Fish Tank Story Comments - Fish Tank

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From: Souvie
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 20:26:09 GMT

On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 07:50:13 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote:

This week in the FishTank we have two authors who have contributed to the FT before. Both of these stories were written for the Anniversary. The stories are as different and unique as their author. This first submission is a complete story by Mat Twassel. It is 2,209 words in length. A man helps his mother get rid of basement trash and finds a treasure.

FishTank Guidelines apply:

Yipee! I'm first!

1) 2 positive comments

Positive: I like the title. Very apropos.

Positive: I like the descriptions in this passage:

It was from the days before Playboy showed pubic hair. Bare breasts back then were enough for me. More than enough. Coral pink nipples poking bravely through coarse fishnet were not the only secret inches of that long ago Miss May I'd memorized in those hurried, dangerous half-minutes, but they were the ones that still stuck firmest in my mind these many years later. By now that Miss May might be a grandma.

2) 2 suggestions for improvement

Improvement: At the end I was a tad confused. I didn't know whether the narrator had stopped off at a pet store on the way home and gotten another pale goldfish, or whether the narrator's name was Duke.

Other than that bit of confusion, the story was an enjoyable read!

- Souvie

From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: 8 Jul 2002 15:25:22 -0700

There are quite a few things that I like about this story, Mat, but to be fair to the other responders, I'll not mention all of them <g> It's not often that an adult writer can write children's' dialogue convincingly. Even when they're quoting verbatim from overheard conversations, it seems to come across as having an adult ‘spin' on the conversations. I think it is probably why ‘regular' children often do not feature prominently in stories written for adults – when they are a key element of the story, they tend to be ‘extraordinary' children, and we aren't put off by them acting like miniature adults. However, there are some wonderful parts in this story where you have the ‘feel' of childhood spot on. For example, this is kids in a nutshell:

"Yeah, if you're so smart, why don't you stick your finger in the tank?"

THAT is perfect. So is Jenny's reaction to his tears. Of course she'd be uncomfortable enough to leave for a go-cart ride.

Which leads me to one thing that bugged me. The flow of the Jenny-Narrator relationship. As a reader, we love Jenny right off. She's nice to him, she's not as infantile as her friends, she's intelligent. Then we dislike her for being shallow and just like every other girl her age. Then he's married to her. Too much of a jump. I'd really like to have seen how the relationship developed a bit more. Okay, she went off to ride another boy's go-cart, but how did they get back together? Did she bring him a replacement fish? (I realize that as written the answer is ‘no', but there has to be something more).

The other suggestion I have is also related to the story flow. You've got a lot of very long paragraphs that probably would be better served broken up. In a couple of places, the narrator's focus changes within a paragraph, and it causes some minor confusion. Fex – this paragraph:

She waited. Barb looked at Jenny, and Jenny looked back at Barb, and their eyes shared something gleeful, something naughty, something impossibly secret. I shivered. That a girl could use the word "mate" was almost inconceivable to me. The fish tank motor hummed, fat bubbles glubbed upwards, the nickel-plated killer fish drifted silently and serenely, oodles of goldfish in their fist-tight tummies, and no one said a word. In fact, a few days before this, though on a day when no girls were present, the subject of the piranhas' sex life did come up. The fish had seemed momentarily to kiss, and Timmy Fray asked Paul, "Do you ever see them do it?" Paul assured us that the piranhas were both boys. "Maybe they're homos," Robbie Peters suggested. "Maybe you're a homo," someone told Robbie. Now Barbara Cox's question about mating hung hot in the nervous air.

The first time I read it, my eyes glossed over the "a couple of days before" reference, and it felt that they were making the ‘homo' comments right then. Then, when it came up in the next paragraph that he was "I was afraid one of the guys would say something about the fish being homos" I was caught off guard enough to have to go back and reread. I'd like to see it split in a couple of places:

The fish tank motor hummed, fat bubbles glubbed upwards, the nickel-plated killer fish drifted silently and serenely, oodles of goldfish in their fist-tight tummies, and no one said a word. A few days before this, though on a day when no girls were present, the subject of the piranhas' sex life did come up. The fish had seemed momentarily to kiss, and Timmy Fray asked Paul, "Do you ever see them do it?" Paul assured us that the piranhas were both boys. "Maybe they're homos," Robbie Peters suggested. "Maybe you're a homo," someone told Robbie.

Now Barbara Cox's question about mating hung hot in the nervous air.

This passage is another one that sounds just like a group of school kids hanging out together, the uncomfortable feeling of boys and girls in mixed company. They're not confident with each other, they don't know how to react with each other. Broken up into smaller paragraphs makes it easier to get the stilted sound of the conversation across.

You've got a great eye for detail and description. This story is full of subtle phrases that keep the senses working, but it's not overdone.

"Big as parking meters" instead of the more common "big as dinner plates," "Schools of them weaving smoothly through perfectly tuned tropical waters." That just FEELS like fish.

Okay, I'm done. It's a good story, Mat. Very good. I like sweet memory stories, and this one has a summer, lazy-fish feel to it. I'd like to see it fleshed out more, because you've written a very obvious backstory that you're not sharing <g>

Alexis.

From: oosh
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 01:11:45 +0000 (UTC)

I thought this was lovely.

and rather than watching Paul feed the fish, I watched the way Jenny's neck shifted into shoulder, the way her shoulder smoothly became her back, the way her back disappeared beneath the fuzzy terrycloth of her shirt.

On first reading, this worked brilliantly for me. The thought is good and comes across really well. On a second reading, the verbs didn't seem quite right.

"Aren't you afraid they'll mate?" Barbara asked. She waited. Barb looked at Jenny, and Jenny looked back at Barb, and their eyes shared something gleeful, something naughty, something impossibly secret.

And while we're here, I was interested to find that the switch of dialogue was not indicated by paragraph breaks. I don't think that's a fault - this is just an observation. It works here, because their conversation is all of a piece in the observation of the narrator. I loved the shape and rhythm of the second sentence of that quoted paragraph. I wonder, though, if it wouldn't be improved by making the first two commas into semi-colons. For me, that would give it better pacing, and make the final appositions tighter. It's great as it stands, though.

I liked the narrative voice and its evocation of childhood sentiments was accurate and not at all forced. The whole thing was quite real and vivid for me. More than that, though, the story was beautifully paced and beautifully shaped. Personally, I didn't resonate to the idea of the fish tank being christened "Duke", or the idea of the abiding ghostly presence of its erstwhile inhabitant. The paternally-imposed name was good early on, but to see it float to the surface at the end felt incongruous and unwelcome in the new context. But I did very much accept the fish tank's role as a romantic talisman, and I loved the way it was used, both to support and lift the romantic sub-plot, and to round off the story.

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 21:05:11 -0600

On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 07:50:13 -0400, "Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote:

First thing, the time transitions are very abrupt. I think, and this is a bit of a repeat, the paragraph breaks don't happen often enough to split things up.

But the big time changes from past to present and back are too short, confusing me at first. The first one, going into the past, flows along neatly. We get into some memories about the objects, then it runs right into recalling the past directly.

I wiped my eyes. "I don't want any more fish," I said. "I don't want any more fish ever again."

After all those magazines, the tarp didn't seem too heavy. I carried it out and covered the magazines. I anchored the tarp with a couple of old bricks, then I went inside and took a shower, and Mom and I had dinner, German pot roast, one of her specialties. After dinner we sat in the living room and we talked for a while, and then it was time for me to go.

Right here, time jumps. We're back in the present, and nothing warns us. Not enough, anyway.

It was dark when I left, and while I was driving it started to rain. It was one of those endless night time rains, and it was still raining when I parked the car and went to the house. Against my body I cradled the fish tank.

"Duke!" Jenny said. "Oh, Duke, it's so good to see you again."

I put the fish tank on the table right next to the bed so we could see it while we made love.

Again, time seems to jump a little, jarring things. We know he heads home, and time seems to fly by apparently. While the ending feels nice, it doesn't flow so well to me. I'm not sure that there is no time between arriving home and Jenny saying that, nor am I sure that the Narrator's name isn't also Duke. No way to tell that; maybe even if it wasn't, the fish's name got stuck on him.

I'd want just a little bit more in those parts, to help explain the situation. It is just fine, perfect even, for the moment of special contact, the sad eyes and crying, to turn into the spark of eternal love. I just think that a little bit more about that, not just one line revealing Jenny's presence, another giving a bit of info on the relationship, would make the story better.

Long paragraphs are a hazard. It is easy enough to write out thing and just go on, but breaking thing up to make the focus changes obvious is part of making the story perfect.

I liked the kid's conversation. It felt right. The whole situation had the nice complexity and uncertainty of that time. It is maybe a little different now for teens, but the basic stuff doesn't change (teens now are extremely likely to have seen much more than just a bit of Miss May, but that extra knowledge doesn't transfer to knowing more about getting into relationships).

I "liked" the interaction with the parents. The guy has some problems getting easy support, and it shows - the "other guys" seem to get the big fishtanks, not him. I really "liked" how mom casually and critically got rid of Duke. Not much recognition, at least not right away, of what her son thought about the situation. Or how it looked, telling him about it that way when his first girl friend was over. It illustrates one of our primary teen rules: Don't let mom talk about you to your friends!

I call this "liked" because it touched a creepy feeling, the reminder of a time when finding my place wasn't easy, and my parents didn't seem like the best guides to my new home as an adult. Often supportive - getting a fishtank when they perhaps couldn't afford one (an obvious explanation for why it was so small) - but not always perfect in understanding.

I'd kind of like to see a bit more about the romance, even as another flashback after the current ending. OTOH, that is just a matter of wanting a bit more sex and romance in a sexy story. But that is another improvement suggestion :-)

To me, the ending wasn't strongly foreshadowed. We don't see anything other than the tingly beginnings of romance in the past, so it is still a surprise when we discover that first romance turn into the present one. Of course, we don't know that Jenny hasn't been married twice along the way, nor that she has six kids by other men, or any other tawdry little details :-) So maybe, they just got together back in school and never parted. It doesn't matter, does it? They are obviously in love now.

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

From: Bradley Stoke
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: 9 Jul 2002 04:30:59 -0700

Mat

I really enjoyed this. In fact, I think I ought to make an effort to read more of your stories if they're all as good as this. It was a rather moving story of adolescent love, which cleverly hid its real intent to the very end. Weren't we so soppy when we were kids? It was all so intimidating and troubling, as our hormones pushed us into shape, and we first found things like breasts, nipples and thighs suddenly incredibly exciting. Whereas hardly a day before it would have been plastic soldiers, talking dinosaurs and even fish (the meaner the better!)

This was one of the few stories of love and romance I've read by a male contributor that I've actually enjoyed. You clearly have a talent for telling a story that sets the environment right, the language right and somehow avoids the problem that so much first person narrative has of dodging the need to make the protagonist real and vivid. I'm sure many people will praise you for its pace, structure, appropriateness of language, and other literary things. I shall mention the fish.

Your description of fish and their swimming around behind glass was beautiful. I could sort of imagine what they looked like, swimming backward and forwards. I've seen piranhas in aquariums. Can they actually be kept as pets? But mean looking things they are too? Poor old Duke. You felt for the thing as it was flushed down the loo. But more than anything you felt for the protagonist's loss and embarrassment. And his tears! It's difficult to remember too well, but boys do cry when they're in their early teens. That facility somehow vanishes as you get older, but it brought back some (not very pleasant) memories.

And continuing on descriptions, I also really liked your descriptive passages as you wrapped up all those old magazines and gathered all that other crap together. Forty year old Scientific Americans and National Geographics are probably worth quite a bit, but not all of us are willing to find a buyer. You could almost feel the weight of them all. Very well described. Beautifully evocative.

Criticisms? Not many. I thought it was funny how the fishbowl for unlucky Duke metamorphosed into a FishTank. (Although there's some mention of it being both a fish tank and a bowl in one paragraph). Perhaps I missed something, but I'm sure it was a fishbowl that the protagonist's father bought his son. (What a nice man. And the protagonist so obedient. Are there really such perfect father-son relationships in this world?) And, because the requirement is for two "things to improve", I'll have to mention (I don't know) that I think it's a shame that there are two entries in one week for the FishTank. I'm sure that this diminishes the value of Mat's wonderful story and Alexis' romantic tale of fame, fortune and cocoa. Each of them should have had a week to themselves. Then we could relish their memories that much longer.

Bradley Stoke

For More : http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke

From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: 9 Jul 2002 12:43:00 -0600

"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote:

FISH TANK - THE ONE THAT GOT AWAY
by Mat Twassel

1) 2 positive comments

1 Captures the aspects of (extreme) youth brilliantly.

2 I like the way it segues from the present task into the past situation.

You know, it is as hard to write anything useful as a positive to Mat as it is to find a suggestion for improvement. You could say "The man can write." That would be true, but would it be helpful.

2) 2 suggestions for improvement

1 I would like a clearer ending. I really would. Are they now married?

2 And why, if the fishbowl evokes such memories, had he not asked for it before?

Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c anon584c@nyx.net fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon

From: Selena Jardine
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: 11 Jul 2002 08:26:37 -0700

"Desdmona" <me@desdmona.com> wrote in message news:<uiiv6hp5691je1@news.supernews.com> ...

This week in the FishTank we have two authors who have contributed to the FT before. Both of these stories were written for the Anniversary. The stories are as different and unique as their author. This first submission is a complete story by Mat Twassel. It is 2,209 words in length. A man helps his mother get rid of basement trash and finds a treasure.

FishTank Guidelines apply:

1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!

What a pleasure to have two such good stories to comment on in one week!

Nitpicks:

1) I'm not really happy with Jenny saying "Life can be so strange" at the end of her discussion of cats eating kittens. That's the statement of a much older person, something philosophical that I'm not sure a child would say. The rest of the paragraph is great; that sentence sticks out.

2) My other nitpick also has to do with Jenny (who is a bit of a bumpy character for me.) I think that instead of "skipping" down the stairs after watching the narrator cry, she might walk down. Does watching him cry fill her with glee? I hope not. That's the feeling I get as the reader when she skips.

Nice moments:

1) Several people have mentioned the realism of the kids. I'll jump in and mention the realism of the parent-child interaction, especially the mother. "You've got to take better care of your things," especially right in front of a girl, clueless that this would be mortifying - it's right on the money. Perfect. There are several other examples of this kind of interaction. You've got it down.

2) I like the way you get the feeling of ambiguity at that age: I wanted this but I didn't want it; I felt this but I felt the opposite. It's the end of the relative clarity of childhood and the beginning of the fuzziness of adulthood. You capture it beautifully.

Thanks for letting us read this, Mat!

Selena
selenajardine@yahoo.com

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:06:43 -0500

On 11 Jul 2002 08:26:37 -0700, selenajardine@yahoo.com (Selena Jardine) wrote:

Nitpicks:

1) I'm not really happy with Jenny saying "Life can be so strange" at the end of her discussion of cats eating kittens. That's the statement of a much older person, something philosophical that I'm not sure a child would say. The rest of the paragraph is great; that sentence sticks out.

Hmm, there are two reasons for that to happen. One, she is quoting, and some kids do that nicely. Two, she is a philosophical child. A thinker. She is quite well old enough to fall into that pattern, mature enough. So the only real question is whether it fits into her character.

2) My other nitpick also has to do with Jenny (who is a bit of a bumpy character for me.) I think that instead of "skipping" down the stairs after watching the narrator cry, she might walk down. Does watching him cry fill her with glee? I hope not. That's the feeling I get as the reader when she skips.

Defensive happiness illusion. The purring kitten syndrome, in reaction to the person who kicked her. Real girls (and boys for that matter) often behave in weird, complex ways.

I know that I sure did. I confused my parents at least as badly as they confused me.

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

From: PleaseCain
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: 12 Jul 2002 22:17:03 GMT

Wow, you really juked me with that twist at the end. Good ol' awkward kid actually got the girl at the end of the movie!

I have a laundry list of things I enjoyed about this story. Just yesterday I was talking with a friend about that gangly time between childhood and young adulthood, at the first awakenings of sexuality, where boys don't know how to act, flipping from childishness to maturity and back again - and here you've captured that period with so much effect. The peer pressure and the trifling concerns (that paragraph starting with "Piranhas eat their babies" and ending with "I was afraid one of the guys would say something about the fish being homos" still makes me laugh aloud), the stiff dialogue between the narrator and Jenny that again depicts the awkwardness of the age, the descriptions of Duke being a fish for a first-grader, for a kindergartner even. I like "tweezle." And of course that scene where he inexplicably cries before Jenny.

The phrase "Coral pink nipples poking bravely through coarse fishnet were not the only secret inches of that long ago Miss May I'd memorized in those hurried, dangerous half-minutes ..." kind of threw me. I assume it's a reference to masturbation, and to the inches of his penis in addition to Miss May's bustline, but the phrasing is a bit off in my mind. Would the meaning remain intact if you moved Miss May to the beginning of the sentence: "Miss May's coral pink nipples bravely poking through the course fishnet were not the only secret inches I'd memorized in those hurried, dangerous half-minutes . . ." But "coral pink nipples bravely poking through the course fishnet" still sounds a tad wordy.

To really nitpick, I'll bring up the word "okay," just as a way of provoking a silly discussion. Some people really insist on that spelling, but I wonder what most of the writers here prefer. I had always heard that OK was originally an abbreviation for Old Kinderhook, the nickname of the eighth American president, Martin Van Buren, who was something of a political wizard and a machine boss in his hometown in upstate New York - "OK" was one of his campaign slogans, a touch of personalismo which assured voters that Old Kinderhook would make everything OK, and that if you cast a ballot for him, you too would be OK. I've also read that a decade earlier, Boston newspapers were engaging in some sort of clever game amongst themselves, where they used abbreviations to refer to particular events or people, and that this was the seed of the later Van Buren phrase. So then, I wonder, where does the spelling "okay" come from?

And speaking of which, what about come and cum? I think I can understand the euphemism of come and came as the act of climaxing. So where did "cum" come from! Is cum only a noun? Does it matter?

Another fine story.

Cain

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:45:35 -0500

On 12 Jul 2002 22:17:03 GMT, pleasecain@aol.com (PleaseCain) wrote:

To really nitpick, I'll bring up the word "okay," just as a way of provoking a silly discussion. Some people really insist on that spelling, but I wonder what most of the writers here prefer. I had always heard that OK was originally an abbreviation for Old Kinderhook, the nickname of the eighth American president, Martin Van Buren, who was something of a political wizard and a machine boss in his hometown in upstate New York - "OK" was one of his campaign slogans, a touch of personalismo which assured voters that Old Kinderhook would make everything OK, and that if you cast a ballot for him, you too would be OK. I've also read that a decade earlier, Boston newspapers were engaging in some sort of clever game amongst themselves, where they used abbreviations to refer to particular events or people, and that this was the seed of the later Van Buren phrase. So then, I wonder, where does the spelling "okay" come from?

OK has no definitive origin (the slogan thing is vague because OK was in use already). As such, asking for a definitive spelling is a bit much. Either OK or okay seem perfectably acceptable. As seems to be okie-dokie or however you'd spell such word sounds.

And speaking of which, what about come and cum? I think I can understand the euphemism of come and came as the act of climaxing. So where did "cum" come from! Is cum only a noun? Does it matter?

One of those mysteries which will never be known or answered.

AFAIK "cum" is a new version of the word, invented by porn writers to distinguish its meaning from the more common "come" which was used before.

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

From: Desert Don
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: 13 Jul 2002 05:14:57 -0700

For my posting (according to the rules) the story code should probably be (m,1st, reluct) 2 positives:
This piece really hit home for me on the nostalgia angle. I was there! Same guys, same nerdy hesitation and misgivings with the girls. I even raised fish. Great dialog - both with the kids talking to each other and the child-parent interaction. Somehow it always seemed to me that my parents, on those occasions when I could sway them to my desires, always managed to get me less than I had envisioned. Ref. A bowl instead of a 'tank' and a goldfish rather than a pair of Jack Dempsy's or a school of Cardinal Tetras. I could really relate to 2+ negatives (Nitpickers really)

"Would you?" my mother said, obvious relief in her eyes.

Asked? Does one ever 'say' a question?

It's name is Duke.

Its

A tear drop slid out, slid slowly down

teardrop

It was one of those endless night time rains,

nighttime

Additional comments:

Background research: You must have had more half minutes than I did ....

from the days before Playboy showed pubic hair. Bare breasts back then were enough for me. More than enough. Coral pink nipples poking bravely through coarse fishnet were not the only secret inches of that long ago Miss May I'd memorized in those hurried, dangerous half-minutes, but they were the ones that still stuck firmest in my mind There are no May 'centerfolds' with the attributes: 'Coral pink nipples poking bravely through coarse fishnet', that you describe. Perhaps you had time to look at the rest of the layout (or is that more correctly called a 'spread'?) Some guys had all the luck. I had a snoopy old curmudgeon as a pharmacist at the local corner store where condoms were kept under the counter and the Playboys were on the top of the rack. Viewing times depended on how long your buddies could keep him distracted - usually just a quick flip of the centerfold. :-) Addendum: It has been a labor of love (thank you!) and here is the data: June Cochrane of Dec. '62 had a diaphanous black gown, Pat Russo of Nov.'65 had a black babydoll, same with Connie Kreski of Jan. '68. Liv Lindeland of Jan. '71 showed the first more-than-a-hint of pubic hair and the first full frontal was Marilyn Cole of Jan.'72. There are no centerfolds ever before '71 wearing fishnet of any color. Anymore of this fun homework I can do for you? <SEG> Sorry, I don't have a collection of cover pics.

The fish had seemed momentarily to kiss, and Timmy Fray asked Paul, "Do you ever see them do it?" Paul assured us that the piranhas were both boys. "Maybe they're homos," Robbie Peters suggested. "Maybe you're a homo," someone told Robbie. Now Barbara Cox's question about mating hung hot in the nervous air.

These are kids raising fish ... I was surprised that some smartass in

the crowd (Paul?) didn't do the putdown on Robbie and Timmy by pointing out that most (but not all) aquarium fish lay eggs (piranhas are egglayers) .... I.e. "Do it? DO IT? They lay eggs dumbo!". (FWIW they're also relatively difficult to 'sex')

Again FWIW Siamese Fighting fish (Bettas) are probably the most erotic of the breeding fish: the male, after he coaxes his consort under his bubblenest bed, wraps himself around her squiting out an invisible cloud of sperm (milt) as she releases her eggs. They 'do it' over and over until she has released all of her eggs (sometimes hundreds), a few at a time. After each release he swims down and catches them all in his mouth and spits them into the nest. Primitive oral sex!!! Would a full description qualify for a 'Tank story? :-) Maybe a 'zoo' category? :-)

<snip>
- Souvie
At the end I was a tad confused. I didn't know whether the narrator had stopped off at a pet store on the way home and gotten another pale goldfish, or whether the narrator's name was Duke. Other than that bit of confusion, the story was an enjoyable read!

I didn't find it confusing at all- just the usual shock of a 'twist'

at the end and the nice warm feeling that Jenny, now his lover (wife?), remembers (in detail -'Duke') that special moment when she first made contact with him.

Loved it!
DD

From: Tesseract
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: 13 Jul 2002 00:36:45 -0700

pleasecain@aol.com (PleaseCain) wrote in message news:<20020712181703.02821.00000285@mb-cu.aol.com> ...

...

To really nitpick, I'll bring up the word "okay," just as a way of provoking a silly discussion. Some people really insist on that spelling, but I wonder what most of the writers here prefer. I had always heard that OK was originally an abbreviation for Old Kinderhook, the nickname of the eighth American president, Martin Van Buren, who was something of a political wizard and a machine boss in his hometown in upstate New York - "OK" was one of his campaign slogans, a touch of personalismo which assured voters that Old Kinderhook would make everything OK, and that if you cast a ballot for him, you too would be OK. I've also read that a decade earlier, Boston newspapers were engaging in some sort of clever game amongst themselves, where they used abbreviations to refer to particular events or people, and that this was the seed of the later Van Buren phrase. So then, I wonder, where does the spelling "okay" come from?

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=okay comfirms your story and adds a bit to it. I think 'okay' is a phonetic spelling produced either by someone unfamiliar with the 'OK' form - if you only hear it you have to make up your own spelling; or by someone trying to make it more formal.

And speaking of which, what about come and cum? I think I can understand the euphemism of come and came as the act of climaxing. So where did "cum" come from! Is cum only a noun? Does it matter?

To help re-ignite this discussion I offer http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/cum_in_the_oed.html and if someone has a better source for this Elf Sternberg reference, please post it.

Cain

Tesseract

From: Gary Jordan
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: 13 Jul 2002 08:38:12 GMT

Tesseract said:

pleasecain@aol.com (PleaseCain) wrote in message news:<20020712181703.02821.00000285@mb-cu.aol.com> ...

...

To really nitpick, I'll bring up the word "okay," just as a way of provoking a silly discussion. Some people really insist on that spelling, but I wonder what most of the writers here prefer. I had always heard that OK was originally an abbreviation for Old Kinderhook, the nickname of the eighth American president, Martin Van Buren, who was something of a political wizard and a machine boss in his hometown in upstate New York - "OK" was one of his campaign slogans, a touch of personalismo which assured voters that Old Kinderhook would make everything OK, and that if you cast a ballot for him, you too would be OK. I've also read that a decade earlier, Boston newspapers were engaging in some sort of clever game amongst themselves, where they used abbreviations to refer to particular events or people, and that this was the seed of the later Van Buren phrase. So then, I wonder, where does the spelling "okay" come from?

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=okay comfirms your story and adds a bit to it. I think 'okay' is a phonetic spelling produced either by someone unfamiliar with the 'OK' form - if you only hear it you have to make up your own spelling; or by someone trying to make it more formal.

And speaking of which, what about come and cum? I think I can understand the euphemism of come and came as the act of climaxing. So where did "cum" come from! Is cum only a noun? Does it matter?

To help re-ignite this discussion I offer http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/cum_in_the_oed.html and if someone has a better source for this Elf Sternberg reference, please post it.

<juvenile snicker>"Chorlton-cum-Hardy"</juvenile snicker>

Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often." <I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays </I>

From: Mat Twassel
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: 13 Jul 2002 20:59:44 GMT

Fish Tank #48 Mat's Response

Thanks very much to Alexis, Souvie, Oosh, Jeff, Bradley, Uther, Selena, and PleaseCain for reading my story and offering comments and suggestions. Thanks to other readers, and my apologies to anyone whose comments I may have missed.

Alexis and Jeff had problems with flow and paragraph size. The particular paragraph that Alexis points to was one that gave me some difficulty. I found it peculiarly awkward relating an incident behind the incident. One thing I might have done is differentiate better through the use of appropriate verb tense. Splitting the paragraphs might have helped, too; I'm not so sure I'd make the split where Alexis suggests - maybe I'd split at the point the story jumps back two days. I'm not sure yet. I do agree that readers can get lost in long paragraphs. Still, this paragraph feels of a piece to me - but then I'm so familiar with it. It's something I will definitely look at.

Alexis, Souvie, Jeff, and Uther (and maybe everybody had there not been an injunction against repeating) find difficulty with the development/conclusion. Alexis writes:

Which leads me to one thing that bugged me. The flow of the Jenny-Narrator relationship. As a reader, we love Jenny right off. She's nice to him, she's not as infantile as her friends, she's intelligent. Then we dislike her for being shallow and just like every other girl her age. Then he's married to her. Too much of a jump. I'd really like to have seen how the relationship developed a bit more. Okay, she went off to ride another boy's go-cart, but how did they get back together? Did she bring him a replacement fish?

I agree that there's a lot missing. I left it out by design, and I recognize that for many readers it may have damaged the story. I meant the missing pieces to be part of the story; maybe I should have put them in; maybe that would have been a better story. What I was aiming for was neither mystery nor magic but the heightened moment. Sometimes it's a matter more of emotion than sense.

Oosh aptly shows that a couple of commas would be better as semi-colons. She also says:

Personally, I didn't resonate to the idea of the fish tank being christened "Duke", or the idea of the abiding ghostly presence of its erstwhile inhabitant. The paternally- imposed name was good early on, but to see it float to the surface at the end felt incongruous and unwelcome in the new context

I meant not the fish tank to be named Duke but the fish, not that that makes a difference in the last part of Oosh's comment; I don't know how to avoid having Duke return, though I share some of Oosh's concern that the method of it seems like too much fancy footwork.

Bradley says:

I thought it was funny how the fishbowl for unlucky Duke metamorphosed into a FishTank

Yes, I'm not sure what if anything to do about that. In our memory, fish bowls become fish tanks. And the vast basement of my parents' house last time I visited had shrunk to something exceedingly snug. On the other hand, the little evergreens in the backyard, the ones I used to jump over despite my dad's protests, are now sixty feet tall.

Besides being concerned that the ending isn't clear, Uther wonders why the narrator had not asked for the fishbowl before. I don't know the answer to that. It's not something that occurred to me. Maybe it's not something that occurred to the narrator. I will say this: when a fishbowl has no water in it, it doesn't much matter which side of the glass the fish is on.

Selena says:

I'm not really happy with Jenny saying "Life can be so strange" at the end of her discussion of cats eating kittens. That's the statement of a much older person, something philosophical that I'm not sure a child would say. The rest of the paragraph is great; that sentence sticks out.

My other nitpick also has to do with Jenny (who is a bit of a bumpy character for me.) I think that instead of "skipping" down the stairs after watching the narrator cry, she might walk down. Does watching him cry fill her with glee? I hope not. That's the feeling I get as the reader when she skips.

I like Jeff's answers:

Hmm, there are two reasons for that to happen. One, she is quoting, and some kids do that nicely. Two, she is a philosophical child. A thinker. She is quite well old enough to fall into that pattern, mature enough. So the only real question is whether it fits into her character.

I think Jenny is a little of both: philosophical for a kid and probably mimicking something she heard. That's the reaction I hoped the reader would have. I did mean for the sentence to stick out just a little. I didn't mean for it to blow the character's credibility. What I was looking for in that brief exchange was kids caught in a play of being grown up while at the same time being very much themselves.

Defensive happiness illusion. The purring kitten syndrome, in reaction to the person who kicked her. Real girls (and boys for that matter) often behave in weird, complex ways.

True. Also she's a kid. Also this is through the eyes (blurred with tears) of the narrator. I doubt he actually saw her skipping down the stairs, but in his mind she was skipping.

Please Cain points to:

The phrase "Coral pink nipples poking bravely through coarse fishnet were not the only secret inches of that long ago Miss May I'd memorized in those hurried, dangerous half-minutes ..." kind of threw me. I assume it's a reference to masturbation, and to the inches of his penis in addition to Miss May's bustline, but the phrasing is a bit off in my mind.

I agree that this sentence almost seems to be part of another story. I played with it quite a bit and never did come up with something fully satisfying. Though masturbation (or masturbatory impulses and overtones) is something naturally attached to these moments, I hadn't really intended the thing to reference masturbation so explicitly, and I think the fault might lie in the inches. I don't remember now why I chose "inches." Maybe I'd rewrite it:

Coral pink nipples poking bravely through coarse fishnet were not the only secrets of that long ago Miss May I strove to memorize in those hurried, dangerous half-minutes, but they were the ones that still stuck firmest in my mind these many years later.

I'll work on it.

Cain also takes issue with "okay." I've used OK before, but it always makes me uneasy. Maybe it bring Oklahoma too much to mind. By coincidence, Ruthie, of Ruthie's Club, sent out her style sheet yesterday, and she prefers "okay," so I'm in good company. On the other hand I prefer TV to tee vee. But tee shirt to T-shirt. OK, so no one uses tee vee. Except maybe in Oklahoma. I've only been in Oklahoma once in my life, in a motel room outside of Oklahoma City, and there was a television set in the room, but it wasn't labeled. Cain also asks about cum versus come. The first time I ever saw cum in print I was affronted. It seemed so incredibly vulgar and uncouth. Almost like having a cum-stain on the page. Now I don't mind it nearly as much. I've even used it. Cum, I think, has more viscosity than come. It's heavier, more substantial. It's naughtier and dirtier and sometimes it has a nice effect. See, as we grow older we don't necessarily become more rigid. We mellow. Come, I think, better captures the swoon of orgasm. Using cum as a verb is like changing a flat tire with a bulldozer. Don't do it!

It was a pleasure reading your comments. Thank you all again for sharing your thoughts; the input is useful. It lets me know how the story was read. And of course thanks for the many very nice things you said. I appreciate it.

Thanks as well to Ray for proposing the Fish Tank Anniversary Celebration. What a wonderful idea! And finally, although it should go without saying, this story was written in honor of the Fish Tank and in special honor of its originator and wonderful hostess, Desdmona.

- Mat Twassel

Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com

From: Mat Twassel
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: 13 Jul 2002 21:01:27 GMT

DD - It is great having you in the FishTank. Welcome! I enjoyed your post. I hope your over your (reluct) now and will continue to take part.

Thanks for pointing out teardrop and nighttime and it's.

"Would you?" my mother said, obvious relief in her eyes.

Asked? Does one ever 'say' a question?

Good question. Yes, I think. Said means uttered, in this case. I think "asked" interrupts the flow and mildly alters the sense - in that the answer to her question is assumed. In other words, it's not a real question. It's more a statement of thanks, though posed as a question with a question's inflection.

Additional comments:

There are no May 'centerfolds' with the attributes: 'Coral pink

nipples poking bravely through coarse fishnet', that you describe. Perhaps you had time to look at the rest of the layout (or is that more correctly called a 'spread'?) Some guys had all the luck. I had a snoopy old curmudgeon as a pharmacist at the local corner store where condoms were kept under the counter and the Playboys were on the top of the rack. Viewing times depended on how long your buddies could keep him distracted - usually just a quick flip of the centerfold. :-) <

Okay, I confess. I don't remember if it was May or December. Maybe it was January. But May seemed to fit better. I remember her as Miss May, but maybe things other than her month blurred my mind.

Addendum: It has been a labor of love (thank you!) and here is the

data: June Cochrane of Dec. '62 had a diaphanous black gown, Pat Russo of Nov.'65 had a black babydoll, same with Connie Kreski of Jan. '68. Liv Lindeland of Jan. '71 showed the first more-than-a-hint of pubic hair and the first full frontal was Marilyn Cole of Jan.'72. There are no centerfolds ever before '71 wearing fishnet of any color. Anymore of this fun homework I can do for you? <SEG> Sorry, I don't have a collection of cover pics.<

Hmmm. I really do have a recollection of this Playmate. I'm not entirely inventing this. It's possible she wastn't a centerfold, but I think she was. The year would have been at earliest 1957, possibly closer to 1960. 1965 at the latest. I was pretty young then, but I could read as well as look at the pictures as well as get excited about them. And I had plenty of fresh brain cells left to remember the most important details. The fishnet was orange or brownish orange. Although I remember it as a fishnet (a real fishnet) for the purposes of the story, it is possible that it was a very loose-weave shawl. Is there a site on the web showing Playboy Playmates from that era? Now you've got me curious.

These are kids raising fish ... I was surprised that some smartass in

Right. Although in fairness to Paul, I'm not sure that the kids would relate laying eggs to sex, exactly. The issue wasn't birth, it was fucking.

Enjoyed your description of the Siamese Fighting fish. Thanks!

- Mat

Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com

From: dennyw
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:27:12 -0700

On 13 Jul 2002 05:14:57 -0700, shuswap69@hotmail.com (Desert Don) held forth, saying:

"Would you?" my mother said, obvious relief in her eyes. Asked? Does one ever 'say' a question?

Aside from Mat's remarks about this being rhetorical, see one of the other writing threads recently. Was quite a discussion on 'said' being "invisible" and other words (asked, snarled, etc) having their places but often being obtrusive.

And, as Mat said in other words - Welcome to the Funhouse!

-denny- (curmudgeon)

"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it." - G.B. Shaw

From: PleaseCain
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: 13 Jul 2002 22:59:34 GMT

On the other hand I prefer TV to tee vee. But tee shirt to T-shirt. OK, so no one uses tee vee.

Right, or "peecee" for PC. Or Nassuh. How about the Yookay? OK/Okay, I'm getting a little carried away here, but as we're all presumably word-lovers, is it not of interest to wonder who started spelling out okay in place of an abbreviation?

I'm hoping Lisala chimes in on this one.

Tee-shirt is another one, Mat.

Cain

From: Desdmona
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 21:04:53 -0400

FISH TANK - THE ONE THAT GOT AWAY
by Mat Twassel
==============

Mat~

As always you've written a simply lovely story. You make romance seem so easy. And yet, we know it's not. Not easy to write at times and definitely not easy to make it look easy. Did that make sense?

Of course I'm late, always late, so all the really good comments about capturing youth and its ambiguities are taken. But geesh, Mat, you did it great!

I don't happen to agree with those that miss the intervening story. Or at least, I didn't miss it. It was enough for me to know that he ended up with Jenny.

I have to say that I thought the same thing that Oosh thought about the fishbowl being named Duke. After all, the fishbowl is the only thing Jenny ever saw of Duke. It seemed natural to me for her to joke that the bowl was Duke.

Cain beat me to it, but "tweezle." What a fantastic word! It is that motion you make when you feed a goldfish. Did you make it up?

My two suggestions for improvement:

1) What is antique twine? If it's used around the magazines, does that make the magazines antique or just old?

2) Terry cloth shirts: isn't terry cloth the material that towels are made from? Did they make shirts of that material then, I don't know. Maybe a beach cover-up, but a shirt seemed odd.

It's such a lovely story. My comments are disjointed and don't do it justice and for that I apologize.

Thanks so much for participating. What a great support you've been to the FT!

Des

From: Mat Twassel
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: 14 Jul 2002 03:07:33 GMT

Thanks for the response, Des. I'm very happy you liked the story.

I have to say that I thought the same thing that Oosh thought about the fishbowl being named Duke. After all, the fishbowl is the only thing Jenny ever saw of Duke. It seemed natural to me for her to joke that the bowl was Duke.

I see. Sort of. And then again, I don't, not quite. Okay, I know this is not exactly the same, but let's imagine that your daughter introduces you to her new pet, Cynthia, but all you see of Cynthia is a leash and collar. Now years later your daughter happens to find that leash and collar and shows them to you. "Oh, Cynthia," you might say with a smile. But surely you don't think the leash and collar are named Cynthia.

Cain beat me to it, but "tweezle." What a fantastic word! It is that motion you make when you feed a goldfish. Did you make it up?

I think so.

My two suggestions for improvement:

1) What is antique twine? If it's used around the magazines, does that make the magazines antique or just old?

I agree that antique might be overdoing it for the twine. A little too cute. The narrator wants you to know that all that string his parents saved finally found a use.

2) Terry cloth shirts: isn't terry cloth the material that towels are made from? Did they make shirts of that material then, I don't know. Maybe a beach cover-up, but a shirt seemed odd.

Shirts (and even shorts) for children and teens were made of terrycloth. I owned a number of them, mostly pullovers, but some with buttons. Very comfy.

- Mat
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com

From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: 17 Jul 2002 20:01:01 -0600

bradley_stoke@hushmail.com (Bradley Stoke) wrote:

Mat

I really enjoyed this. In fact, I think I ought to make an effort to read more of your stories if they're all as good as this.

All of Mat's stories, at least all that I've read - and that's most of what he has published on ASSM and ASS - are good.

I won't say that they are all as good as this one, but I will say that they are all good.

"Pump Song" is even, hard as that may be to believe, better.

Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c anon584c@nyx.net fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon

From: Desert Don
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: 19 Jul 2002 02:32:51 -0700

mmtwassel@aol.com (mat twassel) wrote in message news:<20020713170127.00770.00000343@mb-mg.aol.com> ...

DD - It is great having you in the FishTank. Welcome! I enjoyed your post. I hope your over your (reluct) now and will continue to take part.

Hmmm. I really do have a recollection of this Playmate. I'm not entirely inventing this. It's possible she wastn't a centerfold, but I think she was. The year would have been at earliest 1957, possibly closer to 1960. 1965 at the latest. I was pretty young then, but I could read as well as look at the pictures as well as get excited about them. And I had plenty of fresh brain cells left to remember the most important details. The fishnet was orange or brownish orange. Although I remember it as a fishnet (a real fishnet) for the purposes of the story, it is possible that it was a very loose-weave shawl. Is there a site on the web showing Playboy Playmates from that era? Now you've got me curious.

Sorry, don't have anything other than the centerfolds, so I can't check the rest of the pictures relating to the Playmate articles. I know that I have related more to some of the accompanying pics rather than the centerfold on occasion and wondered why the editor(s) (?Hef?) chose the particular shot that was used. In any case, the answer to your question about a website is YES but after I downloaded the collection I seem to have misplaced the thread. - Damn! I shall keep looking around and if I relocate it I shall endeavor to get it to you. Somewhere, too there is a site with all the cover pics as well but I do not have a reference or a download of it. Of course, if you have a particular centerfold that you're dying to see drop me a line with a specific request :-) DD

From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Fish Tank - The One That Got Away, by Mat Twassel
Date: 17 Jul 2002 20:01:46 -0600

dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.invalid wrote:

On 13 Jul 2002 05:14:57 -0700, shuswap69@hotmail.com (Desert Don) held forth, saying:

"Would you?" my mother said, obvious relief in her eyes. Asked? Does one ever 'say' a question?

Aside from Mat's remarks about this being rhetorical, see one of the other writing threads recently. Was quite a discussion on 'said' being "invisible" and other words (asked, snarled, etc) having their places but often being obtrusive.

I think that "asked" is as invisible, or nearly as invisible, as "said."

If an attribution is needed, I would order them in this way:

1 He asked OR he said.
2 He continued.
3 He whispered, or he snarled, or he shouted. etc. 4 He said quietly, or other Tom Swifties. 5 He grinned.

"'Come with me,' he grinned," is impossible. Try it; you can't grin a sentence. "'Come with me.' he hissed," is - if anything - worse. You can hiss some sentences, but not that one.

For the most part, readers can get from context of the story how the words are said. Sometimes the volume or other accompaniment is critical. In that case, find the right verb; don't add an adverb unless it is REALLY necessary.

"Sarah, darling, ..." he murmured.

"What did you say?"

"Sarah, darling, ..." he started over in a much firmer voice.

"You don't need to speak that loud. I heard you, I just wanted to hear it again."

One question I have is when somebody says something which is formally a question, but intended to convey information or an order, instead. Example:

Two teens are exchanging diskettes just before class.

The teacher expresses: "Do you two have to do that here?"

Now is that:
"'Do you two have to do that here?' the teacher asked," or is it: "'Do you two have to do that here?' the teacher said"?

Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c anon584c@nyx.net fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon

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