Comments on Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck.

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From: PleaseCain
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: 25 Feb 2002 19:43:08 GMT

What a concept. You could go a number of ways with this: Does he pursue her? Or does she pursue him? And how did she land in a porn flick? You have natural tension built in for plotting, since she is married. Not to mention the taboo of incest.

You lost me in a couple of spots in the long sex paragraph. There are phrases like "dealt with the flow" and "as she popped him out" that are too vague to imagine. It's tough, because you can also become mired in too many details and come off sounding like an anatomy text. What you do decide to include should be clear to the reader, however.

I hope you submit this again after you've expanded the story. It will be interesting to see where you go with it.

Cain

 

From: Father Ignatius
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: 25 Feb 2002 11:56:42 -0800

desdmona22@aol.com (Desdmona22) wrote in message news:<20020225100754.15614.00000448@mb-bh.aol.com> ...

I'm posting two stories in the FishTank this week. The following is a complete story specifically written for a Flash Fiction contest by Spline Duck. It is 298 words. (His goal was 300) He's looking for motivation and direction to lengthening the story and thought the FishTank might provide some suggestions. Same guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments

1. Very good effort. Flash is tough.

2. Can I attempt to demotivate you from lengthening and encourage you to leave it? The constraints of Flash are so forbidding that they make a special kind of creature not readily convertible to any other. A lengthened Flash story would end up falling between two stools, like blood from a haemorrhoid.

2) 2 things to improve

1. You could still save some words in a re-write. This is always a precious thing in Flash cuz you always have other uses for them.

2. You can't get too clear. Fex:

The early adolescent with blond pigtails was now a married woman with brown hair.

vs.

The teen with blonde pigtails had become a wife with brown hair.

 

From: Nicholas Urfe
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: 25 Feb 2002 14:59:55 -0800

Hey, Spline. Let's talk about Cassie's Lips. (But first, as a digression: has anyone else ever flirted with a cousin, jokingly or otherwise? Yes? No?)

Out of the gate, I have to agree with the Padre. (Alert the media!) Keep it flashed. Don't flesh it out. I'm not saying you couldn't, and I'm not saying you wouldn't have an interesting story. But this is a case where less is more - where that basic frisson of the familiar and the utterly unexpected frottaging lightly at a family reunion is enough; more would - well, would be more, and would require more details, more explanations, more bits of business and circumstances that result, more weight on a delightfully frothy piece.  - Really, what we have here are two pozzies in one, so I'll back up and restate them to be fair, and neener neener, I don't care if I'm repeating what the Padre said; I'm saying it in my own unique idiom, so there.

A) Good flash fiction piece. Which is tough as bugger-all to do. I've tried my hand at it from time to time, and always end up with prose poems, which is cheating (to my devious little mind); whenever I think of real people I always think of all the witty things they want to say to each other and can't resist shovelling it all in, so I greatly admire your restraint. Especially given -

B) The scenario. Amusing, startling, titillating, fun, and just enough to kick the flash piece in the pants but not so much you're left feeling cheated. Just right; finely judged; well done.

But.

1) Exposition. Always a tricky bastard, exposition becomes a rude motherfucker in flash fiction, and has to be watched like a hawk. When your word count is so small, the temptation is to pack as much as you can into every turn of phrase, and leave nothing extraneous; but this can feel exactly like what it is: a desperate bid for expediency.

For instance: and while writing is as resistant to rules of thumb as any other human endeavor that can't be measured with a slide rule, nonetheless, this is as good as any: shoehorning direct exposition into dialogue will always call attention to itself and feel like cheating. This line, say:

. "Hi! I'm your cousin Cassie. I'll bet you didn't recognize me."

 - is serving as indirect exposition (we know that the person addressed is supposed to know Cassie, and thus they were familiar at one point, but that he/she [it's the first line of the story; we don't know anything about the addressee yet, not even that she/he is the narrator, necessarily), but it does so rather bluntly: it TELLS us the addressee doesn't recognize Cassie, rather than letting us infer it. But, and more to the point, it's direct exposition, as well: "I'm your cousin Cassie." Even if one can easily enough imagine someone saying these precise words at a family reunion, this is the first sentence of a piece in which every word counts, and the direct exchange of information from character to addressee (from writer to reader) sets the tone and the stage badly. Better to hide it away, tuck the corners under, and when in doubt let the narrator tell us directly, with a minimum of fuss. By way of example, and not as a specifically suggested fix (since it sets up other problems you might want to do away with; still - more information, but the same number of words):

"Geeze, you dork. It's me. Cassie."

My teenaged cousin with blond pigtails had turned into a married woman with short brown hair while I wasn't looking.

2) And again, I'm going to quibble with dialogue. The final two lines of the piece seem odd. The line "I'm looking forward to learning all about you" sits oddly in Cassie's mouth, even if (again) it might be something one could readily enough overhear at a real family reunion; for one thing, Cassie expects the narrator to recognize her, so - at one point, at least - they knew enough about each other to, well, be expected to recognize each other, years later. "I'm looking forward to learning all about you" is something you say to someone you've just met for the first time, maybe, and maybe have heard a scrap or two about in passing, by reputation, from some third party.

Also: "I'm looking forward to learning all about you" seems more motivated by the author's desire to set up an ironic stinger than by something endemic to Cassie and her character and her situation.  - Also, by giving that line to Cassie and then having the narrator repeat it for the closing sting, you rob the irony of its unexpectedness; you deflate it, unintentionally. I would recommend a different phrasing - there's a lot of ways to get the point across, from "What have you been doing with yourself, Cassie?" to "I'm looking forward to hearing all about your adventures" - and setting it up differently. (Cassie almost doesn't have to say anything at all, really.)

One more, last point to make (sorry, but; heck, let's just say my first two points were really ONE point, about dialogue, and here's my second): it's unclear whether the memory of Cassie in the porn movie is sparked by her kiss, or merely coincides with it. I'd recommend making the chain a little more clear. (Is the narrator's memory just taking a moment to catch up with itself, or is it specifically sparked by the touch of those lips?)  - And the "we" who had been watching the amateur sex video is unclear, and could be dropped.

But! Final analysis: we have a charming and original flash fiction piece - and that, friends and neighbors, is an avis decidedly rara - that needs one more run through the typing mill, polishing this and reconsidering that. Not bad. Not bad at all, by half.

Best,
 - n.

"The city will follow you. You will roam the same streets. And you will age in the same neighborhoods; and you will grow gray in these same houses. Always you will arrive in this city. Do not hope for any other - "

as long as the coffee doesn't suck:
http://www.asstr.org/~nickurfe/ift/
http://www.ruthiesclub.com/

 

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:56:28 -0600

On 25 Feb 2002 14:59:55 -0800, nickurfe@yahoo.com (Nicholas Urfe) wrote:

Hey, Spline. Let's talk about Cassie's Lips. (But first, as a digression: has anyone else ever flirted with a cousin, jokingly or otherwise? Yes? No?)

Hmm, is that like a quiz thing? I think it has come up before. Only problem with answering is the squicky association it may have for some people.

I flirt with lots of people, and cousins are OK for kissing. Some places, OK (legal) for doing more than kissing. Once you get past first cousins, I don't know if you even need to worry about it being improper (let alone illegal, which it often isn't).

Out of the gate, I have to agree with the Padre. (Alert the media!) Keep it flashed. Don't flesh it out. I'm not saying you couldn't, and I'm not saying you wouldn't have an interesting story. But this is a case where less is more - where that basic frisson of the familiar and the utterly unexpected frottaging lightly at a family reunion is enough; more would - well, would be more, and would require more details, more explanations, more bits of business and circumstances that result, more weight on a delightfully frothy piece.

On this, I'll say it here: the story works fine as a flash piece. If you want to do a longer story which revolves around these characters, I think it would work fine, but I don't feel that starting from the flash story would be the best beginning. Do it as a new tale, more background to begin with, and when you do the reunion scene, do it to fit the entire piece (longer) rather than short and sweet.

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

 

From: Father Ignatius
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: 26 Feb 2002 03:20:00 -0800

 ...or whatever the agreed subject-line convention is for de-railing FT threads from LitCritShit.

nickurfe@yahoo.com (Nicholas Urfe) wrote in message

 ...a review more than three times as long as the story reviewed. Shees. We need[1] a label for this. "Russian Reviewer Syndrome" won't do, because it couldn't have been said better in a tenth of the words. Well, kiddies? "Urfing"?

Warm bread: Here's to Nicholas, surely the lousiest FlashFic exponent we have. We love ya, baby.

Q. Was "cuyahoga"[2] longer than 300 words?

A. Oboy.

[1] Well, it's more of a "nice to have, eckshly.

[2] In obedience to tradition, I slavishly follow the unintended cummingsism.

 

From: Selena Jardine
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: 26 Feb 2002 08:27:27 -0800

FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com (Father Ignatius) wrote in message news:<6302d417.0202260320.696420ba@posting.google.com> ...

 ...or whatever the agreed subject-line convention is for de-railing FT threads from LitCritShit.
nickurfe@yahoo.com (Nicholas Urfe) wrote in message
 ...a review more than three times as long as the story reviewed. Shees. We need[1] a label for this. "Russian Reviewer Syndrome" won't do, because it couldn't have been said better in a tenth of the words. Well, kiddies? "Urfing"?

Um, no.

Is there some kind of onomatopoetic term for the feeling you get when you've been reading Urfe's ferris-wheel prose, spinning and wheeling and forgetting to breathe, racing from one side to the other, melting cotton candy forgotten in your back pocket, hoping somehow you get stuck?

A. Oboy.

You said it.

Selena
selenajardine@yahoo.com

 

From: Father Ignatius
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:57:45 +0200

"Selena Jardine" <selenajardine@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:b653f8ec.0202260827.3dd1dc1f@posting.google.com ...

FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com (Father Ignatius) wrote in message news:<6302d417.0202260320.696420ba@posting.google.com> ...  ...or whatever the agreed subject-line convention is for de-railing FT threads from LitCritShit.
nickurfe@yahoo.com (Nicholas Urfe) wrote in message
 ...a review more than three times as long as the story reviewed. Shees. We need[1] a label for this. "Russian Reviewer Syndrome" won't do, because it couldn't have been said better in a tenth of the words. Well, kiddies? "Urfing"?
Um, no.
Is there some kind of onomatopoetic term for the feeling you get when you've been reading Urfe's ferris-wheel prose, spinning and wheeling and forgetting to breathe, racing from one side to the other, melting cotton candy forgotten in your back pocket, hoping somehow you get stuck?

Barfing?

"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/

 

From: Selena Jardine
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:02:11 GMT

Father Ignatius wrote:

"Selena Jardine" <selenajardine@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:b653f8ec.0202260827.3dd1dc1f@posting.google.com ...
FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com (Father Ignatius) wrote in message
news:<6302d417.0202260320.696420ba@posting.google.com> ...
 ...or whatever the agreed subject-line convention is for de-railing FT threads from LitCritShit.
nickurfe@yahoo.com (Nicholas Urfe) wrote in message
 ...a review more than three times as long as the story reviewed. Shees. We need[1] a label for this. "Russian Reviewer Syndrome" won't do, because it couldn't have been said better in a tenth of the words. Well, kiddies? "Urfing"?
Um, no.
Is there some kind of onomatopoetic term for the feeling you get when you've been reading Urfe's ferris-wheel prose, spinning and wheeling and forgetting to breathe, racing from one side to the other, melting cotton candy forgotten in your back pocket, hoping somehow you get stuck?
Barfing?

Hey ... that's IT!

 ... but in a good way.

Selena
selenajardine@yahoo.com

 

From: Father Ignatius
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:48:59 +0200

"Selena Jardine" <selenajardine@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3C7BDC06.1080706@yahoo.com ...

Father Ignatius wrote:
"Selena Jardine" <selenajardine@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:b653f8ec.0202260827.3dd1dc1f@posting.google.com ...
FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com (Father Ignatius) wrote in message
news:<6302d417.0202260320.696420ba@posting.google.com> ...
 ...or whatever the agreed subject-line convention is for de-railing FT threads from LitCritShit.
nickurfe@yahoo.com (Nicholas Urfe) wrote in message
 ...a review more than three times as long as the story reviewed. Shees. We need[1] a label for this. "Russian Reviewer Syndrome" won't do, because it couldn't have been said better in a tenth of the words. Well, kiddies? "Urfing"?
Um, no.
Is there some kind of onomatopoetic term for the feeling you get when you've been reading Urfe's ferris-wheel prose, spinning and wheeling and forgetting to breathe, racing from one side to the other, melting cotton candy forgotten in your back pocket, hoping somehow you get stuck?
Barfing?
Hey ... that's IT!
 ... but in a good way.
Selena
selenajardine@yahoo.com

[Shrewdly] I don't usually ask this question (on the grounds that, chances are, I may not want to hear the answer, but, "You're married, right?"

"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/

 

From: Selena Jardine
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:31:04 GMT

Father Ignatius wrote:

"Selena Jardine" <selenajardine@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3C7BDC06.1080706@yahoo.com ...
Father Ignatius wrote:
"Selena Jardine" <selenajardine@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:b653f8ec.0202260827.3dd1dc1f@posting.google.com ...
FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com (Father Ignatius) wrote in message
news:<6302d417.0202260320.696420ba@posting.google.com> ...
 ...or whatever the agreed subject-line convention is for de-railing FT threads from LitCritShit.
nickurfe@yahoo.com (Nicholas Urfe) wrote in message
 ...a review more than three times as long as the story reviewed. Shees. We need[1] a label for this. "Russian Reviewer Syndrome" won't do, because it couldn't have been said better in a tenth of the words. Well, kiddies? "Urfing"?
Um, no.
Is there some kind of onomatopoetic term for the feeling you get when you've been reading Urfe's ferris-wheel prose, spinning and wheeling and forgetting to breathe, racing from one side to the other, melting cotton candy forgotten in your back pocket, hoping somehow you get stuck?
Barfing?
Hey ... that's IT!
 ... but in a good way.
Selena
selenajardine@yahoo.com
[Shrewdly] I don't usually ask this question (on the grounds that, chances are, I may not want to hear the answer, but, "You're married, right?"

So Mr. Sebastian Verity, through many a devious and kind-hearted ruse, has been led to suppose.

Selena
selenajardine@yahoo.com

 

From: Selena Jardine
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:53:39 GMT

Father Nat:

[Shrewdly] I don't usually ask this question (on the grounds that, chances are, I may not want to hear the answer, but, "You're married, right?"

Me:

So Mr. Sebastian Verity, through many a devious and kind-hearted ruse, has been led to suppose.

To clarify: That's Mr. Sebastian Verity as was. He is now, of course, or believes himself to be, Mr. Sebastian Verity Jardine.

Selena
selenajardine@yahoo.com

 

From: oosh
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:15:06 GMT

Selena Jardine <selenajardine@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3C7C3C74.5040506@yahoo.com:

So Mr. Sebastian Verity, through many a devious and kind-hearted ruse, has been led to suppose.
To clarify: That's Mr. Sebastian Verity as was. He is now, of course, or believes himself to be, Mr. Sebastian Verity Jardine.

From what little I know of you, you will have done an excellent job. One lash of your eyebat, and I'd be certain that I was an optopus.

O.

 

From: Souvie
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:02:28 GMT

On 26 Feb 2002 03:20:00 -0800, FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com (Father Ignatius) wrote:

 ...or whatever the agreed subject-line convention is for de-railing FT threads from LitCritShit.
nickurfe@yahoo.com (Nicholas Urfe) wrote in message
 ...a review more than three times as long as the story reviewed. Shees. We need[1] a label for this. "Russian Reviewer Syndrome" won't do, because it couldn't have been said better in a tenth of the words. Well, kiddies? "Urfing"?
Warm bread: Here's to Nicholas, surely the lousiest FlashFic exponent we have. We love ya, baby.
Q. Was "cuyahoga"[2] longer than 300 words?
A. Oboy.
[1] Well, it's more of a "nice to have, eckshly.
[2] In obedience to tradition, I slavishly follow the unintended cummingsism.

I just realized that I need a dictionary nearby and at least three interpreters when I try to read a Nat post.

- Souvie
(still have no idea what the hell he just said)

 

From: celia batau
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:27:43 -0800

hi Nat!

"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:6302d417.0202260320.696420ba@posting.google.com ...

 ...a review more than three times as long as the story reviewed. Shees. We need[1] a label for this. "Russian Reviewer Syndrome" won't do, because it couldn't have been said better in a tenth of the words. Well, kiddies? "Urfing"?
Warm bread: Here's to Nicholas, surely the lousiest FlashFic exponent we have. We love ya, baby.

hey! don't make fun of Nicholas, he might get a nosebleed! besides, his speech is beautiful, so there! :)

<celia brings Nicholas a cup of tea and dabs his forehead with a damop cloth>

we locas have to defend our sweet delicate men. :)

-cb

celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.

Out of mind out of self.
-Arwen

 

From: Father Ignatius
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:22:14 +0200

"celia batau" <pinataheart@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:1014760410.730613@news2.bigplanet.com ...

hi Nat!
"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:6302d417.0202260320.696420ba@posting.google.com ...

[ ...]

Warm bread: Here's to Nicholas, surely the lousiest FlashFic exponent we have. We love ya, baby.

Upon mature consideration [cough, shuffle, fart] we belatedly recall that Nicholas Urfe won The Dulcinea Memorial Challenge (600 to 1,100 words) with the Gold Medal story, "Call and Response" (http://www.ruthiesclub.com/urfe/callresponse.asp). In an Ideal World, we would fall over ourselves hastening to give him proper credit for this but, this being Real Life, we shall pass by on the other side, averting our gaze. Unless cweet celia are prepared to make it worth our while to fake compassion, humanity and shit like that, ufcawce.[1]

hey! don't make fun of Nicholas, he might get a nosebleed! besides, his speech is beautiful, so there! :)

[Rolls eyes] [Shrug] Let the bastard bleed; it's good fertiliser. 'Sides, he's not nearly so cute now he's all grown up. Beard? Shees ...

Omigod. A semi-colon.

<celia brings Nicholas a cup of tea and dabs his forehead with a damop cloth>

O, Guard. I may puke.

Damop? Nevermind. http://www.uponthedownside.co.uk/voxinterview.htm He tied a cloth around his neck -just long enough to give him a pleasure ... Shees.

we locas have to defend our sweet delicate men. :)

Hey, I'm a sweet, delicate man. Difference is, I don't get credit for it, you pack of fucken bitches, you ...

[1] "Transactional Analysis" is the buzz-phrase you are groping for here, Gentle Readers.

"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/

 

From: celia batau
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:27:48 -0800

hi Nat!

"Father Ignatius" <FatherIgnatius@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a5h1rp$25qm$1@news.adamastor.ac.za ...

Unless cweet celia are prepared to make it worth our while to fake compassion, humanity and shit like that, ufcawce.[1]

<celia wiggles her eyebrows> :)

<celia brings Nicholas a cup of tea and dabs his forehead with a damop cloth>
O, Guard. I may puke.
Damop? Nevermind.

damop. lightly cool with just a hint of moisture. damp, duh.

(did reading that link make you feel all sticky and gross too?)

Hey, I'm a sweet, delicate man. Difference is, I don't get credit for it, you pack of fucken bitches, you ...

pobre de Nat. ok, you're sweet and delicate, too. :)

-cb

celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.

"when you chicks hold still, it's amazing how much sex you can have." -adam carolla

 

From: Nicholas Urfe
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: 26 Feb 2002 17:58:02 -0800

Father Ignatius wrote Selena Jardine:

[Shrewdly] I don't usually ask this question (on the grounds that, chances are, I may not want to hear the answer, but, "You're married, right?"

and Selena Jardine wrote right back:

So Mr. Sebastian Verity, through many a devious and kind-hearted ruse, has been led to suppose.

I'm going to have to flag this exchange as off-topic. You're supposed to be flirting with ME, people. Not each other. Chop-chop.

Celia, on the other hand: I'll feign sweet delicacy any day for tea from your hands and such solicitous care. But I tend as a rule to avoid nosebleeds. A bitch to get out of the silk, you know.

Best,
 - n.

"The women with whom he performs (and that's the right verb) tend to be squeaky-voiced, well-paid blondes about half his age. Several of them face the camera in 'Porn Star' and, giggling, talk about how much they enjoy working with Jeremy."

snerk. chortle. guffiggle.
http://www.asstr.org/~nickurfe/ift/
http://www.ruthiesclub.com/

 

From: celia batau
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:09:25 -0800

hi!

the story was funny. :) Nat yes. Nicholas yes. celia yes. we like it like it is. :)

"Desdmona22" <desdmona22@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020225100754.15614.00000448@mb-bh.aol.com ...

1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 things to improve
3) Try not to repeat!

pozzie one: the break where he goes back and reconnects the two images into the woman in front of him.

pozzie two: the sex in the memory is a nice place to put it and seems to create Cassie's character more than the dialogue.

neggie one: first sentence (not the dialogue sentence) is kind of weird. we had to go back and read it again to figure out the colors.

neggie two: "We had been watching an amateur sex video?" you mean the whole family watched it? :) wow. nothing wrong with that, but we just don't think we could eat the potato salad after that. ;)

-cb

Cassie's Lips
by Spline Duck
Copyright, 2000

 

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:54:32 -0600

On 25 Feb 2002 15:07:54 GMT, desdmona22@aol.com (Desdmona22) wrote:

Negatives first: I know that the story was intended to be short, but the transition to the "We had been watching ..." was too abrupt. He needs to explain who "we" were that was doing the watching, and when. Like, "A while ago, my girlfriend and I ..." or something similar. Not a lot of words nor a big change, just something to make the flashback recognition clear. My guess from the tone is that it would be "My wife and I ..." which makes for a rather complicated tale if it would be extended. Whereas the flash teaser memory and kiss is just fine, no complications in just remembering.

The ending lines, " I'm looking forward to learning all about you.", don't feel right. It means about the right thing, but not exactly what I think that a childhood friend/cousin would say. The echoing of it is OK, maybe, but perhaps saying it slightly differently would work better.

As in, she says "I'm looking forward to learning what you've been doing all these years."

He could answer the same thing, or maybe make it "I'm really looking ..." intensifying it, and being just slightly suggestive in tone or expression, unable to keep his secret memory from affecting his words.

Positive things: The Californian cousin thing is really nice. The flash story requirement to keep the descriptions short didn't stop it from getting a lot of info into the introduction, without being overwhelming. I may want to know more, but I don't need to in order to enjoy the tale.

Also, that greeting is one of the things I miss about being in California. It is also one of the few places where you can greet a male companion, perhaps even kiss (if not full on the lips) without feeling out of place nor implicitly being gay. At least, it was like that when I was out there last :-)

The sex video recognition bit is very nice. It gets a sex scene into the tale nicely, which is tricky in a short-short-short flash story without feeling rushed. It isn't so much that the sex scene itself is so hot. It is how it flows into the recognition, kissing the same lips which were so delightfully involved in the scene.

One last thing, though I mentioned it in another reply. The flash story is special for being well done in few words, covering a scene without having extraneous detail. If you decide to try for a longer version, don't. Do another tale, same people, maybe even same situation, but don't try to work the same magic, the "flash recognition" bit, into a longer tale.

Maybe that could work, but I think it would be out of place in a longer story. The flashback scene, for example, could be set up as soemthing happening a short while before the reunion, a bit of playing. You'd have a lot more going on with introductions, more explanation of how everyone in the family got along, what the relationships in the past and present were like.

Then, you'd have the fateful reunion with the "kissing cousin," and might reprise the video scene which was so enjoyable, amplified by recognition. We'd know a lot more about him, his family, and maybe even the cousin's past. I just think that with all that background for context, the impact wouldn't feel the same as with the flash story. It would be fun, but it would be a very odd place to leave the situation hanging in a longer tale.

How you work out what happens next is pretty flexible. But the background sets it up, whereas the flash story survives just fine without that.

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

 

From: DrSpin
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: 26 Feb 2002 07:01:32 -0800

In article <20020225100754.15614.00000448@mb-bh.aol.com>, desdmona said ...

I'm posting two stories in the FishTank this week. The following is a complete story specifically written for a Flash Fiction contest by Spline Duck. It is 298 words. (His goal was 300) He's looking for motivation and direction to lengthening the story and thought the FishTank might provide some suggestions. Same guidelines apply:
Cassie's Lips
by Spline Duck

Others have advised you to keep this story at Flash length. Your decision, Spliney, but I'll take you at face value and offer you some suggestions about how the story could be lengthened.

You have realised it's not a matter of adding a few paragraphs, otherwise you wouldn't be here. In a longer story, you can't get away with the contrivance factors unavoidable in 298 words. You'll have to supply credibility and motivation.

This means Cuz Cassie can't turn up at the door so soon after you stumbled across her on an X-rated video. Well, she can - but it sure is one hell of a coincidence.

In a longer story, I think you could do this:

1 Start at the reunion. You know Cassie is coming. Flash back to adolescent cousinly gropes. Feverishly sexy, that. A great many cousins did it (and then conveniently forgot about it as adults).

2 OK, she's changed. But there's something about her that is naggingly familiar. You can't put your finger on it. It'll come to you.

3 It does come to you - but after the reunion, when Cassie has long gone home. You fish out the video, just to make sure. Yep, it's her.

4 What a pity you didn't remember while she was still in town. Never mind. There's always next year's reunion.

That plotline has the circular elements I like in a story. And it finishes with a wry twist.

But it ain't a re-edit, Spliney. It's a total rewrite. Different story.

There's nothing at all wrong with the story as a Flash piece, it should be stressed. Your decision.

As an observation, BTW, everyone seems to be saying Flash is devilishly hard to write, and I don't agree. For me, the longer it is the harder it gets (yeah, yeah, I know). I am in awe of writers like Michael Dalton or Al Steiner, who keep producing novel-length stories in a production line. But Michael envies me for being able to dash off the short stuff. Go figure.

DrSpin

* also at neil@ruthiesclub.com and at http://www.ruthiesclub.com

 

From: celia batau
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:36:53 -0800

hi DrSpin!

"DrSpin" <drspin@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:a5g80c01vme@drn.newsguy.com ...

As an observation, BTW, everyone seems to be saying Flash is devilishly hard to write, and I don't agree. For me, the longer it is the harder it gets (yeah, yeah, I know). I am in awe of writers like Michael Dalton or Al Steiner, who keep producing novel-length stories in a production line. But Michael envies me for being able to dash off the short stuff. Go figure.

yay DrSpin! celia votes shorter is easier too! :)

-cb

celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.

Out of mind out of self.
-Arwen

 

From: Selena Jardine
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: 26 Feb 2002 08:56:14 -0800

desdmona22@aol.com (Desdmona22) wrote in message news:<20020225100754.15614.00000448@mb-bh.aol.com> ...

I'm posting two stories in the FishTank this week. The following is a complete story specifically written for a Flash Fiction contest by Spline Duck. It is 298 words. (His goal was 300) He's looking for motivation and direction to lengthening the story and thought the FishTank might provide some suggestions. Same guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 things to improve
3) Try not to repeat!

[sackafrackinUrfeNatfrickinceliaonedaylate. Fine.]

Speaking from the bottom of a Russian Author's heart, flash fiction's hard to do. You've done it so well here that I would add my vote not to lengthen this piece more than 50 words, if that; the discipline required by the strict form, like a sonnet, shapes the piece better than a freer hand would do.

I've been sitting here trying to frame specific suggestions about the very first line (like, "Hi ... recognize me? Cassie?" Surely this wedding-banded brunette wasn't my blonde adolescent cousin.) and the very last lines. Others have made such good comments, however, that I've given up. My only nitpick about the sex, which is very good, is the phrase "dealt with the flow." It's a bit workmanlike for the sense of the passage, in my mind. Otherwise, I think it's very well done indeed, especially bits like "nude, thoughtful-looking, closed-mouth."

Thanks for such a good example of flash fiction - something for me to pare down towards.

Selena
selenajardine@yahoo.com

 

From: Ray
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:14:47 -0500

"Desdmona22" <desdmona22@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020225100754.15614.00000448@mb-bh.aol.com ...

I'm posting two stories in the FishTank this week. The following is a complete story specifically written for a Flash Fiction contest by Spline Duck. It is 298 words. (His goal was 300) He's looking for motivation and direction to lengthening the story and thought the FishTank might provide some suggestions. Same guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 things to improve
3) Try not to repeat!
Submissions and comments are being housed at:
http://www.asstr.org/~Desdmona/FishTank/base
Questions or concerns can be directed to me at: Desdmona22@aol.com
************************************************************* Cassie's Lips by Spline Duck
Copyright, 2000
"Hi! I'm your cousin Cassie. I'll bet you didn't recognize me."

This one's so short trying not to repeat will be almost impossible:

Two positive Comments:

1) A nice tight little story that works excellently as a the small vignette it is. I wouldn't pad much beyond what it is, except to tweak it a bit. Let it stand alone  -  - if you want to tell the stories behind the story, do so separately, possibly using this story as a 'preface' to what may follow or has gone before. But definitely let it stand alone as well.

2) Though only speaking two lines, Cassie comes off as straight-forward and possibly semi-bold/aggressive. I like to see that, and if it was intended, then remember it 'if' you decide to tell the back stories.

Two things to improve:

1) The first paragraph starts like the story is from Cassie's POV in the first two lines. The third line is clumsy, and then the POV shifts. Simply adding the word 'had' can change this "She had spotted me across the crowded room and came to greet me."

2) In the last "memory paragraph" there is a time/scene shift between memories of the video and Cassie present kissing him. The last sentence needs rephrasing.

Okay, I'm going to repeat ...... The very last line doesn't work well. Something simple like "I think I'd enjoy that" I replied, or "I think I'll enjoy that" both say the same volumes with the allusions being provided by the reader's own mind, without the clumsy repeat.

Ray

 

From: Desdmona
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: 28 Feb 2002 14:12:13 GMT

Cassie's Lips
by Spline Duck
Copyright, 2000

D~

I'm a huge admirer of anyone that writes flash fiction successfully. This is a wonderful piece that strengthens my admiration. How do you guys do it? I'm so jealous!

Anyway, I think the thing about adding to an already successful piece is to add a little means you'll probably have to add a lot. Details beget details beget details and all that. But you've given just enough information to set the scene, and I can add all the rest in my overly flowery imagination. I like that. So I'm in favor of fixing a few things but not adding more.

It's a delicious setup really - one cousin discovering another is a porn actress. Imagine the brouhaha if the family finds out she's a porn star, and he watches porn. Well, I can imagine how all the elders at one of my family reunions would react. One aunt would be preaching fire and brimstone, another would be passing out nerve pills, all the while trying to pretend it never happened, while a third aunt would be furiously trying to change the subject. Meanwhile, we cousins would be soaking it all in, some in awe, some envious, and some with disgust. What's a family reunion without a scandal?

The things that niggle at me and might have been stated already, but I think need repeating are:

First, this sentence: "She spotted me across the crowd at the family reunion and came to greet me."

The way you have it implies that he must have been watching her as well, but how does he know her intent? Maybe she was heading for the food table and was sidetracked. Maybe he could say something like, "I'd watched her ease her way through the crowd at our family reunion with her eyes fixed on me." Or something that comes more from his POV.

Secondly, " ...as she held his juice. A small emission came from the tip, and she squeezed again. Her lips dipped to sample the small flow ..."

She doesn't swallow until she sits back and admires her work, and then she swallows - twice, which says to me she had a mouthful. I can tell you from experience it's very difficult, if not downright impossible, to reopen your mouth to get a last drop, without losing the liquid already in your mouth. So she either has to swallow before she samples again or she can run her closed lips across the tip. I think "sample" is where it runs into trouble. It implies tasting again.

And lastly, I agree with Janey and the others that have stated that the "We" in "We had been watching an amateur sex video ..." implies the crowd at the family reunion had been watching. (That's a whole other story with a group coding, isn't it? <grin>) Change the "We had" to "I had" and it solves it, I think.

Thanks D for letting us have a chance to sharpen our claws on a piece of flash fiction. The shortness of it made us[me] have to think much harder to find things to improve.

Des

 

From: Sagittaria
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 02:25:27 -0000

desdmona22@aol.com (Desdmona22) wrote in news:20020225100754.15614.00000448@mb-bh.aol.com:

Cassie's Lips
by Spline Duck
Copyright, 2000

Better late than never? :)

Negatives first.

1- California? wtf? How does that tie in to the story? I didn't get the connection at all.

2- This line struck me as comical: "As she slowly moved back, a long penis glided from her mouth." Interesting anatomy this girl must have. :)

Positives:

1- As others have said, I also like it just the length it is. Very well crafted, complete and interesting.

2- I like the theme of them being cousins. You haven't hinted at whether there was an unrequited crush (or even a requited one) but many of us can relate to feeling that way for a cousin.

 -  - >Sagittaria< -  -

I could never be a Democrat, because I like to spend the money I earn myself. But I could never be a Republican, because I like to spend it on drugs and whores. -Jim David

 

From: Leowulf
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 03:39:09 -0000

Ok - here is my response to Spline Duck's short entry. First, the good Duck was aiming for 300 words, and got 298 (99.33% accuracy) - well done! The two ideas I had to improve this vignette both involve adding the two missing words.

Ducky writes, "California style! Californians!" I understand where he's going with this - there are times, especially in when aiming for speed and relative brevity, when one uses only a minimum of words to convey an idea. Someone else might not understand just what he means here, though, so I'd change it to read: "California style! I love Californians!" That conveys the surprised and pleased feeling of the narrator while also keeping the meaning clear to the reader.

At the end of the reminiscence, the Duck writes as follows: "It's so good to see you. I'm looking forward to learning all about you." The reader understands from the next sentence that it is in fact Cassie who says this, but for an instant, there's some ambiguity here that may distract the reader. A useful alternative might read: "It's so good to see you!" Cassie said. "I'm looking forward to learning all about you." It reminds the reader of the name of the cousin-cum-actress, and makes it clear who's talking.

Another, very minor idea is my use of an exclamation point to end what is properly an exclamation following an extraverted cousin who is also used to expressing emotion by kissing a near stranger. Perhaps the very peripheral nature of such a suggestion may convey how very well done this particular offering is.

The positives are much easier to find in this work. It makes a superlative introduction to a possibly much longer story. The very graphic flashback puts sex on the reader's mind. Since this is just an introduction, in both the literary sense and in what is described, this is a very useful tactic in grabbing and holding the reader's attention.

Of course, this is not a longer story, and herein we see the other display of talent from the avian one. The story ends with the promise that there is more (possibly much more) that will happen between the narrator and his cousin. As the comedian leaves the audience laughing, this writer leaves the reader primed for more.

I'm sure that our very prolific Duck will indeed provide more in other tales, which we will enjoy reading!

Leowulf

 

From: Sagittaria
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 04:04:43 -0000

Leowulf <leowulf@softhome.nospam.net> wrote in news:Xns91C4D207B6374leowulfsofthome@127.0.0.1:

the cousin-cum-actress,

Double entendre of the week.

 -  - >Sagittaria< -  -

I could never be a Democrat, because I like to spend the money I earn myself. But I could never be a Republican, because I like to spend it on drugs and whores. -Jim David

 

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 11:39:21 -0600

On Sat, 02 Mar 2002 02:25:27 -0000, Sagittaria <sagittaria@softhome.net> wrote:

desdmona22@aol.com (Desdmona22) wrote in news:20020225100754.15614.00000448@mb-bh.aol.com:
Better late than never? :)
Negatives first.
1- California? wtf? How does that tie in to the story? I didn't get the connection at all.

It makes sense to those familiar with Californian culture (at least, Southern Californians). In a very short story, it isn't so easy to explain the connection.

It also implies that the family reunion takes place somewhere else. It seems to have an implicit USA'n setting, and for Californian culture to be out of place, somewhere pretty far from that state.

In few words, this comes across to me. It may not work for those who haven't enjoyed the traditional Californian close-contact method of greeting.

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

 

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 11:40:00 -0600

On Sat, 02 Mar 2002 04:04:43 -0000, Sagittaria <sagittaria@softhome.net> wrote:

Leowulf <leowulf@softhome.nospam.net> wrote in news:Xns91C4D207B6374leowulfsofthome@127.0.0.1:
the cousin-cum-actress,
Double entendre of the week.

Hmm, it does explain why using "cum" to mean orgasm (or the fluids released from it) can be confusing to those with a classical education :-)

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

 

From: oosh
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 02:46:39 GMT

Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in news:3c810e9e$0$1610$272ea4a1 @news.execpc.com:

Hmm, it does explain why using "cum" to mean orgasm (or the fluids released from it) can be confusing to those with a classical education :-)

Not so much confusing as - I don't know what - off-putting. When I see "cum" to mean "come", I feel it's somehow been jargonized, as if the original metaphor has been dropped; and when that happens, I feel that something has been lost. As for using "cum" to mean fluids ... I just stop reading (assuming I've got that far).

Sorry if that sounds hideously opinionated. I'm just voicing my own private quirks. (Some of them.)

O.

 

From: Jacques LeBlanc
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: 2 Mar 2002 21:55:51 -0800

oosh <oosh@gmx.NOSPAM.net> wrote in message news:<Xns91C61C86299B5ooshgmxnet@212.134.15.212> ...

Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in news:3c810e9e$0$1610$272ea4a1 @news.execpc.com:
Hmm, it does explain why using "cum" to mean orgasm (or the fluids released from it) can be confusing to those with a classical education :-)
Not so much confusing as - I don't know what - off-putting. When I see "cum" to mean "come", I feel it's somehow been jargonized, as if the original metaphor has been dropped; and when that happens, I feel that something has been lost. As for using "cum" to mean fluids ... I just stop reading (assuming I've got that far).
Sorry if that sounds hideously opinionated. I'm just voicing my own private quirks. (Some of them.)

I'm with you on this one. I suspect that the use of "cum" was originally a spelling error, but was prevalent enough that novice writers thought it was the proper way to spell "come" in this particular context. What really sets my teeth on edge, though, is the past tense form "cummed;" blech! The propagation of this spelling looks to me like a good example of memetics; it's somewhat similar to the misplacement of a girl's hymen halfway up her vagina (a bit of anatomical ignorance so common in these groups that writers who know better sometimes mistake it for a genre convention). Later, Jacques

 

From: Frank McCoy
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 01:18:52 -0600

fader2011@hotmail.com (Jacques LeBlanc) wrote:

oosh <oosh@gmx.NOSPAM.net> wrote in message news:<Xns91C61C86299B5ooshgmxnet@212.134.15.212> ... Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in news:3c810e9e$0$1610$272ea4a1 @news.execpc.com:
Hmm, it does explain why using "cum" to mean orgasm (or the fluids released from it) can be confusing to those with a classical education :-)
Not so much confusing as - I don't know what - off-putting. When I see "cum" to mean "come", I feel it's somehow been jargonized, as if the original metaphor has been dropped; and when that happens, I feel that something has been lost. As for using "cum" to mean fluids ... I just stop reading (assuming I've got that far).
Sorry if that sounds hideously opinionated. I'm just voicing my own private quirks. (Some of them.)
I'm with you on this one. I suspect that the use of "cum" was originally a spelling error, but was prevalent enough that novice writers thought it was the proper way to spell "come" in this particular context. What really sets my teeth on edge, though, is the past tense form "cummed;" blech! The propagation of this spelling looks to me like a good example of memetics; it's somewhat similar to the misplacement of a girl's hymen halfway up her vagina (a bit of anatomical ignorance so common in these groups that writers who know better sometimes mistake it for a genre convention). Later, Jacques

It's not halfway up her vagina; but it's not right at the entrance, either, as some other people seem to misapprehend. It's BEHIND the urethra, and far enough in (behind the labia) for the head of most penii to fit inside. (Not much more though.)

However, a person might get two inches inside (stretching the hymen) without breaking it. So, to a guy with a five-inch penis (not unusually short), it might SEEM halfway up ... Because his penis is almost halfway IN (not really the same thing).

So ... To a girl who has one, or somebody familiar with female anatomy, or has just seen a virgin, it's barely a quarter of the way inside, if that. To a guy with a normal penis, who never looked inside before fucking the girl, it might SEEM halfway in, because that's how far his penis got before it split; as the hymen usually STRETCHES quite a bit before tearing. (Not always. Some girls' hymens are almost unbelievably tough; while others tear with light exercise. I know of ONE girl who got fucked with over half of an eight-inch prick, and it never tore. She should have gone to see a doctor about that.)

So ... which person is really ignorant? The girl who describes it from what she knows she's got, or the guy who describes it from what he knows he FELT?

/ ' / ™
,-/-, . __ /

(/ / ((/|/ / </ <

 

From: oosh
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 03:02:16 GMT

Frank McCoy <mccoyf@millcomm.com> wrote in news:foi38u4942ema034u48k90ipv0jh12piuu@4ax.com:

It's not halfway up her vagina; but it's not right at the entrance, either, as some other people seem to misapprehend. It's BEHIND the urethra, and far enough in (behind the labia) for the head of most penii to fit inside. (Not much more though.)

Penii would be the plural of the non-existent Latin noun penius. The Latin plural, if you want to use it, is probably penes. I advise you to stick to English.

But compared with your knowledge of Latin ...

Well, only a man would have the courage to look BEHIND one's urethra ... (Just craning my cervix ...)

O.

 

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 13:21:35 -0600

On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 03:02:16 GMT, oosh <oosh@gmx.NOSPAM.net> wrote:

Frank McCoy <mccoyf@millcomm.com> wrote in news:foi38u4942ema034u48k90ipv0jh12piuu@4ax.com:
It's not halfway up her vagina; but it's not right at the entrance, either, as some other people seem to misapprehend. It's BEHIND the urethra, and far enough in (behind the labia) for the head of most penii to fit inside. (Not much more though.)
Penii would be the plural of the non-existent Latin noun penius. The Latin plural, if you want to use it, is probably penes. I advise you to stick to English.

Safer, at least. Unless you plan on going to medical school or such.

But compared with your knowledge of Latin ...
Well, only a man would have the courage to look BEHIND one's urethra ... (Just craning my cervix ...)

Hmm, with ultrasound you might be able to see it?

Maybe I read the wrong stories, but it seems to me that a lot of writers get the location pretty close. How much familiarity with the anatomy would you need to get it right?

Unclear descriptions and typos notwithstanding :00)

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

 

From: oosh
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 00:25:16 GMT

Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in news:3c83c96e$0$93061$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com:

Penii would be the plural of the non-existent Latin noun penius. The Latin plural, if you want to use it, is probably penes. I advise you to stick to English.
Safer, at least. Unless you plan on going to medical school or such.

Or such, I think. Nothing I've heard leads me to believe that the plural of "penis" is particularly useful in medical school. Unless my sources missed out badly ...

O.

 

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 20:01:35 -0600

On Tue, 05 Mar 2002 00:25:16 GMT, oosh <oosh@gmx.NOSPAM.net> wrote:

Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in news:3c83c96e$0$93061$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com:
Penii would be the plural of the non-existent Latin noun penius. The Latin plural, if you want to use it, is probably penes. I advise you to stick to English.
Safer, at least. Unless you plan on going to medical school or such.
Or such, I think. Nothing I've heard leads me to believe that the plural of "penis" is particularly useful in medical school. Unless my sources missed out badly ...

No, the learning Latin part. One could assume that the proper plural would be learned and used, and then the typical English-speaking reader would be thoroughly confused ;-)

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

 

From: Jacques LeBlanc
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: 4 Mar 2002 18:09:01 -0800

Frank McCoy <mccoyf@millcomm.com> wrote in message news:

It's not halfway up her vagina; but it's not right at the entrance, either, as some other people seem to misapprehend. It's BEHIND the urethra, and far enough in (behind the labia) for the head of most penii to fit inside. (Not much more though.)

Actually that is the entrance to the vagina; what it's inside is the urogenital cleft, which is not technically part of the vagina. Check out an anatomy text if don't believe me. (My father's a doctor; when I got old enough to be interested in the anatomical differences between the sexes, I turned not to pornography but to his old anatomy textbooks.)

So ... which person is really ignorant? The girl who describes it from what she knows she's got, or the guy who describes it from what he knows he FELT?

Actually, I think the ignorant one are mainly men who've never actually deflowered a virgin, perpetuating an impression they've picked up from previous stories by equally ignorant men. The bit about it being mistaken for a genre convention by writers who know better goes back to a conversation I had with Tanya last summer, in reference to (IIRC) her first story. Later,
Jacques

 

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 21:21:09 -0600

On Sun, 03 Mar 2002 02:46:39 GMT, oosh <oosh@gmx.NOSPAM.net> wrote:

Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in news:3c810e9e$0$1610$272ea4a1 @news.execpc.com:
Hmm, it does explain why using "cum" to mean orgasm (or the fluids released from it) can be confusing to those with a classical education :-)
Not so much confusing as - I don't know what - off-putting. When I see "cum" to mean "come", I feel it's somehow been jargonized, as if the original metaphor has been dropped; and when that happens, I feel that something has been lost. As for using "cum" to mean fluids ... I just stop reading (assuming I've got that far).
Sorry if that sounds hideously opinionated. I'm just voicing my own private quirks. (Some of them.)

It isn't easy to get rid of something that people have been using for a while. I just don't know why it got used, as the term comes from the word "come," and the alternative spelling can be confusing.

That spell checkers get confused at times too might suggest that it shouldn't be used. But they can get confused about other sex words, especially slang, so that isn't a sure sign./

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

 

From: PleaseCain
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: 05 Mar 2002 05:18:46 GMT

Way past the comment deadline here, sorry, but one more positive I want to mention about this story: great title. An alluring title sucks you right in, and, well, Cassie's Lips ...

Bullseye.

Cain

 

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:49:44 -0600

On 4 Mar 2002 18:09:01 -0800, fader2011@hotmail.com (Jacques LeBlanc) wrote:

Frank McCoy <mccoyf@millcomm.com> wrote in message news:
It's not halfway up her vagina; but it's not right at the entrance, either, as some other people seem to misapprehend. It's BEHIND the urethra, and far enough in (behind the labia) for the head of most penii to fit inside. (Not much more though.)
Actually that is the entrance to the vagina; what it's inside is the urogenital cleft, which is not technically part of the vagina. Check out an anatomy text if don't believe me. (My father's a doctor; when I got old enough to be interested in the anatomical differences between the sexes, I turned not to pornography but to his old anatomy textbooks.)

If you want to get technical ...

 ... which can't hurt for a writer who wants to use detailed descriptions. I prefer a more generic "not very far" to describe the distance of penetration before the barrier is encountered, rather than trying to measure it precisely.

Or even less precisely than that, as I showed Bill trying to find it in "My Niece's Christmas Spanking." Somewhere in an afterword, perhaps, I should have made some footnote about his inability to determine for certain that the girl was a virgin. Visual and tactile examination might find resistance without the barrier being intact. A real gyno exam should do it, but the average guy fumbling around?

Except that if I got into that, it would have grown, trying to explain how inaccurate the "hymen test" can be as a measure of virginity. Even if the girl hasn't had sexual intercourse yet, the hymen could be eliminated by other means, not all of which require sex of any sort.

The most important thing is having a nice time for the first time. It helps if the partner is nice about it, aware that it may hurt, but it can hurt even without a hymen to tear. Tenderness and care are always good things.

A smart girl can lose her "virginity" many times if she finds guys who have a thing about doing that to girls. I'd bet that most guys wouldn't spot the deception. Those who might could, as I tend to, take the girl at her word, not caring about any particular physical evidence to prove the assertion.

A while back I asked for some opinions about the pain vs. pleasure aspects of first intercourse. That is a different thing, but I was trying to write a story about a girl going into sex ignorant of the mechanics, and I was looking for more insights than my own experiences.

The net result, though, wasn't much different than my own memories. Not every girl I knew explained the thing in full detail, but the final answer was "it varies a lot." More I think than the physical differences in the organs of both sexes. For stories, that leaves a lot of leeway for variety.

But not to the realm of anatomical impossibilities. Though it seems traditional to exaggerate dimensions in many things in sex stories, so I'm willing to accept some unusual stats as possible. If you read the right (or wrong) stories, you have little choice about such figures.

So ... which person is really ignorant? The girl who describes it from what she knows she's got, or the guy who describes it from what he knows he FELT?
Actually, I think the ignorant one are mainly men who've never actually deflowered a virgin, perpetuating an impression they've picked up from previous stories by equally ignorant men. The bit about it being mistaken for a genre convention by writers who know better goes back to a conversation I had with Tanya last summer, in reference to (IIRC) her first story.

Some odd things show up in fantasies, too. I mean, by people who know that things aren't really that way, not just those who have no experience or education to teach them otherwise. Genre conventions can work that way.

Sometimes I think I should try more to note when things are realistic or not.

One other thing: If the girl doesn't mention that it is her first time, does the boy figure it out before, during, after, or never? How many tales deal with this particular bit of "detective" work? If the girl mentions it, then it is natural to pay a bit more attention to the sensations.

But my experience is that sometimes you just don't notice, or it isn't enough to make a big deal about. At least, from the POV of the male's sensations in the act.

Wait! What are the conventions, just in case I want to follow them?

Let's see: The guy can easily tell that the virgin is a virgin, by quick touch or by the resistance on attepting penetration. Inexperienced boys, even virgin boys, are just as capable as older experienced men in this regard.

The aforementioned depth of penetration before hitting the thing, being great enough that in theory, the boy could "do it" to completion without needing to go that far (especially one who is rather short down there).

You need to change the sheets/clothes afterward to get rid of the blood.

It always hurts like hell for the girl when it happens.

But afterward, she ends up enjoying the experience immensely, and gets an orgasm or three (or more in some stories).

All virgin girls always have an easily detectable hymen, regardless of athletic actions and masturbation, including deep finger penetration or the use of toys prior to having real sex for the first time.

Others? There probably are more.

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

 

From: oosh
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 23:37:49 GMT

Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in news:3c851596$0$35572$272ea4a1 @news.execpc.com:

Others? There probably are more.

I believe it's supposed to make an audible popping sound. You can make a similar sound by putting your finger sideways between your lips, palm outward, making a vacuum and then drawing the tip of your finger forward and out.

O.

 

From: spline duck
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 01:29:20 GMT

Sorry to be late with a reply. RL (partly in the form of this year's flu virus) interfered.

Like Dr. Spin, I have to say that this has been a great experience. Thank you all who participated! The complements were nice, but the criticisms are great, too. Some of them were right on, and others were due to deficiencies in my writing. Sometimes, the latter were caused by my cutting text. Perhaps some would be interested in the backstory of this tale.

In part, I proposed this to Des because there had just been an active discussion of the POV gender used in stories. Here was a story where the gender of the narrator was never mentioned or hinted at, but in the past, some readers had clearly made a different assumption than I had. Plus, every time I read this story, it's complete in my mind, but it seems like a good start for a longer one. We thought there might be some interesting suggestions.

Janey proposed a flash fiction event for the celebration the anniversary of the revitalization of ASSM. In her original note to me, she mentioned that she wanted it to be for 300 words, but the other planners thought that was too strict and opted for 500. I thought it would be fun to go for 300. I had one idea for the story, but I never finished it. While I was working, I found that a close relative had nude pictures on the internet (about a dozen). My mind wandered to what it must be like to find those, especially if they are more active than just nudes. Then I thought of the quite popular home-made, amateur sex videos that are widely available. If you liked those, it might be quite interesting to later meet up with a relative who had made one that you had seen.

In my family, the many cousins range over various ages. Some cousins are two generations apart. So the idea was for an older married woman to meet up with a younger cousin who she had not seen for a number of years. The young girl would have changed, married, and would have been bold enough to have made the sex video.

In editing down to 300 words, first the age difference and then the gender of the narrator had to go. I liked the idea of removing the gender definition because I thought it would add a sense of mystery. Clearly, I was wrong. Everyone seems to assume that the narrator is male.

One of the things I'm considering doing is to lengthen the story just a bit. I might put together several versions where some of the choices are changed. In one, they might be similar ages and same gender. In another, the narrator will be male. And so on. Janey wanted me to make the home videos be an annual event of the family reunion. I couldn't seem to make that work.

I want to repeat that I thought the critiques were well thought-out. Some of the problems that readers had were due to my having a different point of view than they had. In particular, the last two lines bothered several people

"It's so good to see you. I'm looking forward to learning all about you."

"And, I'm looking forward to learning all about you," I replied.

To me, they set just the right tone for a pair of women in two generations. Reading it as a man and a woman of similar age (as readers do), it does need work.

Celia found the first sentence weird and needed to reread it, and Nick also noticed the multiple levels within it. Celia's reaction is just what I like-disorientation, but just enough information to get straight. I need to think more about Nick's comments.

Celia also had the idea that Janey had of watching the family sex videos at a reunion. It should make a great story for someone else to write. I think I'll just clarify that it had happened a few months before (I AM the author, after all).

A couple of people commented on particular phrases like, "dealt with the flow." How right you are! That one especially needs work.

"California! Californians!" Well, I had hoped that everyone knew that Californians are more likely to hug or kiss you, sometimes aggressively. Jeff got it exactly as I meant it. I shouldn't have assumed; I'll probably add a line to explain that a bit.

Again, thank you all for your input, and thanks especially to Des for hosting the FishTank; it's a great idea.

Duck

When you edit out concave/convex, it's pretty hard to tell the boys from the girls.

Spline Duck's stories can be found at:
www.asstr.org/~duck

splineduck@hotmail.com

 

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 21:13:14 -0600

On Thu, 07 Mar 2002 01:29:20 GMT, splineduck@hotmail.com (Spline Duck) wrote:

In part, I proposed this to Des because there had just been an active discussion of the POV gender used in stories. Here was a story where the gender of the narrator was never mentioned or hinted at, but in the past, some readers had clearly made a different assumption than I had. Plus, every time I read this story, it's complete in my mind, but it seems like a good start for a longer one. We thought there might be some interesting suggestions.

The assumption of unspecified gender does require some guessing and hinting. To me, the clincher - not a perfect one I'll admit - was the memory appreciation of the male/female sex scene. While either sex can appreciate that sort of scene, the obvious attraction in it for the girl was a sign of inclination.

Not of gender, though. I got a second clue from the enthusiastic kiss, and appreciation for it. But again, all that it indicated for certain was that the narrating character liked being kissed by girls.

Maybe we collectively reinforced this assumption as well? I don't know, the story works fine either way, for the part we see.

Hmm, only other issue for me is a natural tendency to read a 1st person POV character as myself, and to go against that assumption only if I find evidence of differences. There really wasn't any clue here either way, but if I, for some reason, wasn't the sort to be turned on by kissing girls I might well have made a different assumption.

In my family, the many cousins range over various ages. Some cousins are two generations apart. So the idea was for an older married woman to meet up with a younger cousin who she had not seen for a number of years. The young girl would have changed, married, and would have been bold enough to have made the sex video.

Age differences like that aren't so rare. I've a few aunts and uncles younger than I, and cousins - especially if you go into 2nd and beyond - can easily have big age gaps. That wasn't a problem for me, to have a younger cousin not well recognized.

On the other hand, nothing in the tale suggested a big age difference to me.

I want to repeat that I thought the critiques were well thought-out. Some of the problems that readers had were due to my having a different point of view than they had. In particular, the last two lines bothered several people
"It's so good to see you. I'm looking forward to learning all about you."
"And, I'm looking forward to learning all about you," I replied.
To me, they set just the right tone for a pair of women in two generations. Reading it as a man and a woman of similar age (as readers do), it does need work.

I think that even for two women of similar age, it suggests a lack of prior familiarity. An age gap makes it easier to have Cassie be just a child, and therefore unlikely to have been a friend to the adult. It also easily explains how Cassie recognized her cousin, but not vice versa.

"California! Californians!" Well, I had hoped that everyone knew that Californians are more likely to hug or kiss you, sometimes aggressively. Jeff got it exactly as I meant it. I shouldn't have assumed; I'll probably add a line to explain that a bit.

I think that the thing is something a non-native visiting California, or knowing Californians, would just take for granted.

For the rest, check out "LA Story," a nice Steve Martin romantic comedy. Set in LA, which is in California.

It has a nice kissing-greeting scene applied to a visitor from England (I think, I might want to check it out to refresh my memories), and it also had a great "Earthquake in the restaurant" scene.

I don't know if I should spoil it. But it has been out a while. Anyway, my first earthquake in CA I noticed the same reactions: I wondered what the hell was going on with all that shaking, and the natives just went on talking just as though it was perfectly ordinary for the floor to sway and glasses to shake during a tremor.

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

 

From: dennyw
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:26:16 -0800

On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 21:13:14 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> held forth, saying:

the
natives just went on talking just as though it was perfectly ordinary for the floor to sway and glasses to shake during a tremor.

You mean it's not?

-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor

Never try to outstubborn a cat.  - Lazarus Long

 

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 12:03:05 -0600

On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:26:16 -0800, dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net wrote:

On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 21:13:14 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> held forth, saying:
the
natives just went on talking just as though it was perfectly ordinary for the floor to sway and glasses to shake during a tremor.
You mean it's not?

No, it isn't. The kind of tremors which are normal shouldn't shake the house that much. You know, like when a big truck drives by, or there is an explosion in a nearby factory, ordinary things like that :0)

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

 

From: dennyw
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 14:02:36 -0800

On Thu, 07 Mar 2002 12:03:05 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> held forth, saying:

On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:26:16 -0800, dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net wrote:
On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 21:13:14 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> held forth, saying:
the
natives just went on talking just as though it was perfectly ordinary for the floor to sway and glasses to shake during a tremor.
You mean it's not?
No, it isn't. The kind of tremors which are normal shouldn't shake the house that much. You know, like when a big truck drives by, or there is an explosion in a nearby factory, ordinary things like that :0)

Coulda fooled me.
<not in Cal, but the ground in WA shakes now and then, too>

-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor

Never try to outstubborn a cat.  - Lazarus Long

 

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 18:28:07 -0600

On Thu, 07 Mar 2002 14:02:36 -0800, dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net wrote:

On Thu, 07 Mar 2002 12:03:05 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> held forth, saying:
On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:26:16 -0800, dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net wrote:
On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 21:13:14 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> held forth, saying:
the
natives just went on talking just as though it was perfectly ordinary for the floor to sway and glasses to shake during a tremor.
You mean it's not?
No, it isn't. The kind of tremors which are normal shouldn't shake the house that much. You know, like when a big truck drives by, or there is an explosion in a nearby factory, ordinary things like that :0)
Coulda fooled me.
<not in Cal, but the ground in WA shakes now and then, too>

Sure, and there are other places where you have that bit of natural excitement (or lack of excitement if you've lived with it forever). But for those who never felt it, the experience can be rather exciting, unsettling, even frightening. The natives get to make fun of you of course.

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

 

From: Conjugate
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:19:42 -0500

"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3c8805cb$0$93061$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ...

On Thu, 07 Mar 2002 14:02:36 -0800, dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net wrote:
Coulda fooled me.
<not in Cal, but the ground in WA shakes now and then, too>
Sure, and there are other places where you have that bit of natural excitement (or lack of excitement if you've lived with it forever). But for those who never felt it, the experience can be rather exciting, unsettling, even frightening. The natives get to make fun of you of course.

Indeed, sometimes the non-natives get to make fun of the natives. I remember that I lived in Illinois for a time, back in the Long-Ago Days Of My Youth (TM), and one day felt my apartment building shaking. I went out of my apartment, and saw that the light fixtures throughout the building were waving back and forth. My first thought was that some large piece of earth-moving equipment, say a bulldozer, was pushing gently and rhythmically on our building for some reason unknown. I, and others who lived there, went outside to determine the cause. We were teased by a Californian, who had not even thought it worth commenting on. Of course, the New Madrid fault is usually a lot less active that San Andreas, but at that time it had decided to flex its muscles, so to speak, and I never forgot it.

Conjugate

 

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Cassie's Lips, by Spline Duck
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:00:59 -0600

On Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:19:42 -0500, "Conjugate" <conjugate@butter.toast.net> wrote:

"Jeff Zephyr" <jeffzeph@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3c8805cb$0$93061$272ea4a1@news.execpc.com ... On Thu, 07 Mar 2002 14:02:36 -0800, dennyw@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net wrote:
Coulda fooled me.
<not in Cal, but the ground in WA shakes now and then, too>
Sure, and there are other places where you have that bit of natural excitement (or lack of excitement if you've lived with it forever). But for those who never felt it, the experience can be rather exciting, unsettling, even frightening. The natives get to make fun of you of course.
Indeed, sometimes the non-natives get to make fun of the natives. I remember that I lived in Illinois for a time, back in the Long-Ago Days Of My Youth (TM), and one day felt my apartment building shaking. I went out of my apartment, and saw that the light fixtures throughout the building were waving back and forth. My first thought was that some large piece of earth-moving equipment, say a bulldozer, was pushing gently and rhythmically on our building for some reason unknown. I, and others who lived there, went outside to determine the cause. We were teased by a Californian, who had not even thought it worth commenting on. Of course, the New Madrid fault is usually a lot less active that San Andreas, but at that time it had decided to flex its muscles, so to speak, and I never forgot it.

Yes, those away from the active earthquake areas naturally get very surprised when they get some. The quakes don't "advertise" their presence, but the potential for some pretty big shakes is there in many places well outside the quake belts.

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

 

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