan 2002, Uther Pendragon wrote:
While I don't know about when students started drawing nudes, Victorian
artists painted and sculpted nudes all the time. It was one of the
weirdnesses about the time (or about the real mores and our
understanding of the mores).
Right, it's on the subject of what students did or didn't do that my texts
fail me. I'm not even sure what would be a good reference for that sort
of question.
Well, I was surprised when my own freshman drawing class included nude
studies; I sorta thought they might save that for grad school, or at least
for sophomores.
Nah, they have to get you hooked on art right off, before you get
bored and transfer to some other major. Plus it gives better odds
that non-art majors might take a few such classes.
Two easy outs for Vinnie have occurred to me though, should he think he
needs 'em: first, policies between different schools might vary widely,
and Corky might have accidentally matriculated somewhere rather more
progressive than he thinks he would have liked (a notion I think is rather
promising, actually); it also seems to me that Corky could even have been
so flustrered that, without meaning to lie, exactly, he found himself
saying he'd done nude drawings before when he really hadn't.
It does seem confusing, but maybe it will get cleared up in the next
episode.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
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From: meme misspelt
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:22:55 GMT
Desdmona22 wrote:
I should probably salt this one with the preliminary comment that I've been eagerly awaiting the second installment of Victim Victorian. It's hard for me to judge it as a stand-alone piece, and I've got a favorable bias.
Two positive:
I think the tone is just marvelous. Dry, funny, and sexy - a tricky balance to achieve, I bet. And I like the evocative vocabulary.
I think the ear for dialogue is commendable. Made me laugh out loud three or four times.
Two to improve:
I'm not by any means an expert on the Victorian era and could easily be off-base, but a couple of things struck me as borderline anachronistic. I don't think it's impossible that a young lady in a boarding house would have the word "clitoris" in her vocabulary, but I think it might require some additional explanation. And while I don't know this for a fact, I would be surprised if the folks who put skirts on tables to hide their indecent legs would really have junior art students doing nude figure studies with any regularity.
I was a little confused by this scene:
Initially I misread Mrs. Dalrymple's first two paragraphs there in such a way that I thought she was encouraging him to leave the house as in, not be a boarder where he was uncomfortable, and was thrown when she gave him a key - that was me reading too quickly, not Vinnie's problem. But I do think there is a bit of a credibility issue anyway - because the conscious, repressed side of Corky would, I think, want to quit the house immediately and permanently upon realizing he's not a prisoner. That's not really what he wants, of course, but he doesn't know that, and hence his actions seemed a little inconsistent. There's some discussion:
Corky's day passed in a daze. He appeared on time in the appointed studios, took notes on the appropriate lectures (later he found the notes to contain a curious sprinkling of shocking language), but his mind was entirely elsewhere. <
of Corky's internal conflict, but given the degree to which he continues to protest verbally, it seemed insufficient. If it were me, I think I would have had Corky resolving to go into the house only long enough to procure his luggage, then encountering Maggie, feeling his resolution give way to her (perhaps more innocent-seeming) desire to sit for him &c.
- Meme Misspelt
- http://www.asstr.org/~meme_misspelt
From: Nicholas Urfe
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 22 Jan 2002 13:25:06 -0800
Well, crap. Frickin' computer crashed. Lost everything pertaining to Fish Tank no. 24. Let's bally well try again, shall we?
A) Corking good dialogue throughout. Excellent give-and-take, peppered with enough archaisms to give us the flavor, yet not so sodden as to demand attention to the detriment of the overall story.
B) Marvelous scenario; I'm still sniggering at Maggie's impromptu colloquium on the female body as art object. (Objectification, hurrah!) Certainly, it's an element of Victorian eroticisation that's underrepresented in the pornography of the period - the nubile model and the (usually more libertine) artiste, that is; the only comparable example I can think of at the moment is something by Anais Nin, but that's much (much) later - though, I leap to point out, this is merely in my own experience; I am hardly a scholar of the subject at hand.
But; but, but, but.
A) The narrative voice needs work.
We are presented with a third-person limited narrator. Why should that be? (Especially when the literature of the period is far more heavily weighted to the person of the first part; and the majority of third-person narratives I can think of - in this idiom, and, seeing above re: limitations of my own experience - are merely framing devices for epistolary exchanges which are, in the end, nothing more than first-person narratives; oh well.) - On the one hand, we wish to be limited, encountering the unusual milieu of the Dalrymples as our protagonist does. On the other, we want some distance, and not to struggle under the usual baggage of first-person narration.
(I should at this point note that nothing prevents future chapters from being told from the point of view of one or another of the delightful Dalrymples; when Corky, and, by extension, the reader, have become more acclimatized to their abnormal norm. - I should further and humbly note, however, that, unless a specific effect is sought, a rule of thumb of one narrative point-of-view per chapter be applied, such rules being adored by formalists and others of their ilk, quick to squawk when such strictures are violated to no good purpose - and sometimes even then.)
Having achieved some distance, though, nothing much, really, is done with it, and that's a shame, and a squandering of some opportunity. The narrator of most Victorian pieces - whether first or third - is very definitely a character in and of themselves; the pretence at objectivity, transparency, clarity had yet to be bandied about, and most pieces were written to some admitted, overt purpose. Who is telling "Victim/Victorian," and why? (Beyond "Vinnie Tesla." A smack on the wrist for you, laddiebuck.) - Who, then, is Vinnie pretending to be as he tells this story, and why? We do not need to be nearly so precise as "a defrocked Anglican cleric with a penchant for buggery, who wishes to expose the evils endemic to England's lax boarding houses, and who maintains a flat in the Mews off Stonecutters' Court." Hardly. But we do need to know - or Vinnie should, at least, and it should become apparent, to us - where the narrator stands vis-a-vis Corky, and his naivete (or heroic reserve); and the Dalrymples, and their free spirits (or appalling libertinage). - Is the narrator smirking at Corky's naivete, and indulging in an affectation of shock and dismay for ironical purposes? Or relating a cautionary tale, and regretfully indulging in an explication of the horrors that ensue in the hopes such explicitness will prevent future crimes against decency and the common good? - Much as with the archaisms with which the dialogue was sprinkled, a careful hand must be taken here: we do not need asides to "Gentle Reader" every other paragraph, or mock-shocked exclamation points! with every thrust! and lewd caress! to make the point. But it does need to be made: the author may be dead - but the dead are still characters worthy of our consideration. (Of course, Vinnie could further spare a thought or two to his own posture vis-a-vis this proposed relationship, and then to our posture vis-a-vis that, and the effects to be had and the games to be played via their manipulation - but this is rapidly haring off into the misty borderlands of metafiction and all sorts of post-modern yumminess, so.)
This consideration should not (immediately) lead to a wholesale re-write of the first two chapters; goodness, no. But it is something to consider as the larger piece develops momentum - and if something rich and strange, or at least amusing, should thereby grow, the early chapters could then be revisited with an eye towards bringing them into the fold.
B) Six o'clock comes all too soon. Maggie persists; he is flustered, insists he will see her at six; she dashes out the door; he sits down heavily, mops his brow, studiously ignores his pego - and just then hears the tolling of the clock in the hallway, six strokes, and in pops Maggie again, having just had time to nip down to the end of the hallway and scamper back. Something else needs to happen here, to pass an adequate amount of time, or the scenes need to be structured differently so as not to require an interruption - but I think the interruption is fine, and certainly, if Corky is lost in a reverie for some time (or perhaps, attempts to distract himself with a cheerless tea), it would allow our narrator some breathing room to soliloquize a moment or three on, Lord knows, whatever crosses its dirty little mind.
Also, and as a bonus point: breasts, no matter how large or pendulous, do not, in my own experience, swing "wildly." A touch too much exuberance there, methinks. - And: when one burst of dialogue interrupts another by finishing it, it is common practice to begin that snippet of dialogue with an em-dash, much as the interrupted snippet ended with one. Thusly:
" ...some studies of light - "
" - and shadow," she finished for him.
But enough!
There. My first foray into the Fish Tank. Hmm. It's much easier, as has been noted time and again, to say something is bad than to say something is good, which, perhaps, is why critics the world over are held in such disfavor. So: This is good, quite good, and could be made better - and is quite worthy of the time and effort necessary to make it so. - Not, mind you, that anything I've said is guaranteed to have any impact in that regard; but, and nonetheless.
What next? - Beyond, of course, what appears to be an incipient incestuous menage. Perhaps an epistolary exchange? A letter, written by Corky to a friend, which attempts to describe his new life as an art student while necessarily papering over the more salacious aspects, thereby striking some amusingly ironic notes? And one does wonder what high tea looks like at the Dalrymples, and what the vicar says (and does) when he visits, and What the Butler Saw, and all of that. Ah, the Victorian era - ! Just, you know. Take it easy on the spankings. I mean, it does nothing for me, at any rate. Okay?
Thanks.
Best,
- n.
"Dusty said that these people from the Wooden Indian Society, in this sort of dark thought he'd had, had looked into matters real thoroughly. And they came to believe very deeply, very strongly, that the thing which killed the wooden Indian, and in so doing had changed American history so terribly for the worst, had been the invention and marketing of an Indian made of cast iron or zinc."
no soul, no heart, no grace:
http://www.asstr.org/~nickurfe/ift/
http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:56:48 +0200
"Desdmona22" <desdmona22@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020121223747.26159.00002248@mb-bd.aol.com ...
1. I liked the play of youth against age, exemplified by the use of the underexploited "human nature" element of undercutting his outrage with "If you are going to be sulking about last night's entertainment, I certainly don't want you doing it here." We don't often enough, IMHO, introduce the complexity of perversity in our stories, probably because it's difficult to get right, so it's great to see it well done here.
2. I liked the exuberance of the telling. I've had rather a surfeit of angst in my reading recently and it's great to re-visit simple, pastoral lust told lightly with good humour.
1. I think we all tend to neglect the finer detail of physical descriptions: textures, smells and so on. For example, when "the girl was released from [her] whalebone confinement" I just bet that her fair young skin was marked with the red whiplash of the corset's edge, or something, and I just know she itched and wanted to scratch. How would she handle that?
2. Picky proofing and editing details really matter because flaws are distractions to the reader. For example, "Elanor" does occur as a name (I just googled it) but "Eleanor" is expected and would have passed without remark And, importantly, is bosom singular or plural?
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 23 Jan 2002 14:49:26 GMT
FatherIgnatius writes:
Interesting points. As long as the name is kept the same throughout, why should it matter? True, we might pause at a strange name or strange spelling the first time, but after that wouldn't we just accept it as "her" and smoothly go on? I confess I didn't even notice the weird spelling, but then I tend not to really "read" names or complicated long words, I just sort of take them in as a shape, maybe with frills of pronounciation attached, but no more than that. As for bosom(s), I noticed that, but as it's something out of the character's mouth, is there any harm, regardless of whether it's "correct" or not? I thought it was cute! I thought she was cute. My major complaint about the story is that it didn't linger, it didn't draw out quite enough in some critical spots. But that's a repeat, I think, so I'll try to come up with something fresh. For now just let me say, I liked it.
- Mat Twassel
PS More distracting was a missing apostrophe on ocean's - don't ask me why - but I expect that'll get taken care of before the final printing.
From: DrSpin
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 23 Jan 2002 10:40:55 -0800
In article <20020123094926.20497.00000019@mb-fk.aol.com>, Mat Twassel said ...
<Rolls eyes.> Only Mat Twassel could say that.
Vinnie's story was great. Good fun, clever, witty.
Constructively, and I'm in the broad range of Nicholas Urfe's camp on this, I semi-regret that the story is a comedy and not a full-blown melodrama. There is such a rich vein in the erotic fiction field for Victorian melodrama. I can imagine the narrator in the style of a reporter of events - rather like the style Bram Stoker adopted in "Dracula." Or Jules Verne.
To do that successfully, of course, is not easy. The author has to get the language of the period exactly so, and also the circumstances, characters and surroundings. If it slips into current terminology and expression, it falls over.
But that's not a criticism of Vinnie's Victorian romp, merely a desire to see one of those unbelievably sexy period stories done realistically and convincingly.
Urfe has threatened to do it. Maybe he will.
DrSpin
* also at neil@ruthiesclub.com and at http://www.ruthiesclub.com
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 25 Jan 2002 03:49:49 GMT
First of all, I agree pretty much with the comments and suggestions offered by Meme, e e, Father Nat, and DrSpin.
I enjoyed this piece very much and just now went to check on Chapter 1, and I enjoyed that, too.
Here's my newish suggestion/comment:
These chapters don't quite work as well as they might because we don't know quite enough about the charcters, especially the character of our hero, his background, etc. I think only one earlier chapter is needed to set this thing in motion. It's not that we don't have any idea of who this guy is, but we could savor the story of his introduction(s) to this household more if we knew more about him up front - a scene or two showing him in his former habitat and in transition. (I imagine him leaving a demur sweetheart behind, but whatever ...)
A separate but similar issue (partially covered in the earlier comments by others) is that the pace appears just slightly rushed in places. Too eager to get to the sex scenes. Some slow stuff to increase the tease - say a scene at the art school doing those still-lives. Room for some sexy thoughts and reflections there, I'd think.
On the plus side: more please!
- Mat Twassel
From: Desdmona
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 25 Jan 2002 19:10:04 GMT
From: "Desdmona22" <desdmona22@aol.com> Subject: {ASSD} FishTank # 24 Victim Victorian Date: Monday, January 21, 2002 10:37 PM
Ray is having trouble with his ISP and ask me to post his comments to the FishTank. So take it away Ray ....
Victim Victorian (f/M exhib)
Part 2: Art for Art's Sake
by Vinnie Tesla
First, let me say that I have 'not' read part one before making these comments, wishing to see if the preceeding action was 'filled in' here as I read ....
Two positive comments:
1) I enjoyed the story as I read it. Not having read the preceeding part, it took me a few moments to 'catch up' but the clues were there to understand basically what had gone before and I enjoyed the action as it proceeded.
2) At first I thought I was going to make some exception comments about the opening two paragraphs, and I'm still not positive I understand how sea shells and strange corals relate to asphyxiation by vagina but I love the language used none-the-less.
Two corrective comments:
1) Time passage: After returning to the boarding house and his room (Why?) supposedly in mid-afternoon, he is trying to gain some time for himself, for clear thought and proposses 6:00 as a meeting time. Yet with the passage of only a single thought and a slight struggle with the needs of his 'peg' it is six o'clock. Meanwhile, in that short span, Maggie has evidently spoken with her mother and changed her clothing to something which appropriately displayed her feminine charms to better effect.
2) I'm doing something different here: instead of a single straight forward comment about one aspect of the story, I'm going to 'play' editor in a mild degree - primarily pointing out spelling corrections and one or two simple word substitutions. I will delete all other portions of the story save those where I saw a needed correction. (Since I am not an editor, don't be surprised if I miss some).
Corky strained to remember what had happened that day. "In painting class, we did, er, still lives."
(I believe even in pluralization the term is spelled "Still Lifes", something peculiar in the art world only - but not being an art student I could be mistaken)
Soon the girl was released from the whalebone confinement, and she stood clad in her loose chemise before him. Now, with ith a look of fierce determination, she grasped the thin fabric of the chemise, and pulled it over her head.
(with ith? something needs deleting above)
"Mr Brandywine," she exclaimed reproachfully, "you look positively ready to faint! Surely you do'n't find the sight of my body so distressing as that!"
(do'n't - an extra apostrophe above)
Had Corky had his wits about him, he would have immediately agreed with the girl. Where there room in his head at that moment for words and ideas, rather than overwhelming images of firm and yielding feminine flesh, he would not have made so foolish an error. So perhaps we can forgive him for having instead replied, "Why, whatever do you mean?"
(Second sentence: "Were" there room in his head ... - above)
Now two tapered little fingers found the way to the base of Maggie's tender orifice, and slowly pressed inside. With exquisite slow care, they disappeared in to the ripening girl. Then, at the same moment, Maggie's knuckles came to rest against her plump mons as her fingers were swallowed entirely within her sex, and Corky gave forth a strangled groan and twitched several times, as a dark stain began to spread across the front of his trousers.
(Substitute 'simultaneously' for 'at the same time' - above. I know that it means 'at the same time' but the implication of the two can seem to 'imply' different visuals. 'at the same time' - to me at least - feels more clumsy as I read it.)
(Substitute 'twitching' for 'and twitched' removes an unnecessary 'and' and improves the flow - above)
"I think it's almost all up," Maggie interrupted him. "Those trousers will definitely need to be laundered, though." She deftly slipped his boots off him, and was tugging at clothes before he could compose a suitable protest. Before he knew it, he was bare from the waist down, and the nude girl was diving between his limbs to scrutinize the results of her efforts. "Legs seem clean," she noted, running her cool little hands over his inner thighs. "Your cods are cleaned-up" as she stroked his scrotum with her fingertips. The skin tightened under her touch as his tender gonads sought shelter. "Ooh, but a little shy!" she grinned.
(Needs the word 'his' added above - I believe it should read 'and was tugging at 'his' clothes ...'
Then she leapt up spryly and straddled his waist so that her soft bottom was resting on his bare thighs, his ardent prick nestled in her curly motte. She ran her hands through his hair, and pulled his head back so that his eyes met hers. "But I think I'm going to fuck you instead, Mr. Brandywine."
(The start of the above paragraph is clumsy - try 'Leaping up spryly she straddled ...)
And she brought her hand to his cock, and lowered her hips upon it, engulfing him in fluid heat.
(Recommend simply deleting the first 'And' above making it: "She brought her hand ...")
Corky's head fell back and his teeth gritted as he began to pound his hips upward into the shuddering girl. His fingers dug into Maggie's hips and she wailed long and low as he grunted, and with several final violent thrusts, spent into the clutching interior of his adolescent seductress.
(Second sentence above: the first comma is in the wrong place - it should follow, not preceed the 'and' to make your point more recognizable.)
Try Not to repeat:
I hope I didn't, but I downloaded this on Monday, and have not had access to review other's comments for the past few days. Should do it through Google - but I'm feeling lazy and hate browsing the group through Google in any case. :^}
Hope this helps.
Ray
From: PleaseCain
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 25 Jan 2002 20:19:21 GMT
Strong opening, packed with imagery. After that, I felt adrift for a while, as I hadn't read part one. Once I settled in to what you were doing, however, it was enjoyable enough, because your language and dialogue are perfect for this stuff. You have a great ear.
A couple of spots still throw me:
I had to re-read this, because I thought at first that she had shut him out of his own room (perhaps because I was unfamiliar with the "moment ... of last night") -
"Well, I was thinking that today we would just do some charcoal sketches. At six," Corky said, and attempted to slip into his room. She outmaneuvered him, and in a moment uncomfortably reminiscent of last night, shut the door behind herself with an audible click.
Then, I found this section jarring for some reason, that they agree to meet at six and he mops his brow until suddenly it is the appointed time -
She reached up and kissed him on the cheek. "At six!" she cried, and dashed out the door.
Corky sat down heavily and mopped his brow. "What am I going to do?" he murmured to himself desperately. His insolent pego had a suggestion ready. However, well knowing the irreparable harm to physical health and moral fibre that self-abuse exacts, he struggled to ignore his rebellious organ's demands.
Just then he heard the tolling of the clock in the hallway, and with the sixth stroke, Maggie burst once more through the door ....
Fun reading though, because your writing conveys such charm. Thanks for sharing this.
Cain
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:43:16 -0600
On 22 Jan 2002 03:37:47 GMT, desdmona22@aol.com (Desdmona22) wrote:
Negatives first. Other than playing editor and trying to find specific points to address, it isn't easy to find negatives.
A repeat maybe, but I think that the filled daytime period needs more filling. I know that in a tale about sex getting to the sex parts is important, but the day spent wandering in a daze is likely filled with thoughts and observations, such as paying a bit too much attention to the sexual attributes of women seen or met. He sounds like the sort of man who, after such a sexual experience as is described.
That mind-wandering daydreaming stuff could set the stage for his intentions later, to remain pure despite how Maggie acts.
I'm sure it is repeating, but the lack of transition between Maggie leaving and 6 on the clock is jarring.
I'm not a perfect fan of victorian porn stories, but the tale seemed a bit modern in style. Unavoidable, maybe - true 19th century stuff might be too hard for modern readers to get, but the style seemed just a bit out of place. I'm not sure how to fix it because the feeling was so vague. OTOH, as a tale written by a 21st century writer observing 19th century playing, that might not matter.
Good stuff in the whole story, though. The setting seems very nicely done, I got drawn into the world as given and didn't feel too much like an alien, unable to grasp the culture, despite the differences from the late 20th century. The dialog and situations seem perfect for that.
The sex scene (exhibition mainly) is teasing enough to get me hot. I happen to like teases, though I prefer when they carry on to something more. Maggie doesn't quite (yet?) get to doing more with that, but the interruption at the end nicely raises suspense about that too.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:21:21 GMT
On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:22:55 GMT, quoth the meme misspelt <meem17@mwmw.com>:
I was very pleased to see this. I was proud of several of the lines ("with your ...nether parts?"), but I wasn't sure if the humor was there on the page or just in the performances in my own head.
1) I've seen it asserted that the think about the skirts on table legs was probably a joke Oscar Wilde made about those prudish Americans, and not a real phenomenon at all. 2) Maggie's not a particularly normal Victorian girl.
Shit! You're absolutely right - I'm ashamed I didn't realize it myself. Expect to see some version of that implemented in a future revision.
-Vinnie
vinnie_tesla@yahoo.com
http://www.asstr.org/~vinnie_tesla/
Teenaged bisexual nymphomaniacs. Also, quotation marks. -urfe
From: Desdmona
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 27 Jan 2002 21:31:22 GMT
Vinnie~
First off I want to apologize for being late with my comments ... Darn real life!!
I'm absolutely loving this story. I'm not a scholar on the language, dress, and etiquette of the era (although I'm sure the behavior in this story wasn't the norm) but I don't need to be to enjoy it. I get just enough to set the scene in my head, without being overwhelmed with stodginess. The characters are light and humorous and very likeable.
One thing I've noticed after reading both parts I and II, I'm starting to get annoyed at Corky. Sure he's appalled, he's naïve, he's a gentleman ...yeah, yeah, yeah but he's also laying in bed with a hard-on thinking about it ... so I guess I'd like to see some inner conflict at how he's affected by his body's traitorous response to what's going on.
I haven't read everyone's responses so I may be repeating here and I'm sorry if I do, but how is the room "almost familiar" when he hasn't even been in it yet? I actually like the phrase, "almost familiar" and it would work great if he'd just seen his room once ... maybe he could have at least brought his luggage up earlier or something. And then the attack of the Dalrymple's (such a great name) could happen on the tour after he's seen his room.
I think the passage of time when he's not with the trio goes by much too quickly. One tiny little paragraph to describe his day at school and to describe the time before 6pm. Maybe this is Dalrymple (I like saying the name) time but I think there should be a little expansion. Possibly this is when Corky could be analyzing why his body betrays him, or trying to convince himself he's not a lech because he is physically responsive.
And finally, my favorite line:
"I waxed rather enthusiastic ..." (I just loved that line ...it's superb)
I can't wait to read the next installment Vinnie. Bravo!!!
Des
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:36:09 GMT
On 22 Jan 2002 13:25:06 -0800, quoth the nickurfe@yahoo.com (Nicholas Urfe):
Or the other way 'round. Look at "Autobiography of a Flea" - ostensably a first-person narrative, but really a work of entirely third-person porn with a broad anticlerical spin.
- On the one hand, we wish to be
- Is the narrator
Short answer: the former.
Long answer: I don't think the narratorial personality is quite so absent as you do. Passages such as:
Had Corky had his wits about him, he would have immediately agreed with the girl. Where there room in his head at that moment for words and ideas, rather than overwhelming images of firm and yielding feminine flesh, he would not have made so foolish an error. So perhaps we can forgive him for having instead replied, "Why, whatever do you mean?"
suggest a certain amount of cheering for one side or another that the narrator is doing.
But, yeah, I will consider if I want to do more with it subsequently.
Guilty as charged (it's the most popular critique of the story, too). That spot had originally held a placeholder for a plot-and-character developing scene with Beatrice, which I was to get around to writing later. When I finished the end of the story, I found that I still didn't feel like writing the scene, and decided it was kind of amusing to have the interval be about thirty seconds, instead of the hour or so I had originally thought.
I still think, if I made it more emphatic, I could get some humor out of that effect, rather than the widespread confusion I provoked. I remain undecided whether the next revision will go that route, or I'll finally bite the bullet with Beatrice.
that is a delightful idea, but I don't see myself producing it in the forseeable future. If anyone else wants to produce such a document, I will post it with pride & pleasure.
And one does
psst - high tea means the opposite of what you think it means. Oosh could probably explain it better than I, but high (or meat) tea is a substantial meal taken late in the day by the working classes. High refers to the hour, rather than the tone of the gathering.
and what the vicar
I'm afraid you'll be wanting to skip Part 3 (tentatively titled Just Desserts). After that you should be fine for a couple chapters, though. Watch the story codes for individual parts, and you shouldn't have any nasty surprises.
Thank you!
-Vinnie
vinnie_tesla@yahoo.com
http://www.asstr.org/~vinnie_tesla/
Teenaged bisexual nymphomaniacs. Also, quotation marks. -urfe
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:38:42 GMT
On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:56:48 +0200, quoth the "Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com>:
Man, I was sweating bullets already, afraid I'd say something stupid, victorian underwear not being one of my areas of rock-solid scholarship. If I managed to avoid saying anything grossly impossible about Maggie's nether garments, I shall relax in a job well done.
-Vinnie
vinnie_tesla@yahoo.com
http://www.asstr.org/~vinnie_tesla/
Teenaged bisexual nymphomaniacs. Also, quotation marks. -urfe
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:49:31 GMT
On 25 Jan 2002 03:49:49 GMT, quoth the mmtwassel@aol.com (mat twassel):
I emphatically disagree.
It seems to me that with topics like nonconsensual sex or incest, you have a choice. You can confront them head on, like Laura or Celia do, nevr flinching from the emotional damage done by real world experiences of that sort.
Or you can stylize your story unto absurdity like Frank McCoy or (sometimes) DiscipleN, so that they have as much to do with real-life traumas as Road Runner cartoons have to do with nature red in tooth and claw.
I don't have the stomach for the former path. If I give the characters in V/V too much depth and realism, the souffle sits. I'm approaching this very much from the outside - I don't know any more than you do about the late Mr. Dalrymple, I'm not even sure if Maggie lost her virginity in Part 2 (Cork did, of course). For now, I'm comfotable with that as a way to be telling this story.
-Vinnie
vinnie_tesla@yahoo.com
http://www.asstr.org/~vinnie_tesla/
Teenaged bisexual nymphomaniacs. Also, quotation marks. -urfe
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:53:23 GMT
On 25 Jan 2002 19:10:04 GMT, quoth the desdmona22@aol.com (Desdmona22):
Well, that's the lovely thing about dream sequences, innit? Doesn't have to make sense intellectually, so long as it works viscerally.
Cool - I've been sad that this sort of thing is relatively hard to to on the Tank - as I mentioned a few months ago, I think an interesting experiment would be to try doing a Fishtank on a Wiki.
I've fixed the proofreading errors you caught on my local copy. Flow and wording ones will wait for the Big Revision.
-Vinnie
vinnie_tesla@yahoo.com
http://www.asstr.org/~vinnie_tesla/
Teenaged bisexual nymphomaniacs. Also, quotation marks. -urfe
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:04:17 GMT
On 27 Jan 2002 21:31:22 GMT, quoth the desdmona22@aol.com (Desdmona22):
What you propose was my conception of what had happened just before the beginning of Part 1. Guess that wasn't clear enough.
-Vinnie
vinnie_tesla@yahoo.com
http://www.asstr.org/~vinnie_tesla/
Teenaged bisexual nymphomaniacs. Also, quotation marks. -urfe
From: Meme Mispelt
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:03:23 -0500
From: Vinnie Tesla <vinnie_tesla@yahoo.com> Newsgroups: alt.sex.stories.d Subject: Re: {ASSD} FishTank # 24 Victim Victorian
1) I've seen it asserted that the think about the skirts on table legs was probably a joke Oscar Wilde made about those prudish Americans, and not a real phenomenon at all. 2) Maggie's not a particularly normal Victorian girl.
1. Well, whether it was a joke or not, and with caveats about my lack of real expertist still standing, it does seem to have been a (publicly, anyway) culture of uptightness and general repression. There are a coupla art history books 'round my joint, but none serve to provide a real answer to the underlying question, unfortunately.
2. I should hope not! And I hope we learn more about how she defies convention as the series unfolds.
- Meme Misspelt
- http://www.asstr.org/~meme_misspelt/
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 28 Jan 2002 14:57:06 -0700
Meme Mispelt <zedzee@mwmw.com> wrote:
While I don't know about when students started drawing nudes, Victorian artists painted and sculpted nudes all the time. It was one of the weirdnesses about the time (or about the real mores and our understanding of the mores).
Remember, "Dejeuner Sur l'Herbe" shocked people because it was set in modern times, not because the women were undressed.
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c anon584c@nyx.net fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
From: Meme Mispelt
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:57:43 -0500
On 28 Jan 2002, Uther Pendragon wrote:
Right, it's on the subject of what students did or didn't do that my texts fail me. I'm not even sure what would be a good reference for that sort of question.
Well, I was surprised when my own freshman drawing class included nude studies; I sorta thought they might save that for grad school, or at least for sophomores.
Two easy outs for Vinnie have occurred to me though, should he think he needs 'em: first, policies between different schools might vary widely, and Corky might have accidentally matriculated somewhere rather more progressive than he thinks he would have liked (a notion I think is rather promising, actually); it also seems to me that Corky could even have been so flustrered that, without meaning to lie, exactly, he found himself saying he'd done nude drawings before when he really hadn't.
- Meme Misspelt
- http://www.asstr.org/~meme_misspelt/
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:10:58 GMT
On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:57:43 -0500, quoth the Meme Mispelt <zedzee@mwmw.com>:
it also seems to me that Corky could even have been
Where does he say he has?
-Vinnie
vinnie_tesla@yahoo.com
http://www.asstr.org/~vinnie_tesla/
Teenaged bisexual nymphomaniacs. Also, quotation marks. -urfe
From: Meme Mispelt
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:17:25 -0500
On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Vinnie Tesla wrote:
Heh. You're right, of course. I was thinking of this bit, in Chapter 1, where he come close to implying that he has:
"Well ..." he answered, "for figure studies, it's traditional ...that is, in a classroom setting it's really not terribly ...that is to say for, for, for purposes of artistic reference, the model will generally ..."
"You pose NAKED!" stage whispered Beatrice.
"Nude, dear," her mother corrected her firmly.
Maggie blushed a little, but didn't look as displeased as she might. "Oh, my!" she exclaimed. "Is that really quite proper?"
"Now Maggie," answered Mrs. Dalrymple, with an indulgent smile, "I'm sure Mr. Brandywine has enjoyed the sight of dozens of nude young ladies over the years, many nearly as pretty as yourself; and is none the worse for the experience."
"Mrs. Dalrymple!" Corky exclaimed, "I have only been at art school a single week!"
- Meme Misspelt
- http://www.asstr.org/~meme_misspelt/
From: Selena Jardine
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: 29 Jan 2002 11:46:01 -0800
Uther Pendragon <anon584c@nyx.net> wrote in message news:<1012255026.409209@irys.nyx.net> ...
Well ... it was sort of the combination of the two. Dressed modern men picnicking with naked women. As opposed to naked antique Greek fellas picnicking with equally antique Greek sweet young things, or else clothed modern men picnicking with clothed modern women. Or whatever.
My great-grandfather used to say, "You can call me anything you like, just call me in time for dinner. " Give me dejeuner, that's all I ask.
Selena
selenajardine@yahoo.com
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Victim Victorian Part 2: Art for Art's Sake, by Vinnie Tesla
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 17:44:18 -0600
On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:57:43 -0500, Meme Mispelt <zedzee@mwmw.com> wrote:
Nah, they have to get you hooked on art right off, before you get bored and transfer to some other major. Plus it gives better odds that non-art majors might take a few such classes.
It does seem confusing, but maybe it will get cleared up in the next episode.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
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