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From: Katie McN
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 06:02:36 GMT
Hi Naive and "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com>,
On Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:29:50 -0400 I noticed your interesting post:
****************************************** Keiko By Naive, shattered_mind@hotmail.com
I'm glad to see you post something for the Fishtank, Naive. This can be the best teaching tool one could ever hope for if the input is received with the thought that people are trying to help out. I suspect this is something you'll do without any problem.
You have a natural writing ability and you story flows without many speed bumps to slow reading. You show a lot of skill now and I suspect you could really reach a high level if you're willing to work at your craft.
Here are two of the many things I liked about your story.
Presenting the reader with a contra-stereotype character is a great idea. Letting us know such a person is in the story early on is a good hook that forces the reader to want to know a lot more about this person and her exploits. Many writing teachers suggest starting a story with a hook and you do this with something that is consistent with the rest of the story. A good hook that fits with the rest of your story.
Your story gives us an interesting problem. You explore a relationship between a tall girl and a short boy. I'm 5' 9" and reached this height early in life. This meant I was taller than the boys my own age during middle and most of high school. I have a feel for your character's problem although not to her extreme. You get the reader interested with the appearance of a tall girl at the start and maintain reader interest with the tall girl/short boy problem. Very good job.
I have a couple of thoughts which I offer to help you improve your fiction writing technique. I plan on cheating by combining a few things into each point so don't tell Des or else I'll get my butt kicked.
You start the story with a bunch of narrative that goes on for six paragraphs before we see a single sentence of dialog followed by eleven paragraphs of narrative. Your story is pretty good so it doesn't drive the reader away, but it could be done better.
Consider not starting off by providing the reader with all the information he or she needs to understand what you're getting at. Instead, start the story at some later time where you can be in action right away. Trust the reader to be patient until you get around to explaining things or to know some things that you included in the narrative which won't be needed if you open in a different way.
I feel that narrative is useful for providing the reader with back ground once the reader is hooked by the story. It's also good for transitions between scenes. However, when you want to convey important information, it's best to do this in a scene. Instead of having your narrator tell us about how Keiko knocks out the football player, why not start the story with her doing it. Do it in a scene that gives her a chance to speak in a distinctive manner. This is high school so she should speak like a high school girl.
As you provide the reader with scenes, include some of the information you think the reader needs to know. The best way is to have a character do or say something that "gives away" the information. The reader feels like he or she is part of the process when you do this. You can also slip things in here and there without stopping the story with a recitation of facts.
Look at the other places where you use narrative and consider changing the more important things into scenes. Readers love this and it gives them a way to sort the important from the secondary.
Since this is a sex story, the readers know that as soon as they figure out who the main characters are, they know who will be getting it on near the end of the story. You are writing a standard hetero romance. In this type of story the author makes the reader suffer a wait as the two characters don't get it on. You have your babe essential trip the guy and beat him to the ground. Try to delay and add tension. Maybe she could "accidentally" rub her boob on him. Maybe she could make a little move and it would cause him to get a boner as it often does with people the age of your male character. The girl is not that experienced so she wouldn't be expected to just jump right in. If she decided to take the initiative which is fine, she would do it with tiny steps.
Once you get things going, consider doing things to cause the reader to wonder if they really are going to do it. Given the age of your characters and the fact that they are outside the "normal" size for high school students, it doesn't seem like that would have a lot or any experience. For one or both this is a first time story and the reader hopes to feel the emotions of the character. In this case you've made the guy the POV character so why not have him be a virgin and let the reader know how a virgin boy feel each step of the way. I'm not suggesting that you write a "this happened, this happened, this happened" story. I think you should think through the stages of this and give the reader the flavor of how these things happen. You also might have them stop and question where they are going. Maybe make it look like they are not going to do it after all or maybe over the course of things make it look like they could break up.
Once again, this is important stuff so do it with scenes. I got tired of listening to the narrator when I got to the good stuff. I want to see the action. You can also get rid of stuff where you tell the reader time went by. Just stick a blank line in the story and show us something that let's us know that time move forward.
Finally, the idea of being together fifteen years later has been done to death and you might consider dropping the whole thing in favor of scenes where we get to see these two finally do it. A prolog or epilog is often used by an author to "explain" things. The reader usually prefers to see important things handled in the story and the cliched movie ending where the later life actions of the characters is displayed in not much fun unless done in a parody like was done in Animal House and other films that make fun of film makers.
I hope you find my input useful. I love hearing from everyone even if I don't agree with them. Every point raised by someone suggests an area to look at in the story. No law that says you have to make a change, but it's good to review based on input and a lot of the time the input is really useful.
It's Me! Katie McN
<katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: meme misspelt
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:47:29 GMT
In article <v9mv5pril47j9f@news.supernews.com>, Desdmona <me@desdmona.com> wrote:
Note of apology: My apologies to Naive for getting this story posted late. Real life can sometimes get in the way of my fun.
The following is another first timer for the FishTank. The author is also new to erotic writing and says any thoughts are welcome on this story. It is a complete story at 4,144 words. FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
a. i thought the viewpoint character was really well-drawn. i spent some time as a punching-bag in school, and i think you nailed the self-esteem and negative expectation issues.
b. i thought it was very refreshingly un-cliched, and, um, pretty hot once it got going. i like long tease stories.
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
a. A few little spelling/grammar things. Their/there confusion and one "threw" for "through." nothing an editor couldn't fix up in no time.
b. i had a little trouble with the decision to get in Keiko's car. we all know we're reading a sex story, so it's been obvious to the reader that Kieko's interest is sexual (and i'm also a little confused as to why he's so very sure she's going to beat him up ...) - but i dunno, it strained my credibility. i could see it going two ways, maybe she could intimidate or even physically coerce him into the car, or maybe they could have a little conversation along the lines of:
"Aren't you going to hit me?" I asked.
Keiko giggled. "Why would I want to do that? I just thought we could go for a little ride together. DOn't you want to go for a ride with me?"
...which might make it even a bit more suprising when she does hit him, later. Or not. Just a thought.
- Meme Misspelt
- http://www.asstr.org/~meme_misspelt/
From: Bradley Stoke
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: 15 Apr 2003 10:54:31 -0700
Naive
This is an interesting story, especially for me, as it seems to involve two genres about which I know very little. In terms of sex content, I think it's 'F/Dom' (although I may be corrected here). It's not a fantasy I've ever had, and for me its very alien character makes the whole thing rather difficult to enjoy. But I've seen enough erotic illustrations on the subject to know that the notion of large women playing with submissive men (generally rather smaller ones) is a fantasy shared by many people. It was odd though that the dominant woman in this case had a Japanese name. All the Japanese women I've met have been remarkably demure and reserved. And, more often than not, rather short. Clearly, as Naive points out, this isn't true of all Japanese women.
The other genre this story represents is the very popular one of teenage boy sexual awakening. There's probably some nifty short term for it, like 'teen boy lit' or whatever, but it certainly deserves one. Nick Scipio, Rev Cotton Mather and others have all been remarkably popular authors of this genre, and a glance at the top twenty stories on Stories OnLine confirm that this is the genre that attracts the most votes. Whether from men or women I don't know. I've not read much of the stuff, but your story conforms to the genre. It's written in first person, uses contemporary (or slightly dated) American vernacular, set in some place where girls can meet boys, and where the boys seem rather gauche and the girls sometimes refreshingly bold. Maybe the appeal of this fiction is because that's what it's like for many American boys. I don't know. But many other male authors, like Mat Twassel and Smilodon have also worked with this genre, so I guess its time has come.
There were a few typos in the story ("theirs"!), but not a lot. From what little I've read of these tales of teen boy first-time encounters, there seemed to be rather a lot of shared themes (like boys doing karate and having embarrassing parents), but maybe that's not so indicative of derivativeness as of how it just is in those funny high schools in the States with flags outside and teachers who carry glove puppets called Mr. Hat into the classroom.
The story did its job well. It was efficient and may even be erotic for its intended audience. I thought the epilogue was unnecessary, but I appreciate that after an author has got to know his/her characters so well, there's a sense you don't just want to leave them dangling.
Very well done! And brave, too, to submit a story whose subject of sexual fantasy is unlikely to appeal to more than a small proportion of the readers of the Fish Tank!
Bradley Stoke
http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke
From: Katie McN
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:10:27 GMT
Hi bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley Stoke),
On 15 Apr 2003 10:54:31 -0700 I noticed your interesting post:
[ ... ]
Very well done! And brave, too, to submit a story whose subject of sexual fantasy is unlikely to appeal to more than a small proportion of the readers of the Fish Tank!
Hehehehe. Bradley, I love it when pontificate based on yourself as the complete reference set. F/dom is one of the popular categories and so is First Time stories. I hope Naive reads this before he slashes his wrists thinking there are no readers for his favorite type of stories. ;-)
It's Me! Katie McN
<katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: Garylian
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:48:33 -0500
Desdmona wrote:
Note of apology: My apologies to Naive for getting this story posted late. Real life can sometimes get in the way of my fun.
The following is another first timer for the FishTank. The author is also new to erotic writing and says any thoughts are welcome on this story. It is a complete story at 4,144 words. FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
Complete guidelines can be found at:
http://www.asstr.org/~Desdmona/FishTank/base/storyguide.html
Suggestions? Comments? Submissions? Direct them to me@desdmona.com or Desdmona22@aol.com
****************************************** Keiko By Naive, shattered_mind@hotmail.com
Naive,
This is my first crack at the Fish Tank, so I hope this is properly done. It has been a long time since I reviewed anything other than computer games, and a few books on Amazon, so I am rusty.
As a point of reference for my "review", I can be a stickler for details that don't ring true, or make me question things. Those questions often distract me from enjoyment of a story. I just yesterday put down a novel, because after feeling frustrated by the author's jumping around, I lost my patience with the story when the author described that a prescription was written for "Valium Capsules". Valium only comes as a tablet or an injectable. While there were other irritants that already had be close to putting the book down, having a "pharmacist" in the story make that comment was the last straw, because no pharmacist would make that mistake.
I am not much into Femdom stories as a general rule, but it isn't a squick, so I looked at this with a more clinical eye.
Positives:
1) I found this an interesting tale of a young man's first time, especially since it was in a "out of the norm" situation for me. Davey was unsure enough of himself just enough to make his reactions more believable. Having Keiko be just as unknowing about sex (being a virgin) was also unexpected. Usually the woman is hardened and experienced, but Keiko wasn't.
2) The sex wasn't the normal "overly descriptive" type that is more common in a sex story. It was more subtle, which is a nice change of pace from the sometimes gynecological direction often taken. Also, you didn't draw the different sexual play between Keiko and Davey for the 2 weeks, but let the reader move forward to what was important; their final consummation. Well done.
Constructive Criticisms:
1) In your very first paragraph, you mention that Keiko studied "karate". Later, you mention Davey studied "Aikido" (Btw, both are proper nouns, and should be capitalized.) The assumption that because Keiko is larger, she would be able to crush Davey isn't given any justification. As someone who has studied one of the martial arts in the past (Tae Kwon Do), I can tell you that size is immaterial. Proficiency in your discipline, and their proficiency in theirs, is.
If Keiko was explained to be a Black Belt, and Davey was explained to have just started to study, that would make sense. If Davey felt that those who studied the Karate discipline had an advantage over those that studied Aikido, that would also work, though you open yourself up to an "expert" who feels differently in that scenario.. I was left with a curiosity as to why Davey made that assumption, because to me that assumption rang false without more information. To my stickler type view, this was a distraction.
You may wish to leave Davey's having studied Aikido out of the story. That fact doesn't add anything to his character as a whole, and leaves you with having to possibly explain things to a nitwit like myself, or someone that feels you have slighted one discipline over another, etc.
2) I felt some paragraphs didn't feel as if their served their purpose to the best of your intention. Here is one that left me feeling most off:
Me, my parents, and my little sister live in a small place: two bedrooms. I know one thing Terra, my sister, is going to love it when she gets our room all to herself. Luckily, with my scholarship we don't have to pay for my college, because if we had to, theirs no way we could've afforded it.
I felt this paragraph was designed to explain to the reader what kind of economic/social background Davey came from as opposed to Keiko, so you could bridge the gap between the two character's lifestyles. While it served its purpose, I felt it was not done in a way that made the story flow smoothly. What does his sister's wanting of their room all to herself have anything to do with the telling of this tale? That one sentence, to me, was out of the story's context. If you leave that sentence out, it has a bit of a better flow. I felt you could have tied this information into the paragraph above it in the story with one sentence, and made it flow better.
After describing Keiko's house, adding something along the lines of "Compared to the two bedroom house I shared with my parents and sister, this house was huge." This would have conveyed the differences in their social status/living arrangements more effectively, imo.
Working in the need for Davey's scholarship in order to afford college to show further difference in their economic status could just as easily be handled at his being in awe of her driving a BMW when neither he nor his family could afford for him to have a vehicle of any sort. This would again allow you to tie this information into another paragraph where it makes better sense.
All in all, I felt it was an interesting read for me. And all I said can be taken with a grain of salt! Like I said, I am new to the Fish Tank process, so I hope you find my comments constructive.
And I hope to hear some comments from regular FT folks as to how they felt I did in giving a review.
Garylian
From: Elena
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:39:46 +0100
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:v9mv5pril47j9f@news.supernews.com ...
Keiko
By Naive, shattered_mind@hotmail.com
This was interesting. Davey's cocktail of emotions throughout their encounters were very vividly described. It was almost as if you could see his mind wobbling between fear, uncertainty, lust ... The only big flaw in my opinion is that whilst Davey's thought processes are so clearl, Keiko's remain opaque. I would have liked some incidental detail, some more conversation, so that I could have got to know her as a person and not just as a fantasy figure.
I liked the final sex scene. The use of a condom worked for me; I know that some people don't like them in fantasy writing, feeling that it spoils the mood, but for me it added a touch of realism that made it easier to enter the scene in my imagination.
The tacked-on and-we-all-lived-happily-ever-after epilogue is redundant. A real anticlimax, if I may say so. That said, the rest of the story's hot enough when it needs to be.
- Elena
From: john
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: 16 Apr 2003 20:03:15 -0700
So as not to belabour my bias against rape (of either gender by anyone), I'll focus on the story's plot and leave the theme to others. In most comic stories, that is stories that end in a union of the protagonists, impediments are overcome that make the reader rejoice along with the happy couple. The impediments seem to be Davey's insecurity about his size and Davey's apprehension about Keiko's strength. Either would make a good tale. It's very positive that they are present. Other possible obstacles (were they overlooked or discarded?) do spring to mind: (1)a female Godzilla just might feel some insecurity herself, especially in relation to dating, (2) peers and parents might be non-supportive. The former might be useful in explaining Keiko's non-traditional concept of courtship. The latter, especially Davey's victory over such opposition might allow him to be more equal in the partnership. It's clear in the end that both partners do freely chose each other. That may not be important to the sex as it's presented, but it is important in a comedy if the reader is to share in the bliss of the union. This piece feels to me much more like a story than a "toy." It is highly readable. Characters are drawn. Events happen. Motives are ascribed. Any or all of these are expendable in something designed only to effect an orgasm. I feel, this story would please the brain more, however, if Keiko had more motive and Davey had a little more backbone.
Thank you, Naive. This intrigued me greatly. It also entertained. One of the great pleasures of looking at a fish tank is finding a species one might avoid in the wild.
John
From: john
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: 16 Apr 2003 21:47:22 -0700
My friend john has encouraged me to partake at the feast of writing in the fish tank so I have been swimming round enjoying stories, some very heart felt, some very fun, erotic and stimulating indeed. I was disturbed by Naive's very, very naive and confused view of Dom and Sub lifestyle as well as his naiveté regarding forcible, violent acts of sex. First I must agree with Bradley's comment on the character of Keiko. She really seems to be just a part of the story thrown in as a catalyst for a teenage boy's fantasy of being dominated. The occasional Dom /Sub fantasy has nothing to do with the blatant theme of fear presented almost immediately and throughout the story. I felt myself becoming completely nauseated as the author described his terror of being forcibly taken against his will. Turn this story around and exchange characters. Lets pretend Davey is the huge high school guy who has somehow coerced a small unpopular girl into his car. Would it then be an interesting story? This type of story only serves to perpetuate the myth that rape victims were "asking for it", that they "enjoyed it" and that they eventually could even begin to fall in love with their abusers.
I really wonder if the author has ever asked or discussed with a victim of violent rape whether her attacker suddenly aroused her. The fact that he becomes aroused by this abusive treatment is a case of the author not having a clue what it is like to be forcibly victimized. I know, I know, most of you will say," It's only a story." It's only a fantasy." And, "There was no actual intercourse at first." Any one who is knowledgeable about BDSM will explain that both Dom and Sub interact in a mutually understood, respectful manner. There is NO forced victimization. I feel there is no need to comment on the utterly ridiculous ending to the story.
As far as positive comments, well, hmmm ... 1. You have a nice flow to your writing. 2. You definitely have caused me to sit up and pay attention
Sheesh (mordenrose@hotNOSPAMmail.com)
Note: Google is being google and after many attempts to post this herself, Sheesh asked me to post it for her. More than happy to do that. More than happy.
John.
From: RodR
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: 17 Apr 2003 08:12:06 -0700
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:<v9mv5pril47j9f@news.supernews.com> ...
a complete story at 4,144 words. FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
****************************************** Keiko By Naive, shattered_mind@hotmail.com
<<<snipped story>>>>
Naive
Naive,
This is my first swim in the fishtank myself. As the "target audience" I thought this would be a good time to jump in. Forgive me if I repeat what others have said.
Good stuff:
I liked Davey's character, as a smaller than average person I was able to identify with him. His description of the walk from the school to the parking lot could be taken from anyone who had ever been whipped by the school bully.
The bedroom/bath scenes were first rate and well worth the wait. Keiko can come over and give me a bath anytime.
Improvements:
Some of the story felt forced, like you had the good parts written and were under a deadline to get the story finished. Another five hundred words to detail the locker and parking lot scenes would have helped.
Keiko is still a bit of a mystery to me. If Davey and Keiko have been together for so long he would have found out by now why she kicked Hal's ass and what her motivation was for being attracted to him. (Personally I think she knocked Hal out because he was picking on Davey. Did Hal ever bother him after that?)
All in all a good read. A few hundred extra words detailing how Keiko came to like him and some less detail on his home life would help.
Rod
(rod_ramsey@yahoo.com)
P.S. Why is it that the Dom is always rich and the sub is poor? I'm gonna have to work on a story that has the Dom living in a dingy two room apartment.
From: Katie McN
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:07:17 GMT
Hi rod_ramsey@yahoo.com (RodR),
On 17 Apr 2003 08:12:06 -0700 I noticed your interesting post:
[ ... ]
P.S. Why is it that the Dom is always rich and the sub is poor? I'm gonna have to work on a story that has the Dom living in a dingy two room apartment.
I think you're on to something here and look forward to the story. Make sure the money the sub has is inherited or gained in a way that doesn't make it look like the person is in anyway powerful. I can see all sorts of possibilities as control of the sub is developed and wealth transfers and the sub gets a taste of poverty. Hmmm.
It's Me! Katie McN
<katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: Elena
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:19:51 +0100
"Katie McN" <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com> wrote in message news:cjnt9vcjvth2vf3dnuj12t4uet6ptlqec3@4ax.com ...
I think you're on to something here and look forward to the story. Make sure the money the sub has is inherited or gained in a way that doesn't make it look like the person is in anyway powerful. I can see all sorts of possibilities as control of the sub is developed and wealth transfers and the sub gets a taste of poverty. Hmmm.
Oooh! I wanna write that one! I call dibs on the title "Lottery Slut!"
From: Katie McN
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:03:23 GMT
Hi "Elena" <thefabulouselena@yahoo.co.uk>,
On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:19:51 +0100 I noticed your interesting post:
"Katie McN" <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com> wrote in message news:cjnt9vcjvth2vf3dnuj12t4uet6ptlqec3@4ax.com ...
I think you're on to something here and look forward to the story. Make sure the money the sub has is inherited or gained in a way that doesn't make it look like the person is in anyway powerful. I can see all sorts of possibilities as control of the sub is developed and wealth transfers and the sub gets a taste of poverty. Hmmm.
Oooh! I wanna write that one! I call dibs on the title "Lottery Slut!"
Omg I'm begriming to see the story myself so you better get your butt in gear. Maybe you could submit the result to the Fishtank which would be rather appropo.
It's Me! Katie McN
<katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: RodR
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: 18 Apr 2003 08:04:44 -0700
"Elena" <thefabulouselena@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<fjBna.456$5i5.396@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net> ...
"Katie McN" <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com> wrote in message news:cjnt9vcjvth2vf3dnuj12t4uet6ptlqec3@4ax.com ...
I think you're on to something here and look forward to the story. Make sure the money the sub has is inherited or gained in a way that doesn't make it look like the person is in anyway powerful. I can see all sorts of possibilities as control of the sub is developed and wealth transfers and the sub gets a taste of poverty. Hmmm.
Oooh! I wanna write that one! I call dibs on the title "Lottery Slut!"
Hey Elena,
I thought about that myself. The only problem is that the sub is still poor at heart. Maybe the daughter or son of a lottery winner who has grown acustomed to the finer things?
Good luck,
Rod
rod_ramsey@yahoo.com
From: Elena
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:46:44 +0100
"RodR" <rod_ramsey@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:7b47a54.0304180704.33dc41a7@posting.google.com ...
"Elena" <thefabulouselena@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<fjBna.456$5i5.396@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net> ...
Oooh! I wanna write that one! I call dibs on the title "Lottery Slut!"
Okay, you can have the title "Lottery Slut" back - in the end I called it "Lottery Winner" instead. It's been a while since I wrote anything so the story construction's probably pretty crude, but I did manage to put a lot of shagging into it.
Like most stories, I found that I didn't end up writing the tale I'd started out imagining. Anyway, it'll show up on ASSM in a wee bit.
Hey Elena,
I thought about that myself. The only problem is that the sub is still poor at heart. Maybe the daughter or son of a lottery winner who has grown acustomed to the finer things?
I don't know - I think a person can grow accustomed to the finer things pretty quickly. Think about how quickly celebrities with poor upbringings can turn into prima donnas and brats!
- Elena
From: Altan
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:26:07 GMT
On Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:29:50 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote:
****************************************** Keiko By Naive, shattered_mind@hotmail.com
Hi Naive,
Thank you very much for this story. I enjoyed reading it.
Positives:
1. I liked the epilogue. I don't think this is a repetition; I believe people said before they didn't like it :-). When I started reading the epilogue, I thought, what't the point of this, but then came the "and they lived happily ever after" part and I was sold.
2. [coming up with repetitions only ...] I liked the thawing that took place in Davey, as Keiko drove him to her house and showed him around. To me, the showing around the house expressed that she wanted him to relax, to feel at ease. The spanking that followed did not give me the feeling of abuse at all. I don't know why not, normally I don't care for stories of people hurting eachother, but the way this one was set up made me feel it was NOT about rape and all that. One of the comments earlier in this thread was, if this was a story about a big boy and a little girl, how would that feel. I wouldn't have continued reading in that case. Somehow, at least to me, this story didn't feel like that, and if that is what you intended, you succeeded.
Suggestions for improvements:
Others have mentioned the typos; I've emailed you the ones that I noticed. Apart from those, I felt the story didn't always flow very well. Reading it aloud to yourself has been suggested in the past; I think it might help in this case.
When Keiko came back in a red bikini I have to say I was a bit disappointed. Of course she noticed this and gave me a knowing smile. Luckily, that did help drop the pressure a notch though.
The last sentence in this fragment is an example of what I mean. Although not wrong, it just doesn't flow. I would consider something more like
When Keiko came back in a red bikini, I was disappointed. She noticed the effect and gave me a knowing smile. At least the pressure had dropped a notch.
There were a number of such situations where my reading kind of halted, in this otherwise very well written piece.
Again, thanks for sharing. I enjoyed reading this story.
A.
http://www.asstr.org/~altan/
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: 19 Apr 2003 02:24:21 GMT
What works:
1. Davey's insecurity and character come through. Keiko almost. I think it's important that you keep her somewhat mysterious at least through the first part of the story.
2. I like the essense of the early plot: For some reason Davey expects to get bashed by Keiko. We know (is it just because it's a sex story?) she's got the hots for him. And then he does get bashed. Neat flip. That there's a treat for him after (and in) the bashing is another nice touch.
Suggestions:
1. The first time I read this I lost interest after the spanking. Everything after that seemed somewhat superfluous. I liked the overall story more upon a second reading, but I think the end is too soft and scant. I want to see Davey and Keiko really come to grips with each other (and themselves), and you skim this to get to the sex. This is a story in which it makes sense that the characters can really grow. But we need to see more of it. Take your time. Give us everything. As it is, I don't believe those vital middle days. Who knows, this might need to be a novel.
2. Fix the many many basic writing errors which impair readability.
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Tesseract
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: 18 Apr 2003 21:21:12 -0700
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:<v9mv5pril47j9f@news.supernews.com> ...
Keiko
By Naive, shattered_mind@hotmail.com
I liked your opening, simple but getting the reader to ask why, to need to know more.
I liked your story and I could identify with Davey even though, at six one, I am not short. I was also on the football team but still a shy introvert and the girls were not chasing me. Someone wondered at the popularity of the fantasy you wove here. I thought it was obvious - us shy types would love to have a girl chase after us and take charge of our sex lives. I'm sure it's a common high school fantasy.
The bathtub scene was a bit confusing. I understand a pair of handcuffs to be two braceletsheld together by a short chain. Attaching the cuffs to the rail I understand to be attaching the braclet to the rail. Do it twice and both bracelets are used. What is Davey attached to?
You could give some motive for the bondage. She is bigger and stronger than he is so she doesn't need to cuff hin for her safety.
She also needs to explain why they were always using her brother's room, not hers. Maybe there is a deep, dark secret here that could be another story.
Others mentioned the there/their/they're stuff.
This is a pet peeve:
Me, my parents, and my little sister live in a small place ...
This should be
I, my parents, and my little sister live in a small place ... or even better
My parents, my little sister and I live in a small place ...
You have a very incomplete sentence here.
By the way my name is Davey Haleren.
If you restate it like this
Because of the way my name is Davey Haleren. you might more easily see how incomplete it is.
The epilogue ties up some loose ends that some readers and, mostly, the author, has but doesn't do anything for the story. Maybe change it into another chpater or two.
Tesseract
From: Elena
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 10:50:08 +0100
"Tesseract" <HyperTesseract@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:e59c15bf.0304182021.58f6354e@posting.google.com ...
This is a pet peeve:
Me, my parents, and my little sister live in a small place ... This should be I, my parents, and my little sister live in a small place ... or even better My parents, my little sister and I live in a small place ...
Now, see, I take the other stance on this one. If a story is told in the first person, then I can let the writer away with some poor grammar in the name of colloquialism. A first-person story should read the way the narrator speaks, and lots of people would say "Me, my parents, and my little sister ..." So, it may be wrong, but it is authentic to the voice of the tale.
From: Elena
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 11:01:01 +0100
"Tesseract" <HyperTesseract@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:e59c15bf.0304182021.58f6354e@posting.google.com ...
The bathtub scene was a bit confusing. I understand a pair of handcuffs to be two braceletsheld together by a short chain. Attaching the cuffs to the rail I understand to be attaching the braclet to the rail. Do it twice and both bracelets are used. What is Davey attached to?
This is a good point, and one I wish I'd noticed. People who really like bondage can get a bit obsessive and technical over the details. So, it should have read, " Keiko pulled two pairs of handcuffs from behind her back ..."
Mind you, it's perfectly possible to cuff someone to a rail by both hands using just one pair of police-type metal handcuffs; you loop the chain around the rail and put a wrist in each bracelet. Ah, happy memories .... except I prefer leather cuffs. Not very practical in a jacuzzi though.
From: Tesseract
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: 19 Apr 2003 06:49:33 -0700
"Elena" <thefabulouselena@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<O39oa.172$%21.23@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net> ...
"Tesseract" <HyperTesseract@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:e59c15bf.0304182021.58f6354e@posting.google.com ...
The bathtub scene was a bit confusing. I understand a pair of handcuffs to be two braceletsheld together by a short chain. Attaching the cuffs to the rail I understand to be attaching the braclet to the rail. Do it twice and both bracelets are used. What is Davey attached to?
This is a good point, and one I wish I'd noticed. People who really like bondage can get a bit obsessive and technical over the details. So, it should have read, " Keiko pulled two pairs of handcuffs from behind her back ..."
I'm not really into bondage, but I do notice details and continuity errors stand out so much.
Mind you, it's perfectly possible to cuff someone to a rail by both hands using just one pair of police-type metal handcuffs; you loop the chain around the rail and put a wrist in each bracelet. Ah, happy memories .... except I prefer leather cuffs. Not very practical in a jacuzzi though.
True, but that's not what he wrote.
Tesseract
From: Elena
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 16:05:10 +0100
"Tesseract" <HyperTesseract@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:e59c15bf.0304190549.5a616aa2@posting.google.com ...
"Elena" <thefabulouselena@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<O39oa.172$%21.23@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net> ...
Mind you, it's perfectly possible to cuff someone to a rail by both hands using just one pair of police-type metal handcuffs; you loop the chain around the rail and put a wrist in each bracelet. Ah, happy memories .... except I prefer leather cuffs. Not very practical in a jacuzzi though.
True, but that's not what he wrote.
Yes, I know. Do bear with me, I get carried away sometimes.
:-)
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 09:45:54 -0500
On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 11:01:01 +0100, "Elena" <thefabulouselena@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
"Tesseract" <HyperTesseract@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:e59c15bf.0304182021.58f6354e@posting.google.com ...
The bathtub scene was a bit confusing. I understand a pair of handcuffs to be two braceletsheld together by a short chain. Attaching the cuffs to the rail I understand to be attaching the braclet to the rail. Do it twice and both bracelets are used. What is Davey attached to?
This is a good point, and one I wish I'd noticed. People who really like bondage can get a bit obsessive and technical over the details. So, it should have read, " Keiko pulled two pairs of handcuffs from behind her back ..."
She mentioned a 2nd pair being put on. It was a bit confusing. It didn't put me off, though, because however it was being done, the results were clear.
Still, it sounded to me like she used two sets, not one.
Mind you, it's perfectly possible to cuff someone to a rail by both hands using just one pair of police-type metal handcuffs; you loop the chain around the rail and put a wrist in each bracelet. Ah, happy memories .... except I prefer leather cuffs. Not very practical in a jacuzzi though.
Plastic works better in water than leather. Metal works everywhere, but the hard edges are less comfy. The metal ones with rubberish coats, those aren't so bad.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Naive
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 06:23:23 GMT
Hello All,
Just wanted to say thanks to all the people that wrote and reviewed my story "Keiko". I know that the material may squick some but for those that pushed through I appreciate it.
Thanks Shon, the first to review me. I agreed with your statement that Keiko is too vague. She does need more to add her into the story. More info so the reader can get to know her.
Katie, thanks, eloquent as ever =). You had a good point on my lack of action in the beginning. I've decided that when I rewrite I will add in the fight scene so we can see Keiko in action. Also, the female perspective is nice, since I would have never thought of the whole little touches and pressing up against Davey without it. This also can help me allude to the eventual sex, and since Keiko is so much bigger, I can use Davey's misperception to show why he thinks she's out to get him.
Meme Misspelt mentioned the need for a better explanation of some of the characters motivation. I appreciate knowing that I didn't make these clear. I'll try harder to get it through in the rewrite.
And I'm very glad that Bradley Stoke decided to review me, because he has such a unique and insightful perspective. I will probably take your opinion on the epilog and rid the story of it. Don't worry I won't open my wrists over your comments ;).
Garylian glad that you decided to participate in the Fish Tank, and I thought that your viewpoint was quite adept. As a practitioner of multiple Martial Arts myself I may have thrown in a little bias that I didn't notice. I'll rework that. You said that some of the paragraphs were a bit off too and I can see your point. I'll try to smooth them out a bit.
Elena, your opinion helped reinforce what some of the others said and help me decided on some of the changes I needed. Thanks.
Thanks to John for putting aside your bias and reading my work. I like the way you picked out some of things that needed more explanation and pointed out some twists that could fit nicely into the next version.
Sheesh, though I didn't appreciate the attack on myself, I do appreciate your participation. It helped me look at my work from a different perspective. Even if it's one I don't agree with.
And to tell you the truth Rod, it is an uncompleted work. I got stuck and needed a broader view than just my own. And I'm glad that you picked out my implied reason for Keiko's fight. Perceptive.
Altan, I've already sent a thanks for the list of typos, just wanted to say thanks again anyway. Not having an editor is a bit of a problem. On the epilog, sorry, but I think it's a goner. I think I'll have to take Tesseract's suggestion and add a little more to it and integrate it instead of just hacking it onto the end. And, I'll just add my thanks to Tesseract here since I mentioned him - thanks.
Also, thanks to Mat Twassel for his statements. I'll agree rereading it made me see that the end does need more work, and that their's a lot more interaction yet to happen. Thanks.
For all the encouragement and positive feedback I thank you all. And to those that mentioned and pointed out the grammar errors I'm thrilled to get that kind of info since my grammar sucks and can use all the help it can get =).
To those yet to review me don't worry I'm still working on how to rewrite "Keiko" so your comments won't be wasted. Thanks ahead of time.
Later
Naive
~ Sometimes to look into the eyes of a stranger is to see yourself looking back. - Naive ~
http://www.asstr.org/~naive/
From: Katie McN
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:11:16 GMT
Hi Nave!
Shattered_Mind@nospam.hotmail.com (Naive),
On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 06:23:23 GMT I noticed your interesting post:
Hello All,
[ ... ]
Katie, thanks, eloquent as ever =). You had a good point on my lack of action in the beginning. I've decided that when I rewrite I will add in the fight scene so we can see Keiko in action. Also, the female perspective is nice, since I would have never thought of the whole little touches and pressing up against Davey without it. This also can help me allude to the eventual sex, and since Keiko is so much bigger, I can use Davey's misperception to show why he thinks she's out to get him.
I'm glad you found my input useful and that you're going to use some of my ideas. I also appreciate you taking the time to acknowledge the work everyone did commenting on your story. It's the only reward we get. ;-)
It's Me! Katie McN
<katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 09:45:30 -0500
On Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:29:50 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote:
Not repeating might be tricky, but I'll try.
Davey is pretty good, the POV character really shows you what he is into. Mostly, that is. We get to see a lot of him, but not every intimate thought.
In the beginning, he notices Keiko paying attention to him. While the fear reaction makes some sense, if Keiko has a rep - should it be mentioned? - for beating up boys. But then, he mentions noticing her when she beat up Hal.
Noticed, how? Like a hero? Like a sexy superhero sort of girl?
He doesn't say that. But it seems to me that if Keiko is paying attention to him, it is only natural that his attention be on more than just muscles and fists. He did mention her body some, but not his reaction to it.
He even looked right at her chest, noticed it was well-endowed, but failed to mention anything about his reaction to that view.
Now, maybe he just had not a single thought about the girl as a girl, no sexual reaction at all. But to me, it would make sense if he did, and was perhaps embarrassed by it but unable to avoid it.
Likewise, that helps answer the question about why Keiko was after him. Now, I can see the tough girl raping her boy. Both sexes can have a hard time communicating what they want and feel. Still, maybe she could have said something, rather than let him worry. Something simple like "I like you," right before locking him up in the shower, say.
They fell in love in the end. But we don't quite get to see how that happened. They had nice sex, for sure. But from the POV of a teen boy, being pushed around by a girl, even with sex as a reward, isn't exactly the way to gain love - unless you're a naturally submissive sort of boy I suppose. I don't get that impression of Davey, despite his size, which makes the final outcome confusing.
Certainly, wouldn't two weeks under her thumb (and body) be a time of great conflict, not just pleasure? If he was getting into it, I'd think that he might say more about it, or react to the final night with a bit more overt emotion about the situation.
Keiko, though, as a figure of mystery - she doesn't explain much of what she does, she just does it - is intriguing. She is commanding, dominant physically and emotionally. While Davey never explicitly mentions finding that special, the ending suggests that he really enjoys that situation. Not all boys would.
The story, as it is, is fine as a fantasy. But the missing bits hurt its verisimilitude. I can imagine them to fill in the blanks, and maybe that is OK. But without it, it gets harder to see it as a story of real quirky people interacting.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Shon Richards
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:05:09 GMT
"RodR" <rod_ramsey@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:7b47a54.0304170712.548cdbce@posting.google.com ...
P.S. Why is it that the Dom is always rich and the sub is poor? I'm gonna have to work on a story that has the Dom living in a dingy two room apartment.
I have five chapters sitting in my hopper about a very poor dom. There is other things going on but the main things is that the dom is poor. I thought "Where is the poor dom and what is his story?"
I stopped writing the story when it came across like a cooking show. The poor dom would do something creative with his sub and I would give these long explanations about how he made the restraints by hand, or what common household items could double as toys. I'm sure other people might find it entertaining but to me it was feeling like a textbook. Actually the idea of a dom hot-to show appealled to me more than the story.
Another problem may be that money enables more and more elaborate games. I'm not sure there's too many subs who dream of being in a playground provided by the dollar store. As writers we have unlimited budgets and I think most writers want to take advantage of that. Having said that, I usually skip a story as soon as I see the mansion. Been there, done that.
I think class differences is an untapped storyline with domination. There's a lot of nonconsensual stories where poor man blackmails rich gal, but few stories where rich gal gets a poor dom. If it worked for Lady Chatterly, why not try it again?
Shon Richards
A good portion of my stories can be found at my never-finished website at
http://www.asstr.org/~ShonRichards/
All of them can be found through ftp at
http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/ShonRichards/
From: RodR
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: 18 Apr 2003 07:57:52 -0700
"Shon" <shonrichardshsd@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<99Bna.27501$ey1.2494817@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> ...
"RodR" <rod_ramsey@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:7b47a54.0304170712.548cdbce@posting.google.com ... P.S. Why is it that the Dom is always rich and the sub is poor? I'm gonna have to work on a story that has the Dom living in a dingy two room apartment.
I have five chapters sitting in my hopper about a very poor dom. There is other things going on but the main things is that the dom is poor. I thought "Where is the poor dom and what is his story?"
Put them up on your webpage or send me a couple of chapters, I'll let you know how I liked them.
I stopped writing the story when it came across like a cooking show.
Hey I like cooking shows :-)
The
poor dom would do something creative with his sub and I would give these long explanations about how he made the restraints by hand, or what common household items could double as toys. I'm sure other people might find it entertaining but to me it was feeling like a textbook. Actually the idea of a dom hot-to show appealled to me more than the story.
Another problem may be that money enables more and more elaborate games. I'm not sure there's too many subs who dream of being in a playground provided by the dollar store. As writers we have unlimited budgets and I think most writers want to take advantage of that.
Rope and clothespins are cheap. So are willow switches and a paddle can be made easily from a discarded pallet slat.
Having said that, I
usually skip a story as soon as I see the mansion. Been there, done that.
I'll keep that in mind. With the exception of Michael in my first story, most of my characters have been middle or upper middle class.
I think class differences is an untapped storyline with domination. There's a lot of nonconsensual stories where poor man blackmails rich gal, but few stories where rich gal gets a poor dom.
The question is how can the poor dom entice the rich sub into a spartan lifestyle without blackmail and without making the sub too spineless.
If it worked for Lady
Chatterly, why not try it again?
Rod
rod_ramsey@yahoo.com
From: Kenny N Gamera
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 13:59:48 -0400
On 18 Apr 2003 07:57:52 -0700, rod_ramsey@yahoo.com (RodR) wrote:
The question is how can the poor dom entice the rich sub into a spartan lifestyle without blackmail and without making the sub too spineless.
You used the word right there: spartan lifestyle. Spartan implies a certain amount of choice. There is a small movement towards developing simpler lifestyles, because of the stress and work involved in maintaining it. I have read that subs often seek a relationship with a dom to reduce the stress on them: the choices and worrying are made by someone else and they are free to do and feel.
So the dom is poor but happy poor. She does want or expect much in terms of pocessions or wealth. Over the course of the relationship, she teaches the sub the value of the simple things and the hardships of wealth (yeah right). So the how-to-cooking lessons become philosophy lessons as well, where the dom explains that the money spent on equipment is wasted and that the simple homemade stuff is better.
Thank You and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
turtlemeat69@hotmail.com
From: Katie McN
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:12:30 GMT
Hi Kenny N Gamera <turtlemeat69@hotmail.com>,
On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 13:59:48 -0400 I noticed your interesting post:
On 18 Apr 2003 07:57:52 -0700, rod_ramsey@yahoo.com (RodR) wrote:
The question is how can the poor dom entice the rich sub into a spartan lifestyle without blackmail and without making the sub too spineless.
You used the word right there: spartan lifestyle. Spartan implies a certain amount of choice.
... or, a possible mistake a person could make by going to Michigan State instead of the University of Texas. (Hook 'em horns)
There is a small movement towards
developing simpler lifestyles, because of the stress and work involved in maintaining it. I have read that subs often seek a relationship with a dom to reduce the stress on them: the choices and worrying are made by someone else and they are free to do and feel.
Exactly. Plus, there is all the fun interaction they get when humiliated in front of large groups of people. Nothing like making a girl take her clothes off at a big party where the rest of the women then fondle and examine her intimate places until she gets very aroused. Having her finish herself off to the cheers and cat calls of the group is also a kick in the butt. I'm sure the girl loved every second of it. I know the other girls did.
So the dom is poor but happy poor. She does want or expect much in terms of pocessions or wealth. Over the course of the relationship, she teaches the sub the value of the simple things and the hardships of wealth (yeah right). So the how-to-cooking lessons become philosophy lessons as well, where the dom explains that the money spent on equipment is wasted and that the simple homemade stuff is better.
You forgot wardrobe. Dressing up in the maid's outfit with appropriate underwear, garter belt, seamed silk stockings and five inch stack shoes is a big plus. Then having her see what it's like to use a feather duster where she has to bend over a lot without bending her knees is fun for everyone.
It's Me! Katie McN
<katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: Kenny N Gamera
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:26:15 -0400
On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:12:30 GMT, Katie McN <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com> wrote in answer to my post:
You used the word right there: spartan lifestyle. Spartan implies a certain amount of choice.
... or, a possible mistake a person could make by going to Michigan State instead of the University of Texas. (Hook 'em horns)
Well, at the time I started here I had a big interest in alcohol which I was able to nurture. While District Court 54B thought that I should suspend my studies in this direction, I was already in the middle of a thesis and this really great project fell into my lap for my disertation.
Mind you, I couldn't care less about Michigan State Riot, because I will always be a Grand Valley State University Laker at heart.
Thank You and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
turtlemeat69@hotmail.com
From: Katie McN
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:00:56 GMT
Hi Kenny N Gamera <turtlemeat69@hotmail.com>,
On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:26:15 -0400 I noticed your interesting post:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:12:30 GMT, Katie McN <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com> wrote in answer to my post:
You used the word right there: spartan lifestyle. Spartan implies a certain amount of choice.
... or, a possible mistake a person could make by going to Michigan State instead of the University of Texas. (Hook 'em horns)
Well, at the time I started here I had a big interest in alcohol which I was able to nurture. While District Court 54B thought that I should suspend my studies in this direction, I was already in the middle of a thesis and this really great project fell into my lap for my disertation.
Mind you, I couldn't care less about Michigan State Riot, because I will always be a Grand Valley State University Laker at heart.
GVSU had a pretty good basketball team. I think Shaq and Kobe will take them to the top again this year.
It's Me! Katie McN
<katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: oldfang
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: 18 Apr 2003 23:22:03 GMT
Katie McN <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com> wrote:
Hi Kenny N Gamera <turtlemeat69@hotmail.com>,
On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:26:15 -0400 I noticed your interesting post:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:12:30 GMT, Katie McN <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com> wrote in answer to my post:
You used the word right there: spartan lifestyle. Spartan implies a certain amount of choice.
... or, a possible mistake a person could make by going to Michigan State instead of the University of Texas. (Hook 'em horns)
Well, at the time I started here I had a big interest in alcohol which I was able to nurture. While District Court 54B thought that I should suspend my studies in this direction, I was already in the middle of a thesis and this really great project fell into my lap for my disertation.
Mind you, I couldn't care less about Michigan State Riot, because I will always be a Grand Valley State University Laker at heart.
GVSU had a pretty good basketball team. I think Shaq and Kobe will take them to the top again this year.
Katie I do love your posts. I try not to miss any of them. They are always worth reading for their entertainment value if nothing else. Some are truly educational. I enjoy them all, even if I know or care nothing about the topic under discussion. Do keep posting. I so look forward to them. :-)
He of the ancient tooth (an old man watching) Remembering Fizz 1942 - 2001
- - - - - - - - - - http://NewsReader.Com/ - - - - - - - - - - Usenet Newsgroup Service New Rate! $9.95/Month 50GB
From: Katie McN
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 02:46:43 GMT
Hi oldfang@odds.com,
On 18 Apr 2003 23:22:03 GMT I noticed your interesting post:
Katie McN <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com> wrote: Hi Kenny N Gamera <turtlemeat69@hotmail.com>,
On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:26:15 -0400 I noticed your interesting post:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:12:30 GMT, Katie McN <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com> wrote in answer to my post:
You used the word right there: spartan lifestyle. Spartan implies a certain amount of choice.
... or, a possible mistake a person could make by going to Michigan State instead of the University of Texas. (Hook 'em horns)
Well, at the time I started here I had a big interest in alcohol which I was able to nurture. While District Court 54B thought that I should suspend my studies in this direction, I was already in the middle of a thesis and this really great project fell into my lap for my disertation.
Mind you, I couldn't care less about Michigan State Riot, because I will always be a Grand Valley State University Laker at heart.
GVSU had a pretty good basketball team. I think Shaq and Kobe will take them to the top again this year.
Katie I do love your posts. I try not to miss any of them. They are always worth reading for their entertainment value if nothing else. Some are truly educational. I enjoy them all, even if I know or care nothing about the topic under discussion. Do keep posting. I so look forward to them. :-)
Thanks Fangie. Imagine how good they'd be if I knew what I was talking about! ;-)
It's Me! Katie McN
<katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: Kenny N Gamera
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 20:12:59 -0400
On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:00:56 GMT, Katie McN <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com> wrote:
GVSU had a pretty good basketball team. I think Shaq and Kobe will take them to the top again this year.
Basketball? Is that the one with the tall guys and the pumpkin? Or is that the one with the toothless guys and the bisket.
Thank You and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
turtlemeat69@hotmail.com
From: Katie McN
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 02:50:30 GMT
Hi Kenny N Gamera <turtlemeat69@hotmail.com>,
On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 20:12:59 -0400 I noticed your interesting post:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:00:56 GMT, Katie McN <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com> wrote:
GVSU had a pretty good basketball team. I think Shaq and Kobe will take them to the top again this year.
Basketball? Is that the one with the tall guys and the pumpkin? Or is that the one with the toothless guys and the bisket.
Actually, basketball is what 5' 9" girls do to avoid having to work hard in Texas high schools.
It's Me! Katie McN
<katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: Kenny N Gamera
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:28:36 -0400
On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 19:12:30 GMT, Katie McN <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com> wrote:
Exactly. Plus, there is all the fun interaction they get when humiliated in front of large groups of people. Nothing like making a girl take her clothes off at a big party where the rest of the women then fondle and examine her intimate places until she gets very aroused. Having her finish herself off to the cheers and cat calls of the group is also a kick in the butt. I'm sure the girl loved every second of it. I know the other girls did.
Throw in a group of poor people taking revenge on the rich one and you score big time.
Whoops gotta go I just got e-mail from Virgin Amateurs.
Thank You and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
turtlemeat69@hotmail.com
From: Kenny N Gamera
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:30:00 -0400
On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:28:36 -0400, Kenny N Gamera <turtlemeat69@hotmail.com> wrote:
Whoops gotta go I just got e-mail from Virgin Amateurs.
Never mind they just wanted my credit card number.
Sigh.
...and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
turtlemeat69@hotmail.com
From: RodR
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: 19 Apr 2003 06:02:00 -0700
Kenny N Gamera <turtlemeat69@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ipe0av0cgb2dajrfss8e1f9vtuvv7bjpgo@4ax.com> ...
On 18 Apr 2003 07:57:52 -0700, rod_ramsey@yahoo.com (RodR) wrote:
The question is how can the poor dom entice the rich sub into a spartan lifestyle without blackmail and without making the sub too spineless.
You used the word right there: spartan lifestyle. Spartan implies a certain amount of choice.
Sparta was a city/state in Greece that was famous for it's strict dicipline and austere lifestyle. If I remember my ancient history corectly, it's army was the first truly regimented warriors (predating the Roman Leagion).
There is a small movement towards
developing simpler lifestyles, because of the stress and work involved in maintaining it. I have read that subs often seek a relationship with a dom to reduce the stress on them: the choices and worrying are made by someone else and they are free to do and feel.
I gave up working 14-16 hour days to afford a house that I only used for sleeping. I'm much happier now working a 40 hour week and living in a two bedroom house surrounded by trees and flowers.
So the dom is poor but happy poor. She does want or expect much in terms of pocessions or wealth. Over the course of the relationship, she teaches the sub the value of the simple things and the hardships of wealth (yeah right). So the how-to-cooking lessons become philosophy lessons as well, where the dom explains that the money spent on equipment is wasted and that the simple homemade stuff is better.
I know one wealthy person that I can say is happy with his place in life. After twenty years in the rat race he sold his business to his kids and now spends his days teaching music at a private school.
Thank You and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
turtlemeat69@hotmail.com
Rod
rod_ramsey@yahoo.com
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 09:45:46 -0500
On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:05:09 GMT, "Shon" <shonrichardshsd@earthlink.net> wrote:
"RodR" <rod_ramsey@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:7b47a54.0304170712.548cdbce@posting.google.com ... P.S. Why is it that the Dom is always rich and the sub is poor? I'm gonna have to work on a story that has the Dom living in a dingy two room apartment.
I have five chapters sitting in my hopper about a very poor dom. There is other things going on but the main things is that the dom is poor. I thought "Where is the poor dom and what is his story?"
I don't think there is a problem with the dom being poor. It is having the sub be rich, and yet unable to help the dom be less poor, which is the hassle. Whereas the rich dom really has no special reason to help the poor sub turn rich, you know?
But it could easily happen. Requires the same elements which make a rich person prefer a poor lover in any genre - love, usually, but definitely some emotional tie which makes the money and power insignificant to the relationship.
Both being relatively poor, though is easier to manage than a big class gap. Now, a college kid and a more mature divorcee whose shared tastes for wild adventure lead to a D/s affair might not quite be poor dominating rich, but it wouldn't need to be rich kid taking control of the poor older woman, either.
I stopped writing the story when it came across like a cooking show. The poor dom would do something creative with his sub and I would give these long explanations about how he made the restraints by hand, or what common household items could double as toys. I'm sure other people might find it entertaining but to me it was feeling like a textbook. Actually the idea of a dom hot-to show appealled to me more than the story.
I could see that. But then again, part of that is how toys can appeal anyway. They are part of the set, things which spice up the action, like any other scenery, but usually more intimate.
Another problem may be that money enables more and more elaborate games. I'm not sure there's too many subs who dream of being in a playground provided by the dollar store. As writers we have unlimited budgets and I think most writers want to take advantage of that. Having said that, I usually skip a story as soon as I see the mansion. Been there, done that.
Budgets are nice. It increases the options.
But D/s isn't about the tools, it is about the relationship. Cheap toys may not have the same amazing gee-whiz factor as some of the really cool stuff which shows up in some stories, but it doesn't mean they won't work.
I've enjoyed a lot of stories where the props were all improvised, in one fashion or another. In RL, especially as a teenager, I just didn't have the resources to go out and buy sex toys, even cheap ones. Making do was a necessity.
I think class differences is an untapped storyline with domination. There's a lot of nonconsensual stories where poor man blackmails rich gal, but few stories where rich gal gets a poor dom. If it worked for Lady Chatterly, why not try it again?
What does the rich gal want?
A guy who is hot, and who makes her feel special. A rich dom, though in the right class perhaps, might not treat the rich gal right. Plus, money alone doesn't buy love, no matter how good it can be at renting it.
Let's see - what if the rich gal (or guy) conceals the degree of wealth? That works in a lot of stories. If the poor dom does figure it out, which probably does happen eventually, there are many reasons not to turn it into an opportunity for profit. Honor, honesty, love, any of these could make sure that the dom keeps on dominating, but stays poor. Love might lead to marriage, which theoretically equalizes the wealth - but if rich enough, prenups and lawyers might deny the poor dom real wealth and power, even if the accomodations and toys are better.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Tesseract
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: 21 Apr 2003 05:49:38 -0700
Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<kdb4avk6bv8nd6dtjs6sivoarjhlemdlj1@4ax.com> ...
On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:05:09 GMT, "Shon" <shonrichardshsd@earthlink.net> wrote:
"RodR" <rod_ramsey@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:7b47a54.0304170712.548cdbce@posting.google.com ... P.S. Why is it that the Dom is always rich and the sub is poor? I'm gonna have to work on a story that has the Dom living in a dingy two room apartment.
I have five chapters sitting in my hopper about a very poor dom. There is other things going on but the main things is that the dom is poor. I thought "Where is the poor dom and what is his story?"
I don't think there is a problem with the dom being poor. It is having the sub be rich, and yet unable to help the dom be less poor, which is the hassle. Whereas the rich dom really has no special reason to help the poor sub turn rich, you know?
But it could easily happen. Requires the same elements which make a rich person prefer a poor lover in any genre - love, usually, but definitely some emotional tie which makes the money and power insignificant to the relationship.
Religion. The Dom has experience as, though not necessarily still practicing as, a Buddhist or a member of one of those Christian cults that practice poverty. This could help make the sub less rich, though not to the benefit of the Dom.
Tesseract
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:25:02 -0500
On 21 Apr 2003 05:49:38 -0700, HyperTesseract@hotmail.com (Tesseract) wrote:
Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<kdb4avk6bv8nd6dtjs6sivoarjhlemdlj1@4ax.com> ... On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:05:09 GMT, "Shon" <shonrichardshsd@earthlink.net> wrote:
"RodR" <rod_ramsey@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:7b47a54.0304170712.548cdbce@posting.google.com ... P.S. Why is it that the Dom is always rich and the sub is poor? I'm gonna have to work on a story that has the Dom living in a dingy two room apartment.
I have five chapters sitting in my hopper about a very poor dom. There is other things going on but the main things is that the dom is poor. I thought "Where is the poor dom and what is his story?"
I don't think there is a problem with the dom being poor. It is having the sub be rich, and yet unable to help the dom be less poor, which is the hassle. Whereas the rich dom really has no special reason to help the poor sub turn rich, you know?
But it could easily happen. Requires the same elements which make a rich person prefer a poor lover in any genre - love, usually, but definitely some emotional tie which makes the money and power insignificant to the relationship.
Religion. The Dom has experience as, though not necessarily still practicing as, a Buddhist or a member of one of those Christian cults that practice poverty. This could help make the sub less rich, though not to the benefit of the Dom.
Yes, that could work out OK. Also somewhat matches my experiences, because a lot of the non-christian fen folk I hung with (and was part of) had some crossovers with the D/s crowd. Playing with either the Christian Doms or the Satanists tended to get into odd moral grounds. You know, the inquisitors or sacrificial torturers?
Or maybe not. Anyway, there was more room for playing with D/s and sex with the other religions, while giving the power of ritual and the blessings of the divine on the practices. It is amazing what people will do in order to find god (or goddess, or whatever).
Again, maybe it isn't amazing. It is part of what makes religion so important, that people can easily get into doing things without checking them against their own internal, usually ambivalent and confused, morality.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: RodR
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: 18 Apr 2003 07:25:22 -0700
Hi right back Katie McN <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com>,
Hi rod_ramsey@yahoo.com (RodR),
On 17 Apr 2003 08:12:06 -0700 I noticed your interesting post:
[ ... ]
P.S. Why is it that the Dom is always rich and the sub is poor? I'm gonna have to work on a story that has the Dom living in a dingy two room apartment.
I think you're on to something here and look forward to the story. Make sure the money the sub has is inherited or gained in a way that doesn't make it look like the person is in anyway powerful. I can see all sorts of possibilities as control of the sub is developed and wealth transfers and the sub gets a taste of poverty. Hmmm.
In keeping with Naive's Fdom story I decided to make Liz the daughter of a man employeed by Trevor's dad. Trevor is the spoiled if somewhat nerdy son of the town's richest man and Liz is working at a strip club to make ends meet. So far all I have is the basic outline and a good portion of Trevor and Liz's characters fleshed out.
Thanks for the encouragement,
Rod
rod_ramsey@yahoo.com
From: Katie McN
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:54:14 GMT
Hi rod_ramsey@yahoo.com (RodR),
On 18 Apr 2003 07:25:22 -0700 I noticed your interesting post:
Hi right back Katie McN <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com>,
Hi rod_ramsey@yahoo.com (RodR),
On 17 Apr 2003 08:12:06 -0700 I noticed your interesting post:
[ ... ]
P.S. Why is it that the Dom is always rich and the sub is poor? I'm gonna have to work on a story that has the Dom living in a dingy two room apartment.
I think you're on to something here and look forward to the story. Make sure the money the sub has is inherited or gained in a way that doesn't make it look like the person is in anyway powerful. I can see all sorts of possibilities as control of the sub is developed and wealth transfers and the sub gets a taste of poverty. Hmmm.
In keeping with Naive's Fdom story I decided to make Liz the daughter of a man employeed by Trevor's dad. Trevor is the spoiled if somewhat nerdy son of the town's richest man and Liz is working at a strip club to make ends meet. So far all I have is the basic outline and a good portion of Trevor and Liz's characters fleshed out.
If you need background for the strip club, check out Lap Dancer which I posted in the Fishtank a few weeks ago and will be posting to ASSM in final form in a few days.
It's Me! Katie McN
<katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: RodR
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: 19 Apr 2003 06:27:14 -0700
Katie McN <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com> wrote in message news:<0e40av0h44ghg9aaj378q8dvohq5765bfp@4ax.com> ...
Hi rod_ramsey@yahoo.com (RodR),
If you need background for the strip club, check out Lap Dancer which I posted in the Fishtank a few weeks ago and will be posting to ASSM in final form in a few days.
Now I know why I've been wanting to do a stripper story for the last month. I'll have to google search it and re-read it.
Thanks again,
Rod
rod_ramsey@yahoo.com
From: Katie McN
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:47:17 GMT
Hi rod_ramsey@yahoo.com (RodR),
On 19 Apr 2003 06:27:14 -0700 I noticed your interesting post:
Katie McN <katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com> wrote in message news:<0e40av0h44ghg9aaj378q8dvohq5765bfp@4ax.com> ... Hi rod_ramsey@yahoo.com (RodR),
If you need background for the strip club, check out Lap Dancer which I posted in the Fishtank a few weeks ago and will be posting to ASSM in final form in a few days.
Now I know why I've been wanting to do a stripper story for the last month. I'll have to google search it and re-read it.
Thanks again,
PeeJ and I have just about finished the revision and it will be posted tomorrow.
It's Me! Katie McN
<katie@katie-mcnNOSPAM.com>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
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From: Shon Richards
Re: Keiko, by Naive
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 04:11:25 GMT
"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:v9mv5pril47j9f@news.supernews.com ...
I like the name.
My first compliment is that I really liked the beginning. Davey felt real to me. He was a little self-deprecating, a little paranoid and not sophisticated at all. The delivery felt natrual. I knew this kid.
Which leads me to my first negative. I don't know Keiko. I have my suspicions but I really would like to know more. We have a tall Amazon Asian girl with a fondness for lovers who resemble kids. Hmmm. That's intriguing. She can be an interesting character but because we never learn more about her, she's just a fantasy figure. How did she come to like kids? How did she get the impulse to dominate? The fact that a lot of the domination takes place in her younger brother's bedroom creeped me out but it kept me intrigued. You have some neat stuff being hinted but never explored.
Now I understand that in a stroke domme/sub male fantasy, maybe you don't want to get into details. That's sad because your beginning felt like a slice-of-life story. Davey is interesting. Keiko deserves some depth too. You could easily double the length of this story by getting into how/why Keiko is this way.
My other compliment is that I liked how Davey's submission felt like he was a desperate male more than he is naturaully submissive. He felt like a guy dying to get laid and willing to tolerate abuse just to get some. That gives us a motive for his submission and it helped me relate to him. I think if you ran with that, you would have an even stronger story.
The last thing I think that needs improving and this is only a suggestion to think on, is that from when she first challenges him at his locker to when she manhandles him in the bedroom, that is an awfully long time where nothing happened. I became a little bored and was dissappointed that she didn't beat him up a little like he first suspected. If I were you, I would throw in more hints that she has a physical need to dominate him rather than just telling him to get in the car.
All in all, I think you have a great beginning for a story that can be more than just a stroke fantasy. I would certainly be interested in reading more.
Shon Richards
A good portion of my stories can be found at my never-finished website at http://www.asstr.org/~ShonRichards/ All of them can be found through ftp at http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/ShonRichards/