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From: Elena
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:47:45 +0100
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:vaqe4mlkhl8p1b@news.supernews.com ...
Okay, here's a couple of positives:
Firstly, I loved the way that the story focussed on Laura's feelings and reactions. That really allowed me to get caught up in things.
Secondly, I'm very glad that this one had the code "nosex" - funnily enough, I think a sex scene at the end would have spoiled it for me. This was literally an old-fashioned striptease, leaving the audience (well, me at least) wanting more. The song ends, the dancer steps behind the curtain ...
Two suggestions for improvement?
No way would any responsible club manager have allowed the ending to take place. I find the fact that one of the bouncers or bar staff didn't come up and have a quiet word far more unbelieveable than Laura's behaviour. This sort of stuff can get you in serious trouble with the local authorities.
It's supposedly "Romance Evening" so surely some of those cheering men would have been accompanied by spouses and girlfriends. Where are the females watching that final nude dance, and what are they doing? Why aren't at least a percentage dragging those cheering males away to put a flea in their ear for ogling some nude chick when they should have been paying attention to their date?
I think this story needs the club scene to be more anchored in reality.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:04:05 -0500
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:47:45 +0100, "Elena" <thefabulouselena@yahoo.spam.co.uk> wrote:
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:vaqe4mlkhl8p1b@news.supernews.com ...
Okay, here's a couple of positives:
Firstly, I loved the way that the story focussed on Laura's feelings and reactions. That really allowed me to get caught up in things.
Secondly, I'm very glad that this one had the code "nosex" - funnily enough, I think a sex scene at the end would have spoiled it for me. This was literally an old-fashioned striptease, leaving the audience (well, me at least) wanting more. The song ends, the dancer steps behind the curtain ...
Two suggestions for improvement?
No way would any responsible club manager have allowed the ending to take place. I find the fact that one of the bouncers or bar staff didn't come up and have a quiet word far more unbelieveable than Laura's behaviour. This sort of stuff can get you in serious trouble with the local authorities.
Depending on the club and local authorities, I could see her getting away with this without a hitch. But - I put this in my remarks - the management wouldn't go around without noticing this going on. Cheering it on, maybe, but not ignoring it.
If she didn't notice them noticing her, that makes it either magic, or a set up. In a believable realistic world, who might have done that, suggesting the club and perhaps talking quietly to the management while getting drinks, telling about her plans?
It's supposedly "Romance Evening" so surely some of those cheering men would have been accompanied by spouses and girlfriends. Where are the females watching that final nude dance, and what are they doing? Why aren't at least a percentage dragging those cheering males away to put a flea in their ear for ogling some nude chick when they should have been paying attention to their date?
Well, some of them are probably cheering as well. The others maybe know better than to let their guys hang around this place when a special floor show is going to happen?
I think this story needs the club scene to be more anchored in reality.
Only if it is trying to be real. Something that I think may help, but it isn't necessary.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: meme misspelt
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 02:10:49 GMT
In article <vaqe4mlkhl8p1b@news.supernews.com>, Desdmona <me@desdmona.com> wrote:
The following story is the first submission for one of our faithful contributors. It is a complete story with 3,916 words. In the author's own words:
"The story below was one of my first stories, and is still one of my favorites. I've been wanting to improve it for a while now, and finally came up with the result below. I now feel confident enough to submit it to the scrutiny of the FishTank, and am open for any and all suggestions."
FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
being a renegade, i'm going to offer just one of each:
Positive:
I've done some time at trade shows, I've even done time trying to sell software at (largely) hardware tradeshows ... this part of the story felt very grounded and credible to me.
Possible improvement:
"Slowly, Laura turned away from the window and went into the bathroom. When she emerged twenty minutes later, she felt fresh, awake, and very angry at her boss. He had used a lot of nice words when he called her into his office, but it had boiled down"
I had to read this three times before I realized that her boss hadn't called her into his office while she was in the bathroom. Possibly "but still very angry t her boss" ?
- Meme Misspelt
- http://www.asstr.org/~meme_misspelt/
From: Bradley Stoke
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: 29 Apr 2003 10:52:11 -0700
Altan
A tender and evocative tale of exhibitionism, nicely understated and rather the more erotic for being so. I liked the gradual progression of the numbers, each button counting off the hour, until finally the last button marks midnight.
There's been a long tradition of striptease for many years now. The slow removal of clothes, one by one, to reveal the body underneath isn't so much a fantasy as a fact, enacted every day for men in plush, relatively sedate, surroundings, and for women in comparatively boisterous ones. For many people, the teasing is perhaps more erotic than the revealed naked body and it's a pleasure to find a story that attempts to capture this. Dallas, however, sounds like a pretty prudish place. Who's not been to a nightclub where there's been at least a little bit of gratuitous exhibitionism, and sometimes rather a lot? And although you obviously can't keep your eyes off what's on display (if only to make notes for future comparison), it'd be a little uncool to stop what you're doing altogether just to stare at someone in the nude. That would give the impression (which you'd never want to do) that this was something that in some sense was a kind of big deal. But then I never go to nightclubs where they play "romantic" music (perhaps someone can elucidate for me what that might be: Hot Chocolate? Billy Joel? Celine Dion? If that's "romantic", I'd plump for hard house any day!)
I enjoyed the story. It was wise to set the point of view from Laura's eyes: it made her views of Pete and Miriam that much more interesting. The story was paced well and the conclusion, although well hinted at by the story codes, was nonetheless satisfying.
All in all, economical in the telling and teasing in the way it was clearly intending to be. However, it's mandatory to find something to suggest to improve. Well, there were only two things which bothered me. One was the way the description of Laura's body was piled on at the beginning rather than revealed gradually with each undone button. That would have been more erotic I think. The other was that the descriptions of the settings could have been fleshed out more. Nudity in public is the more erotic when the setting in which it occurs is the more vivid.
All in all, well done.
Bradley Stoke
http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke
From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 02:32:05 GMT
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:19:49 -0700, Desdmona wrote:
"The story below was one of my first stories, and is still one of my favorites. I've been wanting to improve it for a while now, and finally came up with the result below. I now feel confident enough to submit it to the scrutiny of the FishTank, and am open for any and all suggestions."
********************************
Laura (exhib nosex)
By Altan
altan1@bigfoot.com
The positives:
I went in with a critical attitude and at first, noticed technical aspects. Once past the opening, it drew me in and kept me there. I forgot about being critical and just read the story for the pleasure of reading it. The story itself does a great job of slowly overwhelming any techinical problems that are there.
WSoD made me ignore the fact I know that clubs would never allow things to progress as they did. By the time I got there, I didn't care. You and Laura convinced me it that it couldn't happen any other way. It takes a good writer to make me ignore the nagging little voice that keeps whispering: 'reality ain't so'.
The negatives:
I loved the feel of the opening. I found the mix of sentence lengths distracting.
With a deep sigh she got out of bed and walked over to the open window. She felt the early morning sun warming her bare skin. "At least it is not raining," she thought to herself. "That's an advantage of a Dallas tradeshow." She gazed out at the street below, the toy cars and small figures rushing through the streets. A city waking up to another day.
"A city waking up to another day."
Nothing wrong with it but after the previous sentences it felt abrupt and jarred me partly out of the flow. A change as simple as changing it to 'Dallas was waking up to another day.' would smooth the flow, imo. :)
This sort 'sentence fragment' intrusion happens elsewhere, too.
And while we're here ... I had trouble staying with the story because things didn't feel right during the opening.
Do hotels have windows that open? Or are the curtains open, letting the sun in? Then she decides she doesn't care who sees her, after we find out she must be quite a ways up. 'Toy cars and small figures' seems to imply that whoever sees her naked is going to be using something other than their eyes. Could this be 'fixed' by having her look across the street at a different hotel and realize that anyone looking in her direction could see her?
Once past the opening, I was too involved in the story to pay attention to any problems - and I've used up my quota of comments, anyway.
Overall, 'Laura' is a good read and I enjoyed it very much
They say I'm out of style.
But my time's comin' 'round again.
I'm gonna go that extra mile.
- Quoted from 'The Extra Mile' as sung by Tom Russell
http://storiesonline.net/Stasya_T_Canine no logins, no ads, no banners, no cookies - no other annoyances Free, text, thanks to Lazeez at http://storiesonline.net General audience furry stories: http://www.furnation.com/Nikkolai
From: Conjugate
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:29:25 -0600
Alas, I'm this far down and may not repeat. What a tragedy. :-)
I would have observed that the descriptive block in the third paragraph, all about Laura's view of herself, was somewhat traditional, if not clichéd, but another commentator preceded me. Besides, it isn't all that bad. Perhaps you should not be quite so precise (age 29, five foot 11). Just say, "late 20s, tall" and it won't set off quite so many "superfluous statistics" alarms amongst readers already sick of more explicit numbers (8-inch or more cocks, 38DD or bigger breasts, etc.) Not that you committed those crimes, or even came close. I would just say that my response to that paragraph was that I was afraid you were about to.
Okay, that's enough giving you a hard time. Now for the nice remarks. First of all, I can't point out that the character was very well drawn, and that I liked the way she handled her situation. I also liked Pete and Miriam, who seem to have been pretty much ideal people for that situation.
Oh, I suppose I should pick one more tiny nit here. For instance, when you wrote, near the end:
"No, of course not" Pete replied, sliding into his seat. "You can stick as close as you want to."
I could not help but visualize Laura, nude, sitting on a vinyl seat, and sticking as close .... well, ouch. Never mind. Okay, that was a completely trivial and off-putting observation. But I have seen people comment that making a small typo into a "point to improve" is niggling (I won't say niggardly; that got somebody fired when it was assumed to be a racial epithet. You see .... NO! Must ...stay ...on topic ....must struggle to ... remember subject ...) so I'm stuck with making silly remarks. I liked the story. Not a super-hot stroke story, but not intended to be. Fun and light-hearted. Thank you for posting it.
Conjugate
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:53:42 -0500
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:19:49 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote:
The following story is the first submission for one of our faithful contributors. It is a complete story with 3,916 words. In the author's own words:
"The story below was one of my first stories, and is still one of my favorites. I've been wanting to improve it for a while now, and finally came up with the result below. I now feel confident enough to submit it to the scrutiny of the FishTank, and am open for any and all suggestions."
FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
OK, first, a small bit of repeating: The tale starts with a grounding in reality, but ends in a fashion which makes it purely fantasy. Possible, but not believable in the real world.
That is OK, but you read the whole story to reach the ending which makes this entirely obvious. It makes me feel a little bit cheated, because the dare of naked exposure in public is stronger when the risks feel real.
Whether that should be changed or not, I can't say. But it gets to me, so I think I'll concentrate on bits of unreality for my suggestions.
Yet, since the tale is a fantasy, I don't know if those will be so helpful.
I enjoy exhibitionism, so this tale truly appeals to me. We have three players, Pete - who doesn't show off but is the primary audience for the show, Miriam, a "guest star" whose interest has some real power for the fantasy angle (whereas if this were RL, Pete should be wondering if he is about to lose his hot date to an even hotter woman, not imagining the possibilities of a threesome). Plus Laura, the star.
Because it shows all of them, it is more than just Laura's fantasy. Maybe it could really happen, but that doesn't matter. She gets to have her own perfect evening, rather than wasting another day on her job, no fun in that.
Bits and pieces, not critical to change, just thoughts: A pretty girl, and Laura describes herself too well as that to be otherwise, at a trade show is often intended to sell a product on her merits, not its own qualities. Perhaps she had resisted that plan, but certainly it seems like her boss, inconsiderate in other ways, might well exploit that sexist situation. I'd think she should resent it.
But thinking about that would lead naturally to her turning the role on, and then some, like she does. Doing a strip tease on the convention floor, very slowly, certainly should help sales, at least among those customers attracted to sexy females. Does she care? I'm not sure exactly what she is thinking at that point.
She doesn't mind showing off naked in the high hotel window, where it is unlikely anyone can really see her. But as best as I can tell, she's never tried anything quite like this. Has she forgone underwear before? I'd think that alone would be a big step for a woman who never tried it, so perhaps she has?
I like the overall flow of the story, and the dancing striptease game is exciting. It is fine as it is, but some things just could use a bit more reality, to sharpen the edges.
Laura finished collecting her lunch, paid, and sat at an empty table. She ate slowly, looking around her. It didn't take long for someone to join her and within five minutes the table was filled with men, all eager to chat with her. Laura mainly smiled but did not say much. Every now and then she would bend over her plate, letting her blouse drop open. The thought that there were seven men here intent on watching her was exciting, and she enjoyed every moment.
This is nice, concentrating on her reactions. She is looking for attention from the guys, and getting it. Does she care how the women react, or others around?
Moreover, while her outfit is maybe a bit flashy, it isn't unusual for trade shows to have models help "demonstrate" products, wearing sex outfits. Maybe she isn't quite so out of place, just moving into a different role? Would she notice that, or think about it? My guess, based on her reactions, is that she has little interest in exposing herself to women (or children, should any show up). But there are going to be other females around, and I just can't see her being entirely unaware of them.
"Hi, my name is Miriam and I will be your server tonight. Can I get you something to drink while ..."
The waitress stopped in mid sentence when she noticed Laura's outfit. "This is it," Laura thought, "now we will be thrown out of here." But instead, Miriam cleared her throat, winked at Laura and said to Pete, "while you enjoy the view?"
Pete turned red once more, but checked himself and said, "yes, please." They both ordered a glass of wine.
Right around this point, if I were Laura, my heart would be beating very hard, and I'd be feeling more than a little hot between my legs. A pretty waitress just "caught" her, and gave her the go ahead to show off in the club for her "boyfriend" Pete.
Dinner lasted for over an hour, and the next blouse button was undone at eight. Service was excellent, almost as if Miriam never took her eyes off of them. After a last cup of coffee, they got up and went to the disco next door.
A small thing, it can be tricky to keep track of the buttons. This is the "next to last" button, not just the next. Knowing that there is only one button left, and that her blouse is essentially wide open even with the button in place, should make a difference. Having been there, and "done that" (or watched it done at least), if the blouse is tucked in a belt it can still work fine for cover while stationary, something which someone who has never tried this might be surprised to realize.
To Laura's surprise, Pete turned out to be a good dancer. Laura had told Pete she wanted to stick with the slower numbers, sitting out the wilder ones. Fortunately, it turned out to be "Romance Evening" at the disco with a lot of slow numbers. When they danced close together, Laura could feel the bulge in Pete's pants growing each time she touched him.
At nine, the seventh button of her skirt came loose. Laura knew from the experiments in front of the mirror that with a little shuffling her pubic hair became exposed. At the next close dance, she made sure she could feel the fabric of Pete's pants on her bare skin. Pete was getting bolder and let his hands slide under her skirt, massaging her bare buttocks.
"Lift my skirt," she whispered in his ear when they came back on the dance floor after a drink. "Move your hands up to my back, and I'll pretend not to notice. I want everyone to see my bare ass."
Pete grinned and slowly moved his stroking hands upwards, all the way to the curve in her back. There could be no doubt anymore that Laura was not even wearing a G-string. Laura's heart was pounding, she expected a manager to come over any minute. But nobody came and they finished the dance together.
Right around here, I think someone should have noticed. Maybe Laura didn't see, but what if the manager nodded to Pete, indicating that this activity was OK to continue.
At ten, the last button of her blouse became undone. A series of very fast numbers started and Pete and Laura returned to their table. Everyone in the disco had noticed Laura, of course, but she had refused the other dance offers.
This is why the management can't be unaware of this going on. I can buy a club allowing it, depending on the situation. If they feel secure about such things, this is at the "no big deal" stage. Laura doesn't know, but does Pete know about this? If this is the sort of place where some tabloid coverage of topless starlet or cheerleader dances happened, that would make it easier to explain why some flashing stranger wouldn't be a hassle.
When they were about to sit down, a female voice asked, "may I have this dance?"
Here we have one of those complications with reality. If I'm female, and another female asks me to dance when I'm nearly naked, I don't have to leap far to come to an obvious conclusion. We have some suggestion of this from the earlier encounters (and as she was the server, perhaps we should have noticed Miriam checking Laura out).
Laura turned to see Miriam, the waitress from the restaurant, standing there smiling at her. Miriam had changed into a very thin blouse, knotted in the front, and a long skirt. She stood there smiling, waiting for an answer.
"I'm sorry, I can't," Laura said. "Not dressed like this. They would throw me out when I danced now."
"Of course you can," Miriam replied. Her smile deepened. "I'll match your attire." With that, she untied her blouse so that it hung as loose as Laura's. Then she took the hem of her skirt, and tore it all the way up to the waistband. She wasn't wearing anything underneath either.
Here, this makes me wonder again. Not that she wasn't wearing anything underneath - seducing a sexy wild panty-skipping woman is easier that way. But she tore her nice skirt, when she wore it on purpose to go pick up her. Or at least, it sure seems like that to me.
Why not a full length zippered skirt? It is long, right? No reason it can't have full zippers either, though of course that is a matter of style. Anyway, the ripping thing isn't so easy to do, while unzipping is pretty easy.
As for the topless dance, and the final bit getting ready and everyone watching, there is something missing.
The female watchers. And the staff. If they aren't watching in admiration too, you have a problem. If they are upset, you have a worse problem, and if they aren't there? Well, that makes it an even more unreal place.
For the right club, a girl stripping naked wouldn't be a fatal shocker. In fact, I'd bet that a bunch of patrons either feign ignoring it, or actually do so. None of their business if some girl wants to show off, right? Plus some probably aren't into looking at naked women anyway.
I don't know how much of that aspect you want to fit into the tale. Laura probably wouldn't pay so much attention to the guys who aren't looking at her breathlessly, nor perhaps to most of the woman, Miriam excepted.
At exactly midnight, Laura unhurriedly undid the last button from her skirt and let it fall to the floor. Then she put her arms back around Pete's neck while they continued their slow dance.
Pete let his arms slide down to Laura's bare buttocks and held her close to him. Dancing around them came to a stop when people noticed Laura's nakedness. Then the pace of the music picked up and Laura and Pete started to swing. No longer shielded by Pete's body, men all around them enjoyed the sight of Laura's nude body and started cheering the couple on.
Here, we are missing Miriam. She was there to watch, and presumably still has her own top off. Actually, if Laura is still dancing topless, it is hard to believe that every guy there is staying at such a distance as to miss seeing her skirt fall.
Why not a three-way dance, if Miriam is looking to set up a three-way? I'm not sure that she is, but bowing out to let Pete dance with Laura, who seems a kindred spirit, does seem out of place. Wouldn't Laura notice where Miriam is, either as competitor or potential lover?
I don't want to sound like I am complaining about these things. The tale is fine without answering them, as long as I suspend disbelief. I had no trouble doing that on first read.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Vulgar Argot
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:21:55 -0400
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:vaqe4mlkhl8p1b@news.supernews.com ...
FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
OK. This is my first time in the Fish Tank. I'll try to be gentle.
First of all, a very hot story. Maybe it just matches my kink well, but I liked the viewpoint character enought to want her to have a positive experience. She seems fairly realistically drawn, certainly within the context of the genre. All the best stroke material IMANVHO is about characters that you care whether they get laid or not (even if they don't.)
I love the pacing. You give a solid build up that strikes the right tension between wanting to skim to the end and wanting to savor the moment. It's a hard balance to acheive. It helps that you've created a scenario where the tension is incremental and the payoff a release. Different things are possible at two buttons or four than when you're all buttoned up.
Where I would most want to see improvement on a second draft is in the supporting characters. Pete is sketchily drawn at best. We don't need a full history, but all that we really know about him is that (a) he likes looking at naked women and (b) when he takes the opportunity to talk, all he can do is go on about how boring his day was. I'd like more of a sense of why Laura chose him. Being chosen for booth proximity at a trade show may be some guys' fantasy, but I doubt it has broad appeal.
I have a similar issue with Miriam. She seems sort of tacked on for lesbian appeal. I'd like to see a little bit of foreshadowing in the restaurant as to her interest in Laura. Why does she show up at the disco? Is she interested in taking Laura home or just getting in on the exhibitionist fun? When she matches Laura's bravado, is it a new experience for her or is she a wild child enjoying bringing some fresh blood into the fold? You can do a lot of this in surprisingly few words. Does she find out about the disco by eavesdropping or does she come right out and ask, "So, are you folks planning on doing anything after dinner?"
Another element I'd like to see worked on is smoothing out the character growth. Laura is having a New Exhilirating Experience. How new and how exhilirating are a big part of making the story work. I want to know why she would even consider going naked in public. If all we're going to know about her exhibitionist past is the incident in the mall, I'd like to see that incident fleshed out in a lot more detail.
Also, what is Laura's reaction to Miriam joining them? How does this tie into the New Exhilirating Experience? Is dancing topless with another woman new to her or old hat? How about being the object of a woman's frank, open interest (if Miriam is interested in her and not just sharing the experience?) She seems to be taking it in stride. I recognize that she's pretty much thrown all caution to the wind by this point, but I'd still like to get some sense of her response to all this newness.
All in all, this is a very solid story that I would have read and enjoyed and not noticed much in the way of things needing improvement if I were not actively critiquing it.
From: Tesseract
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: 30 Apr 2003 22:12:23 -0700
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:<vaqe4mlkhl8p1b@news.supernews.com> ...
Laura (exhib nosex)
By Altan
altan1@bigfoot.com
Good story. I always thought that there was more to those exhibitors than meets the eye. I could understand Laura, how bored she was, how resentful, and how she could take advantage of her anonymity.
Miriam was a nice surprise after I thought I knew where the story was going.
I found one technical problem. I think there is a bit of a tense problem here:
She gave Pete a wink and walked away to the exit. Laura knew that he must be just amazed at his luck right now, but probably didn't anticipate what would happen tonight.
Then a carpenter, on his way out before the public arrived, whistled as he passed her.
Isn't it a bit of a cliche that construction people always whistle? Couldn't they be perfect gentlemen?
She is a salesperson; these people are usually outgoing. And this is the third day of the trade show, so it is a bit strange that she and Pete haven't at least exchanged social pleasantries already.
I liked the flow of the story. It just needs a bigger finish. I agree with Elena that a real sex scene would not fit and could ruin the story. But something more climatic than a few cheers is needed.
Tesseract
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 13:35:31 -0500
On 30 Apr 2003 22:12:23 -0700, HyperTesseract@hotmail.com (Tesseract) wrote:
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:<vaqe4mlkhl8p1b@news.supernews.com> ...
I found one technical problem. I think there is a bit of a tense problem here: She gave Pete a wink and walked away to the exit. Laura knew that he must be just amazed at his luck right now, but probably didn't anticipate what would happen tonight.
If the subject of "probably didn't anticipate" is Laura, it is just fine.
Then a carpenter, on his way out before the public arrived, whistled as he passed her.
Isn't it a bit of a cliche that construction people always whistle? Couldn't they be perfect gentlemen?
It is a cliche for sure. It could have been anyone, including one of the convention's managers doing this whistling in order to fill the plot point.
She is a salesperson; these people are usually outgoing. And this is the third day of the trade show, so it is a bit strange that she and Pete haven't at least exchanged social pleasantries already.
Not all are outgoing, it is a strange thing that way. Especially for tech sales. Still, it is sort of ordinary to say hi to your neighbors, no matter what.
Hard to say how to interpret that. Either one could be shy enough about talking to strangers, especially if their products don't offer a reason for business conversation.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Tesseract
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: 1 May 2003 20:11:27 -0700
Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<bvp2bvgagtetp4i49a2drpimuika4nipe9@4ax.com> ...
On 30 Apr 2003 22:12:23 -0700, HyperTesseract@hotmail.com (Tesseract) wrote:
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:<vaqe4mlkhl8p1b@news.supernews.com> ...
I found one technical problem. I think there is a bit of a tense problem here: She gave Pete a wink and walked away to the exit. Laura knew that he must be just amazed at his luck right now, but probably didn't anticipate what would happen tonight.
If the subject of "probably didn't anticipate" is Laura, it is just fine.
I think the problem is the word "tonight." The whole story is in the past tense but "tonight" is the future. It might read better as " ...what would happen later that night."
Tesseract
From: oosh
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:04:04 +0000 (UTC)
Laura (exhib nosex)
By Altan
Having read the criticisms to date before I actually read the story (my news service seems to have Alzheimer's) I was surprised at how enjoyable the story was. There are one or two superfluous adverbs, but the writing style is reasonably spare and effective.
I liked the build-up and the use of suspense. The hourly unbuttoning was a good idea, effectively used.
Miriam was a problem for me. She was gainfully employed in the restaurant: frankly interested in Laura, but casually so. Being less overwhelmed, she was able to amplify Pete's incoherent and inhibited reaction to Laura's charms. That was a good device. But then - perhaps on second thoughts - she is interested enough to follow Laura to the night club. That seems to indicate a pretty serious interest, as does the abandoned dance the two women have together. But once they're off the dance floor, she quite cheerfully backs off and leaves Laura with Pete. That didn't ring true to me. I wouldn't follow a young woman I fancied into a night club in order to sit back and watch her seduce someone else. I think the story would be stronger if Miriam put up a bit more of a fight (or else was omitted).
Neither of Laura's admirers gets the opportunity to enlist our sympathy - not enough to make a denouement emotionally satisfying. Both Pete and Miriam really serve to reflect and amplify Laura's attractiveness. The main psychological thrust is that their admiration arouses Laura and goads her into more and more disinhibited behaviour. It's good to have Laura doubtful in her quiet moments, but deriving such pleasure from being attractive to them that she becomes reckless. We have a good dynamic then: Laura's attractiveness drives Pete and Miriam to pay attention to Laura, which in turn encourages her to more and more extreme behaviour in order to attract them further and further.
I think it would be best if the story could end on just that point. Beyond it, the more Laura continues to encourage her admirers, the more predictable the outcome, thus breaking continuity with the suspense and anticipation that went before. As the decisive moment approaches, ought Laura not to be increasingly conflicted, conscious that a point of no return is being reached? And what is her focus? Is it really Pete? Or Miriam? Or is it rather her own power, the power of her attractiveness? The build-up suggests to me that it is her sense of her own power that motivates Laura, not her specific attraction to Pete or Miriam.
If Miriam were dropped from the night-club scene, we could be left to expect a straightforward romp with Pete. But if Miriam stays, the best way to end would be with Laura finally deciding to go all the way - but whether with Miriam, Pete or both could be better left unresolved. It would be more tantalizing that way, but also giving more emphasis to the real emotional force that has driven the plot thus far.
O.
From: Tesseract
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: 2 May 2003 21:44:30 -0700
oosh <oosh@gmx.NOSPAM.net> wrote in message news:<Xns936FADA5F3197ooshgmxnet@217.32.252.50> ...
Laura (exhib nosex)
By Altan
Having read the criticisms to date before I actually read the story (my news service seems to have Alzheimer's) I was surprised at how enjoyable the story was.
Why? Most offerings to the Fish Tank are quite good; the sharks are just easily riled into a feeding frenzy.
I'm not sure why, but it is hard to point to good things in a story, especially a good story. And, except for an exceptional turn of phrase, these things are quite general. It is a rare story where one would point out individual occurrences of them:
Good technical skills - grammar and spelling. The author should be commended for properly forming the contraction in the thirty-seventh word of the second paragraph.
Sentences varying in length and style. The author keeps the reader's interest by starting the third sentence with an interjection, rather than the simple declarative sentences use to that point.
Characterization. The first sentence introduced the reader to the physical reality of the main character and provided insight into her mental state.
Plot. The nineth paragraph is central to setting up the plot for the rest of the story. We are lucky that the author wrote it, otherwise we readers would not have a clue what the story is about.
There are many occurrences of these things, each working with the others in a synergistic way to create a story much better than these individual parts would indicate. Any one instance is not important and would not be missed; it is only the collection and how the author assembles it that is important.
Since these things are best described in generalties and are few in number, with the injuction not to repeat there isn't all that much to say. Anyway, it's much more fun pointing out things to change.
I think it would be best if the story could end on just that point. Beyond it, the more Laura continues to encourage her admirers, the more predictable the outcome, thus breaking continuity with the suspense and anticipation that went before. As the decisive moment approaches, ought Laura not to be increasingly conflicted, conscious that a point of no return is being reached? And what is her focus? Is it really Pete? Or Miriam? Or is it rather her own power, the power of her attractiveness? The build-up suggests to me that it is her sense of her own power that motivates Laura, not her specific attraction to Pete or Miriam.
If Miriam were dropped from the night-club scene, we could be left to expect a straightforward romp with Pete. But if Miriam stays, the best way to end would be with Laura finally deciding to go all the way - but whether with Miriam, Pete or both could be better left unresolved. It would be more tantalizing that way, but also giving more emphasis to the real emotional force that has driven the plot thus far.
O.
Maybe something like this:
Laura, topless and with only one button holding up her skirt, looked at Pete and Miriam and said, "Its just seconds to midnight. Who wants to dance with me?"
- The End -
I thought the ending was weak. This way each reader can imagine her own ending.
Tesseract
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: 03 May 2003 02:45:32 GMT
Some comments and suggestions:
1. "Laura" as it turns out is not a particularly interesting or useful title.
2. Generally the writing is sound. Still, I get the feeling some fine-tooth combing wouldn't hurt. Let's look at the first paragraph.
Laura knew it would be another boring day the moment she opened
her eyes. She looked at the white walls with the obligatory semi-rustic picture, the large mirror next to the 32-inch television: a hotel room indistinguishable from all the others. Yes, it would be another day of standing at the booth, waiting for customers that would not come, watching the business men in their blue and gray suits pass by without even glancing at her company's brochures. A complete waste of time and money.<<
The list in the second sentence needs at least one additional item. Or if there is no other item, say so: She looked at the white walls with the obligatory semi-rustic picture, the large mirror next to the 32-inch television, the - but there was nothing else, nothing else of any interest at all - it was a hotel room indistinguishable from all the other hotel rooms. Another option would be to drop the list in favor of simply the white wall and perhaps come back to the mirror.
Customers are people, so to my ear it should be "customers who would not come."
"Glancing" in the phrase: "watching businessmen in their blue and grass suits pass by without even glancing" is a little distracting, a little hard to follow. Change the form to avoid confusion: without even a glance.
One other note: "She looked at" presents an active picture. I see Laura looking. I'm aware of her awareness. The question is: is she extra aware? Or is this just another ordinary awakening? I'm not sure you need or want more or less than "looked," but it's something to look at.
Small stuff, but there is much of it. One other quick example:
For almost as long as she could remember men had tried to steal <<
Vital to put a comma after "remember." It's not a matter of rules; the sentence simply doesn't read right without the comma.
3. >>she would undo one button every hour<<
I love the setup.
4. Nice early development:
People were feigning interest in her company as an excuse to stop and get a
closer look. <<
At this point I "predicted" that the resolution would eventually involve the business. False lead, as it turns out, but that's okay, though I almost wish at least a little more had been made of the business side of the adventure.
5. >>"Move your hands up to my back, and I'll pretend not to notice. I want everyone to see my bare ass."<<
For me, this is where the excitement of the story reaches its peak. And it has been very exciting up to here. What's interesting is that it's more the thrill of whether she'll be caught and tossed out of the club than the pure sensations of the exposure that excite Laura.
6. With the appearance of Miriam at the disco, the excitement dissipates. It's not a horrible ending by any means, but it's not up to what came before. Part of my disappointment may simply be that the story did not go quite where I wanted it to go. I won't go into detail about the plot I would have picked, but I will say that it would involve some competition and tension between Miriam, Laura, and Peter.
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Kelli Halliburton
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 07:52:50 GMT
mat twassel wrote:
Some comments and suggestions:
1. "Laura" as it turns out is not a particularly interesting or useful title.
The Revelation of Laura the Salesrep.
From: Conjugate
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 20:24:06 -0600
"Kelli Halliburton" <kelli217@crosswinds.not> wrote in message news:mzKsa.1293$sb7.781@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com ...
mat twassel wrote:
Some comments and suggestions:
1. "Laura" as it turns out is not a particularly interesting or useful title.
The Revelation of Laura the Salesrep.
How Laura Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Conventions.
Throwing Yourself Into Your Work.
Scantily-Clad Vixen Sales Representatives.
Conjugate
thinking of more ideas.
From: Altan
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 01:28:10 GMT
Hi Everyone,
Thank you all for responding to my swim in the FishTank. I expected good feedback, but the responses far exceeded my expectations.
Before I get to the suggestions, I want to say that the positive parts really helped increase my confidence as a writer. Desdmona, the way you designed the FishTank with the positives and improvements worked out extremely well for me! Thanks!
The suggestions were very good ones, and I expect to implement almost all of them in an improved version I want to start working on. What I would like to respond to, though, is the issue of believability of the "club" part. It is clear that that whole section comes across as pure fantasy. Of course, this can be OK if that is the story you want to create, but it isn't what I tried to achieve. I want something that might be very unlikely, but not impossible.
I got a couple of ideas from the feedback. To start with, I'll drop Miriam from that whole part. It was remarked more than once that Miriam's behavior doesn't make sense: if she isn't after Laura, what is she doing there? And what about Pete? The whole story gets far more complicated, and those complications have nothing to do with what the core of the story is (to me, at least): showing how Laura becomes an exhibitionist.
With Miriam gone, Pete's reactions will become much more important. I have largely ignored him, but yes, of course he is going to react. I guess he will be much like me.
Then the club itself, and this is something I hope some of you may be able to help me with. I am thinking about a club or dancing or something like that where showing some skin is accepted, maybe even encouraged. But I don't want to make it a nightclub with stripteases going on or topless waiters or such. However, I have no experience whatsoever of club or dancings, I've never been in any. How would a place like the one I'm looking for be known, how would it advertise itself? What would the expectation be?
Another major topic (for me) is about the changes in Laura, how she changes from a relatively shy sales person to dancing in the nude. I want this change to be believable too; as I mentioned before, this is what the story to me is about.
I think there are two important moments I have to make clear in the story. The first one is in the restaurant, when Miriam "approves" of what is happening. This, I think, will give Laura the confidence that it is more than the horny young guy in front of her, that she is not making an utter fool of herself to the rest of the world. The second part has to come in the club. The reactions of the public, encouraging her to go on. Maybe the moment when she walks up to the dance floor, knowing that during the next dance, her blouse will be going. That should fill her with such an excitement that she doesn't want to stop, wants to go on and on.
Well, I guess I have my work cut out for me. Again, thanks everyone for their contributions. I've saved all responses and will be re-reading them, thinking about what is brought up, a couple more times.
A.
http://www.asstr.org/~altan/
From: RodR
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: 5 May 2003 07:26:56 -0700
Altan <altan1@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:<7640.1052098090.altan1@bigfoot.com> ...
Hi Everyone,
Hey Altan,
I enjoyed the story. As usual I didn't post anything to the fishtank for this story, by the time I read it all the good comments and suggestions were taken.
Now I have an opportunity to make a suggestion or two:
Then the club itself, and this is something I hope some of you may be able to help me with. I am thinking about a club or dancing or something like that where showing some skin is accepted, maybe even encouraged. But I don't want to make it a nightclub with stripteases going on or topless waiters or such. However, I have no experience whatsoever of club or dancings, I've never been in any. How would a place like the one I'm looking for be known, how would it advertise itself? What would the expectation be?
Make the club clothing optional. There could be a few naked people running around like it's no big deal. Yet a young woman stripping during a dance would still attract attention.
Another major topic (for me) is about the changes in Laura, how she changes from a relatively shy sales person to dancing in the nude. I want this change to be believable too; as I mentioned before, this is what the story to me is about.
I don't know any shy sales people. Maybe change this to a weeklong job fair and Laura a junior HR rep?
I think there are two important moments I have to make clear in the story. The first one is in the restaurant, when Miriam "approves" of what is happening. This, I think, will give Laura the confidence that it is more than the horny young guy in front of her, that she is not making an utter fool of herself to the rest of the world. The second part has to come in the club. The reactions of the public, encouraging her to go on. Maybe the moment when she walks up to the dance floor, knowing that during the next dance, her blouse will be going. That should fill her with such an excitement that she doesn't want to stop, wants to go on and on.
Well, I guess I have my work cut out for me. Again, thanks everyone for their contributions. I've saved all responses and will be re-reading them, thinking about what is brought up, a couple more times.
A.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://www.asstr.org/~altan/
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Rod
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 21:39:46 -0500
On Mon, 5 May 2003 01:28:10 GMT, Altan <altan1@bigfoot.com> wrote:
Hi Everyone,
Thank you all for responding to my swim in the FishTank. I expected good feedback, but the responses far exceeded my expectations.
I got a couple of ideas from the feedback. To start with, I'll drop Miriam from that whole part. It was remarked more than once that Miriam's behavior doesn't make sense: if she isn't after Laura, what is she doing there? And what about Pete? The whole story gets far more complicated, and those complications have nothing to do with what the core of the story is (to me, at least): showing how Laura becomes an exhibitionist.
Miriam complicates things, so if you want a more complicated plot, she fits in. The mystery of what she is after doesn't need solving, but you do kind of need to have your own ideas.
Of course, complications mean possible plot twists, and those would detract from the main theme. Nothing wrong with Miriam being an encouraging admirer in the restaurant, that doesn't complicate things. Showing up at the club does - she has to be not only an exhibitionist, but looking for a fling with Laura, and possibly Pete.
Then the club itself, and this is something I hope some of you may be able to help me with. I am thinking about a club or dancing or something like that where showing some skin is accepted, maybe even encouraged. But I don't want to make it a nightclub with stripteases going on or topless waiters or such. However, I have no experience whatsoever of club or dancings, I've never been in any. How would a place like the one I'm looking for be known, how would it advertise itself? What would the expectation be?
I can't tell for Dallas (or otherwise in Texas), but in big cities in the northern USA, there are fun "wild" clubs around. The usual rules don't allow mixing deliberate staff nudity with impromptu patron nudity, presuming that the club is an "ordinary" sort of place. Strip clubs and sexy clothing optional places are another thing, but it just doesn't seem to me that either Pete or Laura would just pick out that sort of club on purpose.
Other naked patrons or staff around would also be rather obvious. To fit the tale, it thus needs to be a place where patron flashing is acceptable, but not a regular activity.
So to me, it only needs to be fashionable enough to allow wild dancing and patron parties. Not too crowded, not too brightly lit, and definitely a dance place to fit the tale. There are lots of such places. In most cities, I'd rule out the higher profile (police monitored) downtown clubs, but there are many other places which would work out nicely.
The key is for the owners and managers to tolerate, even enjoy, patron flashing. At a late hour, nobody is going to complain very long. Law enforcement only gets involved if there is complaints. If it were otherwise, things like jello wrestling, wet t-shirt contests, and the flashing fun done at places for Spring Break wouldn't work. Note that in most cities, patron stripping doesn't require a nude entertainment license - actual strip clubs allow naked staff as entertainers, but that requires its own license. And again, a club like that is a bit too obvious, and maybe easy, for Laura's plan. Plus Pete would be paying attention to the other naked bodies, not Laura's.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
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From: Iconoclast
Re: Laura, by Altan
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:04:10 GMT
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in
news:vaqe4mlkhl8p1b@news.supernews.com:
Since I'm the first out of the gate I don't have to worry about repeating. Yippee!
Overall I enjoyed this story, in particular the opening descriptions of the hotel room. I've been in that room, in all kinds of times and places, and the use of the language and description resonated within me. The language used helped to convey a real empathy with Laura and her thoughts, and there were few typos or grammatical errors, none of which disrupted or distracted from the flow of the story.
Another positive element was the setup of the situation. Altan took time to go into the background other than just implying that she was hot and horny and then getting right into it. Sometimes slower is better, and readers really so need a reason to keep reading other to get quickly into a sex scene.
I don't know if I have any suggestions for improvement, but I can explain some of the elements that distracted me from the story. The first distraction ocurred in the first page:
"At twenty-nine, watching her diet and working out regularly, she had nothing to be ashamed of. Five foot eleven and a slender figure, with long legs and a narrow waist. Her brown hair fell over her shoulders, almost covering her firm breasts. She had turned men's heads as long as she could remember."
There is nothing wrong with this description, but it brought me short. It set up warning bells in my head that this was another story about an ultra-vixen on the make. Would I prefer for her to be fat or plain or just downright ugly? Absolutely not, and yet this description put a road bump in my reading until I got past it.
More problematical to me was the last part of the story, where Laura goes from dreams of mild exposure, as in "Once they had dared each other to walk through the local mall in very skimpy clothes." and "Out in the open, she started to wonder how far she would really dare to go. It was a scary thought, exposing herself bit by bit. She could get arrested, and then what?" and the latter part where she turns to extreme exhibitionism by dancing naked in a bar and encouraging a three- way with two complete strangers. This genre filled with fantasy elements, and they are often necessary to the plot, yet in this case they went just too far. Maybe a bit more of a setup may help to suspend disbelief.
Overall I thought the story was a good one, but had problems with the continuity in the last half. Good job.
Iconoclast